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  #1  
Old 03-30-2011, 6:08 PM
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Default *UPDATED AGAIN**See 1st Post* For you guys that get to carry your personal weapon....

*UPDATE 10-21-2011*

Plans changed and we didn't get what we wanted... Not even close. In fact, it may be worse in the future but that is still to be determined. We are getting new weapons, which I believe will be Sigs. I was supposed to set up a T&E with the four most popular choices amongst our guys (p226, g22, xdm40, m&p40) but the time frame for quotes was pushed up to next week so that will be out of the question...

The decision was made to purchase each deputy two (2) weapons, one for duty one for off duty/plain cloths/undercover work. With the proper amount of extras, that will be a purchase of about 40 weapons.

When asked if we would be required to carry a dept issued weapon off duty, the answer was, "your not required to carry an off duty weapon." I really think once the new weapons are here, we will be forced to carry that weapon off duty if we carry.

Tough budget times... New weapons, holsters and tac lights are not cheap... We were willing to buy our own stuff, but the powers that be thought otherwise.

*UPDATE*

Well, we got some good news yesterday. I pinned down admin and pretty much demanded an answer (in the nicest way possible). They were discussing another project and the need for it based on officer safety. I used that as an opening since I was told a month ago it wouldn't be touched until November. Anyways, here are the restrictions we were given...

My only restrictions on the personal weapon for duty carry program is the following:



∑ List of approved weapons is limited to brands that are known for reliability

∑ No locked and cocked single action autos

∑ No revolvers

∑ Everyone agrees on a single caliber. I would prefer .40 since county will still provide weapons to some officers

∑ Officers will provide proof of annual armorís inspection/service. Failure to provide results in personal carry suspension (must carry agency weapon) or discipline.

∑ Prohibition of personal ammo use for duty



I'd say that's a pretty big win considering EVERY deputy told me to not even bother when I 1st pursued the issue. I'm pretty stoked right now! Now I get to write the policy (which is pretty much already finished). I was given a dead line of 11-30-2011 for it to go into effect this fiscal year... My goal is to have it in effect by our next range date... A month away.

Only thing I really wish we could change (besides single action, but hey, save that battle for another day!) is the single caliber. Most of the guys still want .40, but a few of us really like the 9mm (myself included) and a few like the .45.


**ORIGINAL POST**

I was recently assigned to the range staff, and we just hit admin with the issues we are having with our duty weapons (USP40). We got them to consider the option of carrying what we want, within a few basic guide lines. Basically, we need to knock all doubt they may have out of the park!

What is your departments policy, and would you email it to me? I would give you my work email via PM if you would be willing to do so. If that doesn't work for you, could you give me your range masters contact???

Also, have you had any officer involved shootings at your department? Was there any questions or concerns about the officer carrying his/her own weapon?

Any input would be great, and can be done via pm if you prefer. Thanks.
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Last edited by fullrearview; 10-21-2011 at 11:57 PM.. Reason: Update
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:29 PM
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Out of curiosity, what issues are there with the USP40s, assuming there's no legal issue preventing you from discussing it in an open forum?
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Old 03-31-2011, 8:55 AM
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Out of curiosity, what issues are there with the USP40s, assuming there's no legal issue preventing you from discussing it in an open forum?
None at all.

Only one deputy is "ok" with the weapon for starters, but it was the first handgun he has ever trained on...

Right now, most of them are having huge feeding issues (Iwas having as many as 8 out of 100 rounds). It has only happened with practice ammo, but they are going on 11 years old, and to my knowledge, none of them have seen an armorer since they left the factory (With the exception of mine, and one other right now.)

There is little to no accessories for them... We have a hard time locating holsters for them, let alone light bearing holsters. Safariland makes them, but they are hard to get, and some times take months. When I first started, I was lucky one of our NARCS was a lefty, so he wasn't using his... I was off FTO before I got my holster... Actually, I think I got my 1st step increase before I got my holster.
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Old 03-31-2011, 9:15 AM
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Range staff has to approve the firearm for duty or off-duty carry. That happens by first giving the Range Officer in charge the firearm for an inspection, with his OK then you qualify with that firearm per that quarters applicable course of fire.

I am guessing that HK would want a periodic (annual?) armorer check of your USPs and that is probably why you are having the problems.

My current opinion on Range Staff is they should carry the same duty firearm as the line officers.

FWIW The Glock is a tremendous platform and well used in the LE community, hence the accessoris for them are plentiful.
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Old 03-31-2011, 9:37 AM
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We have to shoot what we carry on and off duty at least every 3 months at our range.

Have to carry JHP ammo
Have to use factory magazines
Have to use holsters that secure it well ( on and off duty)

And unless working there is NO OPEN CARRY for us. Even if the badge is on the belt next to the gun.
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
Range staff has to approve the firearm for duty or off-duty carry. That happens by first giving the Range Officer in charge the firearm for an inspection, with his OK then you qualify with that firearm per that quarters applicable course of fire.

I am guessing that HK would want a periodic (annual?) armorer check of your USPs and that is probably why you are having the problems.

My current opinion on Range Staff is they should carry the same duty firearm as the line officers.

FWIW The Glock is a tremendous platform and well used in the LE community, hence the accessoris for them are plentiful.
I don't care for Glock personally, but I don't have thousands of rounds down range with them either... We are going to new weapons, it's just a matter of what and when. I mentioned Glock, knowing they are good weapons and you can buy the kitchen sink for them... Only one guy would prefer to carry it, and the rest scoffed at the idea. We all have different things we like about our weapons, and being a small department, we have the ability to have most of our deputies T&E different makes models etc... That being said, we could save several ten of thousands of dollars if we carried personal weapons, so we are using that angle as well.

We have spoken to HK since this issue came about, and the kinda turned up their nose at us... What sucks with them as well is, they only offer a 1 year warranty on their firearms to LEO agencies. There are so many things we don't like about the usp40, we wouldn't even consider going back to them.

That being said, with our current range staff, me coming on board, we are jumping 25-30 years in training and weapons maintenance... Just this year is the 1st time we have had any in house armorers at our department, and right now its just for Shotgun and AR.
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:14 AM
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PM sent
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Old 03-31-2011, 5:50 PM
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On my department all that was necessary for an officer to carry his personally owned firearm was a letter to the COP and you had to qualify with it. Officers who wanted to carry their own weapons that were different than either of the issue firearms had to supply their own holsters and mag carriers/speed loader carriers. If they carried their personal firearms that were the same as what was issued, the department would supply leather.

The department issued Colt Gov't .45's and later, H&K UPS in .45. You could carry anything (with one exception by one manufacturer) but it had to be .45 ACP. We had guys carrying several models of S & W revolvers, Glocks, A few Sigs, and various models of Colt clones, including Kimbers, Para Ords, Rock Island and others. Several carried customized models by various gunsmiths.

If you were working some specialized assignments, vice and narcotics for example, the gate was pretty much open as to caliber (as long as it was .380 or larger) and brand. Same for backup guns. But for either, you had to qualify with it and get authorization from the COP before carrying was allowed.

We never had an issue arise after a shooting where an officer was carrying his own gun in my 25 years there.
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Old 03-31-2011, 7:42 PM
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Sent you an email and a PM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
On my department all that was necessary for an officer to carry his personally owned firearm was a letter to the COP and you had to qualify with it. Officers who wanted to carry their own weapons that were different than either of the issue firearms had to supply their own holsters and mag carriers/speed loader carriers. If they carried their personal firearms that were the same as what was issued, the department would supply leather.

The department issued Colt Gov't .45's and later, H&K UPS in .45. You could carry anything (with one exception by one manufacturer) but it had to be .45 ACP. We had guys carrying several models of S & W revolvers, Glocks, A few Sigs, and various models of Colt clones, including Kimbers, Para Ords, Rock Island and others. Several carried customized models by various gunsmiths.

If you were working some specialized assignments, vice and narcotics for example, the gate was pretty much open as to caliber (as long as it was .380 or larger) and brand. Same for backup guns. But for either, you had to qualify with it and get authorization from the COP before carrying was allowed.

We never had an issue arise after a shooting where an officer was carrying his own gun in my 25 years there.
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:32 PM
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Thanks again to everyone! It is very much appreciated!
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Old 04-01-2011, 4:36 AM
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I have heard others complain about HK customer service issues. You need to point out the department's liability in issuing a firearm that the range staff has identified as unreliable. Is your chief ready to look a widow in the eyes and tell her he knew her dead husband's gun had problems? Many smaller departments will allow officers to carry their own guns as long as the gun is of a recognized, quality name and in a specified caliber. For example Beretta, Glock, Smith, Colt in 9, 40 or 45.


All guns should be inspected by department armorer before being carried on duty.
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Old 04-01-2011, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cantcme View Post
I have heard others complain about HK customer service issues. You need to point out the department's liability in issuing a firearm that the range staff has identified as unreliable. Is your chief ready to look a widow in the eyes and tell her he knew her dead husband's gun had problems? Many smaller departments will allow officers to carry their own guns as long as the gun is of a recognized, quality name and in a specified caliber. For example Beretta, Glock, Smith, Colt in 9, 40 or 45.


All guns should be inspected by department armorer before being carried on duty.
Throughly agree. I investigated officer involved shootings for my agency (we had about 8 or 9 during my tenure) The DA reviewed every case and their first question was always what type of weapon and was it departmently authorized. There are several liability issues with using unapproved firearms that have not been checked by the armory. It also gives defense or plantiff lawyers one more issue they can hit you with. That especially holds true for ammo that is out of the norm.

Last edited by Claymar; 04-01-2011 at 9:08 PM..
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Old 04-02-2011, 7:24 AM
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Our department has a weapon matrix which basically lists all the approved manufacturers, calibers, and barrel lengths. It is classified as to on duty, off duty, semi automatic, revolver, shotgun, and rifle. We also have a committee that reviews the list every year to make changes as needed.
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Old 04-02-2011, 8:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fullrearview View Post
I was recently assigned to the range staff, and we just hit admin with the issues we are having with our duty weapons (USP40). We got them to consider the option of carrying what we want, within a few basic guide lines. Basically, we need to knock all doubt they may have out of the park!

What is your departments policy, and would you email it to me? I would give you my work email via PM if you would be willing to do so. If that doesn't work for you, could you give me your range masters contact???

We can private purchase duty weapons but they must be off an approved list. You must qualify and get the weapon inspected by the armory prior to deployment

Also, have you had any officer involved shootings at your department? Was there any questions or concerns about the officer carrying his/her own weapon?

Lots of shootings and no issues. If you get caught with an illegally modified trigger or using non approved extras expect to take days.

Any input would be great, and can be done via pm if you prefer. Thanks.
Approaching it from a cost savings point is probably the best idea
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Old 04-02-2011, 5:12 PM
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Private duty weapons only from an approved list. Department armorer has to inspect it. No unauthorized modifications. Only can add night sights, taclight or laser, and grips or sleeve. Must qualify same as issued weapon. Same policy as personally owned off duty or backups, really. Very simple policy.

I think the specifics are that the barrel must exceed 4" but not longer than 6" for both pistols and revolvers so that eliminates the G19 which is authorized on a case by case basis for females or males with small girly hands.
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Old 04-03-2011, 11:04 AM
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I found out over my long career that if you ask 10 officers what handgun they would like to carry you are going to get 9 different answers!!!
You can't please everyone and the HK is a good handgun. I prefer a Glock however, but it was many years before my department authorized Glocks.

To my knowledge no manufacturer guarantees that the handgun will function with reloads or low quality ammo. If you are getting problems with your duty ammo, that's another story.

With today's economy and liability issues it's no surprise that your department want's to remain it's current status. How many shootings does your department get into a year and has the HK ever failed it a life and death situation?
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Old 04-03-2011, 1:18 PM
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I found out over my long career that if you ask 10 officers what handgun they would like to carry you are going to get 9 different answers!!!
You can't please everyone and the HK is a good handgun. I prefer a Glock however, but it was many years before my department authorized Glocks.

To my knowledge no manufacturer guarantees that the handgun will function with reloads or low quality ammo. If you are getting problems with your duty ammo, that's another story.

With today's economy and liability issues it's no surprise that your department want's to remain it's current status. How many shootings does your department get into a year and has the HK ever failed it a life and death situation?
Why should things wait to be changed AFTER a shooting. Having them in service for 11 years and never seeing an armorer, if a deputy was to get into a shooting, that deputies wife would own the department.

As far as asking 10 different officers wanting 9 different weapons... Why not? From a cost stand point, there is no argument.

From a liability stand point, it would be no different. Actually, if a deputy can improve his groupings, even by 1/2 an inch, could be the difference between life and death for the officer, suspect or an innocent bystander. And again, going to a cost standpoint, the deputy would be responsible for the annual armorer's inspection.
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Old 04-03-2011, 4:17 PM
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Why should things wait to be changed AFTER a shooting. Having them in service for 11 years and never seeing an armorer, if a deputy was to get into a shooting, that deputies wife would own the department.

As far as asking 10 different officers wanting 9 different weapons... Why not? From a cost stand point, there is no argument.

From a liability stand point, it would be no different. Actually, if a deputy can improve his groupings, even by 1/2 an inch, could be the difference between life and death for the officer, suspect or an innocent bystander. And again, going to a cost standpoint, the deputy would be responsible for the annual armorer's inspection.

As far after fixing something after a problem becomes apparent is due to the old saying "it it's not broke why fix it". If your current firearm and ammo does the job I see no problem, only personnel preference.
The additional expense comes from now having a department armorer who is an expert is many, many different handguns not just the one approved! You may say "why not', but these are all costs that you have to train all of your armorers that could lead to liability if not handled correctly. My Beretta and later my S&W 45 went for 8 and 10 years without an armorers inspection and continue to work today 6 years after retirement!

You did not say how many shootings your department has in one year and if a problem happened due to the current weapon or ammo. I would guess nothing negative happened and this is only personnel preference. It's nice to have a choice but departments have other things to look at that are giving them problems, like cars and radios and misc equipment that is used daily. I am looking at this from the perspective of a supervisor on a large department but the issues are the same. Once again you can't please everyone!
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Old 04-03-2011, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
As far after fixing something after a problem becomes apparent is due to the old saying "it it's not broke why fix it". If your current firearm and ammo does the job I see no problem, only personnel preference.
The additional expense comes from now having a department armorer who is an expert is many, many different handguns not just the one approved! You may say "why not', but these are all costs that you have to train all of your armorers that could lead to liability if not handled correctly. My Beretta and later my S&W 45 went for 8 and 10 years without an armorers inspection and continue to work today 6 years after retirement!

You did not say how many shootings your department has in one year and if a problem happened due to the current weapon or ammo. I would guess nothing negative happened and this is only personnel preference. It's nice to have a choice but departments have other things to look at that are giving them problems, like cars and radios and misc equipment that is used daily. I am looking at this from the perspective of a supervisor on a large department but the issues are the same. Once again you can't please everyone!
Maybe I should clarify a bit... No one in our department is or has been an armorer until recently... Now, we have two, both are qualified for the 870 and AR-15. If we carry what we want, our proposed plan requires the deputy to get it inspected on his own dime, saving even more time and money.

The brass is planning on going to new weapons in the near future, but we hear everyday about our budget "issues." They know our current weapons are a liability, so something will be done about it... We would just like a little input... So in other words, it is broke, and they will fix it. We just don't want to carry a weapon because the powers that be saw something on the history channel about weapon X and kick ace spec ops unit Y carries it... Kinda like what happened 11 years ago.

As for our shootings... Haven't had one in years... We don't have the call volume that other departments have.

As for pleasing everyone... Well, that wouldn't be too tough... Let us carry what we want, AND save tens of thousands of dollars at the same time!
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:11 AM
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The HK USP is one of the finest firearms money can buy. I have it in 40 and have over 5k rds through without a single jam or misfire yet....this thing will even shoot wolf or tula or anything. Its an amazing weapon.
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Old 04-04-2011, 6:44 AM
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The HK USP is one of the finest firearms money can buy. I have it in 40 and have over 5k rds through without a single jam or misfire yet....this thing will even shoot wolf or tula or anything. Its an amazing weapon.
Same here. My HK USP 40 has 8k+ not a single jam. Only Federal JHP and HK Mags.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:35 PM
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My agency allows for sworn personnel to carry a variety of firearms from our department "approved" handgun list. My Sheriff enjoys shooting and his mantra is, "staff oughta shoot what they feel comfortable AND shoot proficient with..." Having said that, he doesn't care if you shoot a Ruger P90 as long as YOU can proficiently qualify and shoot accurately. Members are issued a Glock 17 9mm, but we can carry pretty much what we want in a variety of calibers so long we qualify with it.

PM me if you need further info or a copy of our P&P's regarding our "approved" duty weapon list.

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Old 08-19-2011, 8:34 AM
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UPDATE ON 1ST POST.
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Old 08-19-2011, 10:07 AM
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Sounds like a fairly liberal policy. Any ideas what the approved list of manufacturers will be? FWIW, I'm not a big Smith and Wesson fan, but they have always been very accommodating to our department and provide excellent support for their weapons. Same goes for Glock, though you say your guys aren't big Glock fans.
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Old 08-19-2011, 10:11 AM
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Well done
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:22 AM
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I'd say it's a win. Good job taking care of your troops!!!
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:23 AM
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Sounds like a fairly liberal policy. Any ideas what the approved list of manufacturers will be? FWIW, I'm not a big Smith and Wesson fan, but they have always been very accommodating to our department and provide excellent support for their weapons. Same goes for Glock, though you say your guys aren't big Glock fans.
Yeah, it's much better than we thought it would be... I think I am going to carry a m&p pro 40... I really want to carry a sig, but in 9mm.

I think they are going to stick with the H&K's as the dept. issued weapon until next fiscal year since they are sending them all out in the coming weeks.

The approved will definitely be the top name brands... Sig, Glock, Springfield, S&W, Beretta, etc... Most guys want to carry something in those brands. BTW, H&K obviously... Yes, we have had issues but EVERY brand can and will have issues.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:52 AM
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Sounds great, I've heard good things about the M&P, but never shot one myself. There are rumors that we may change to the M&P as our issue weapon. I've seen our firearms guys testing them, and the XDs, but never heard what came of it. Our department has a very strong relationship with Smith, so it wouldn't surprise me to see us going that route again.
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Old 08-19-2011, 10:09 PM
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Private duty weapons only from an approved list. Department armorer has to inspect it. No unauthorized modifications. Only can add night sights, taclight or laser, and grips or sleeve. Must qualify same as issued weapon. Same policy as personally owned off duty or backups, really. Very simple policy.

I think the specifics are that the barrel must exceed 4" but not longer than 6" for both pistols and revolvers so that eliminates the G19 which is authorized on a case by case basis for females or males with small girly hands.
Good win. But still not as cool as our policy.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:37 PM
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Default Our old policy......

I remember when our policy was personal purchase revolver only S&W, Colt, Ruger, no semi-automatics permitted. .38 or .357 with issue .38 special +P ammo. But then I'm old enough to remember when the issue weapon was a bronze spear.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:21 AM
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I remember when our policy was personal purchase revolver only S&W, Colt, Ruger, no semi-automatics permitted. .38 or .357 with issue .38 special +P ammo. But then I'm old enough to remember when the issue weapon was a bronze spear.
I recall the same weapon choices when I got on with the exception of the spear; bronze or otherwise.

What was sad is I worked for the largest sheriff's dept. in the country (lasd) and we didn't switch to the semi-auto (92f) until late 1989, early 1990. My station, the largest, didn't get them until Jan. of 1990, the same time we had the MDTs installed in the cars and we were finally issued hand held radios dept. wide.

I recall working Paramount out of Lkd. station in 1982 and seeing a couple of Long Beach officers come into our area. They had a MDT in their car and hand held radios. I later bought a Radio Shack scanner so I could listen to calls when inside a house or business on a call.
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Old 08-20-2011, 4:44 AM
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List of approved weapons is limited to brands that are known for reliability: This definition is too broad. As a former firearms instructor and current firearms examiner, I have seen many big name company's guns fail occasionally. Before authorizing a certain firearm for on/off duty use, my department goes through a torture test and see how reliable it is. We used to have some deputies shoot a certain firearm during a training and record the number of shots. On the average, each firearm goes through about 25,000 - 50,000 rounds before it is decided.

No revolvers: This is the most reliable firearm. It should be offered as an option.

As for off duty firearms, we are authorized 9mm, 45, and 38 Special.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe for the future amendment to the policy.

Last edited by Jonathan Doe; 08-20-2011 at 4:46 AM..
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Old 08-20-2011, 8:32 AM
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List of approved weapons is limited to brands that are known for reliability: This definition is too broad. As a former firearms instructor and current firearms examiner, I have seen many big name company's guns fail occasionally. Before authorizing a certain firearm for on/off duty use, my department goes through a torture test and see how reliable it is. We used to have some deputies shoot a certain firearm during a training and record the number of shots. On the average, each firearm goes through about 25,000 - 50,000 rounds before it is decided.

I agree that is broad, but that is where I get to put my touch on the policy... It's also where I get to put brands like Colt and Kimber in there... No cocked and locked... For now!

No revolvers: This is the most reliable firearm. It should be offered as an option.

Very true... I got a bit of insight into this... 15 years ago, deputies were carrying 7 inch 44 mags The bluing was wearing off near the end of the barrel... Public perception was "not good"...

As for off duty firearms, we are authorized 9mm, 45, and 38 Special.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe for the future amendment to the policy.

Exactly how I looked at it... We shifted the argument so far in our favor, we should be able to amend it in a few years to get it where we want to be... Most would carry a 1911 if given the chance.
In bold. Thanks for the input. And Thanks to EVERYONE for the input, especially those who sent me copies of their policy!
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:00 AM
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I feel really lucky that we have been able to carry our own guns since I began in 1977. Congrats on your 'victory'!!!
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:45 AM
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I heard a few guys went and got the FN5.7 and qualified with them for off duty carry. Not sure if it's true, but I'm going to try when I get mine.
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Old 08-20-2011, 7:51 PM
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I heard a few guys went and got the FN5.7 and qualified with them for off duty carry. Not sure if it's true, but I'm going to try when I get mine.
Dang, that is a monster for OD use. I do however, find sick satisfaction in the thought!! LMAO
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:13 AM
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I will try it at the next trimester to see if I can do it just for S&G.
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Old 08-21-2011, 6:18 PM
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:58 PM
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Update... See first post.
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