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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #41  
Old 08-09-2010, 3:21 PM
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zeke2517 zeke2517 is offline
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im not trying to be a jerk here. I think training on your individual weapon system is the most important thing you can do, but you must do it safely. If there are extreme stressors in this class i would recommend against it. Intense stressors put on your "regular everyday normal guy" (see youtube video) would cause a problem known as dysfunctional stress. This stress will cause somone, who is not prepared for it, to become incapable of doing anything but breathe or run (fight or flight). Now add ammo and testosterone, and you have what could be a dangerous situation.
I know this sounds like an extreme slippery slope argument, but it is possible. Stressors should be put into the Carbine II+ Class, and advertised accordingly. just my .02.

Thanks Zeke
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Last edited by zeke2517; 08-09-2010 at 3:23 PM..
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  #42  
Old 08-09-2010, 4:55 PM
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Wow, some people need to grow a pair!
Big boy rules. A little yelling and screaming is part of the process. The day the Drill Instructors will have to be PC, is the day the MIL looses its way!.
If you come out as a civilian, expect to to be given the same treatment as everyone else regardless of background.
I am pretty positive Mark Semos got yelled at a lot while going through BUDs etc!
Think of it as a free motivational performance enhancer

Last edited by lehn20; 08-09-2010 at 5:27 PM..
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  #43  
Old 08-09-2010, 6:26 PM
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Baby steps, folks. One does not need to disparage those who are not used to and / or do not appreciate being taught something as novices by extreme verbal commandments. The idea should be to patiently foster familiarity with the weapon systems so that the student understands, gets excited about and is able to accomplish the necessary manipulations safely albeit slowly at first. Stress can be added later in Carbine II.

The idea that some are not cut out for it is subjective based purely on a day or so of training. Imagine if we all thought that there are some who should not be driving automobiles at all but the law says that if they are able to pass the necessary written and driving tests you're obligated to give them a driver's license. A car is an extremely dangerous weapon.

Last edited by ramzar; 08-09-2010 at 6:50 PM..
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  #44  
Old 08-10-2010, 3:08 AM
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This class ranked about a 2 of 10 on the "stress and abuse" scale..

You can't make an appointment for a gun fight. You can't ask the bad guys to be nice because you have yet to take carbine II...

Your learning how to fight for your life. The last thing I want is to be nice.
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  #45  
Old 08-11-2010, 7:47 PM
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I have taken 3 courses at ITTS. I will tell you, they were all pretty much fantastic. I had Scott and Mark at two of them, and Scotty at just one.

At zero times did I have zero problems with any instruction. These are the professionals! If you put a weapon in your hand, ensure that most people usually won't be taking nice when that happens!

I enjoyed my training and I am in line to do this again. These guys have a fantastic regimen. If your mom still folds your boxers, or if you can't make it to the range on time, stay home. I never had a safety issue because there aren't any at Eagles Nest. I watched a few very new shooters get some classic instruction, and they were first rate delivering it from the staff.

Enjoy it and embrace it. I have taken numerous courses at many stops. These guys add to skills you might never own. Show up, be safe, and work it!!!
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  #46  
Old 08-11-2010, 9:09 PM
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OK OK Ok. . Relax everyone. The point I am trying to make is that these are paying customers for an INTRO class, these are NOT US Military people. If they were, they would be in the military. 1) I wasnt even in the class. 2) I agree with stressors while shooting during intense training, but NOT in a intro Carbine I class given to well paying civialians who were either not expecting stress, or dont want stress. I only decided to engage in this argument becuase i saw posts on this thread from members that WERE IN the class and didnt like it. So decided to help them make their point.
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  #47  
Old 08-12-2010, 6:55 AM
bb2007 bb2007 is offline
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wow. this thread is still going?

gonna dip my foot in the pool here:

regardless of an instructor's experience or teaching style, when a student pays for a class to learn, it is the instructor's responsibility to make sure that the student advances their knowledge to the best of the instructor's ability to teach.

example: your gf wants to learn how to shoot a handgun. while you bootcamp guys might like being "yelled at" and "stressors", i am pretty sure that such a style will not go over well with your gf. you have to instruct on the level of the student, not on the level that you would like to instruct at.

if the instructor knew that 8 of the 11 students were complete novices, would it not be wise to match the instruction level? this is where the number of instructors comes into play. if a school has more than one instructor, then it is possible to provide multiple levels of instruction per the students present.

i have taken my level I carbine courses at a different school (not to be named) that often has 3 - 4 instructors present at each class. While the course syllabus has remained the same, my education has progressed because the instructors have been able to match my drills to my ability even with novices present.

disparaging the student does not solve the inherent problem present. simply put, more instructors were needed at that particular class. i have to confirm, but i believe that even the NRA would not recommend an 11:1 student:instructor ratio. (just goes to show how popular of a course ITTS offers.)

(if you search for ramzar's posts, he wrote about a recent shotgun class that he attended where there were 3 instructors for 5 students. he clearly was able to appreciate how much the novice students were able to learn and progress as a result of such hands on instruction.)
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  #48  
Old 08-13-2010, 7:15 AM
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Well Said "BB2007"
I hope ITTS gets the point.
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  #49  
Old 08-16-2010, 10:07 PM
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Ever take a Larry Vickers class? You'll get some great skills out of it too, but be READY for the language. Oh... and it's billed as a beginner class too.

I've taken many courses from Uncle Scotty over the past few years. I've also taken courses from many of the top tiered instructors throughout the nation. Uncle Scotty is local and ranks amongst the best of them. I believe he is the best for what I am looking for. I'd probably split my time and budget if Paul Howe (CSAT) was local to me also.

Your going to find some language in an Uncle Scotty class, no doubt about it. I've been in advanced classes where guy's billed themselves as being better trained than they were coming into it. When Uncle Scotty sees it he calls it. Sometimes he even has to let the person know that they will be better off in a lower class and (from my personal observation) seems to comp them. Other times he stays on the student like a hawk and makes sure the rest of us stay safe, while allowing the class to move forward into advanced drills/shoot houses, etc.

I personally will get the brunt of Uncle Scotty's language. Sometimes it makes me embarrased because I have been "called out" in front of the group. Oh well... guess what? I get better because of it.

I can personally attest that twice now I have had to call upon many of the things that Uncle Scotty has taught me in order to return to my family. One skill in particular I had to call on what I am working hard at owning because Uncle Scotty will call me on it at every class. I am personally glad that he puts it out there because it helped me recognize a short coming... one which I had to call on under an extreme period of duress and not in a training environment.

Uncle Scotty teaches gun fighting... sometimes foul language flows with it.

I recall being at one professional's class in which some students were just not performing. The students put themselves under a lot of stress to meet some very stringent requirements. The professional told the rest of us to watch them for not only safety but also a mental breakdown and to be prepared to act accordingly. In the end these students worked hard enough to earn their completion of the course and were given certificates of completion and not certificates of attendance.

This stuff isn't for the faint hearted.
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