Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > Calguns LEOs
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 06-15-2010, 3:46 PM
winnre's Avatar
winnre winnre is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IE, Southern CA
Posts: 9,224
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

If the LEO says "Fine, pull over and I will get a warrant" how long will I be sitting there?
  #122  
Old 06-15-2010, 4:22 PM
norcal01 norcal01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 189
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Winnre,
The officer isn't going to say that because he can't just get a warrant based on a hunch. I'm from Humboldt County so the majority (seriously, the majority) of car's I've stopped smelled like marijuana, which is enough to search without a warrant if you can smell it. If it turned out to be a big bust our drug task force would sometimes get called out and they would usually stop the consent search and obtain a search warrant before proceeding. They would use what was found on the consent search or what was found based on the plain view doctrine, which includes all of the senses and is not limited to sight. But your refusal to consent to a search isn't enough for a warrant to be issued. The officer needs to explain his probable cause for the warrant to be issued to a judge, based on specific facts. Basically he has to tell the judge exactly why he thinks something illegal is in the car and what facts led him to that conclusion. That's not likely to happen on the side of the road based on someone being uncooperative. Again, it's one of those things where if you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about.
  #123  
Old 06-15-2010, 8:10 PM
joedogboy joedogboy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Bay / Co-Co County
Posts: 1,444
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by norcal01 View Post
But your refusal to consent to a search isn't enough for a warrant to be issued. The officer needs to explain his probable cause for the warrant to be issued to a judge, based on specific facts.
And you not giving consent not only isn't "enough" to justify a warrant, it isn't applicable at all to the warrant, and PC can't be based on your refusal to be intimidated into a search.
If you forgo your rights each time you assert them, then you actually have no rights.
  #124  
Old 06-15-2010, 8:23 PM
norcal01 norcal01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 189
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joedogboy View Post
And you not giving consent not only isn't "enough" to justify a warrant, it isn't applicable at all to the warrant, and PC can't be based on your refusal to be intimidated into a search.
If you forgo your rights each time you assert them, then you actually have no rights.
You're exactly right, one of the first things I was taught about writing search warrants was to leave out anything regarding whether the suspect did or did not consent, whether they got angry when asked for a consent search, etc...

And I totally agree that sometimes you have to put your foot down on principle, whether you really care or not.
  #125  
Old 06-15-2010, 8:27 PM
CenterX's Avatar
CenterX CenterX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sleep North SFO Bay
Posts: 1,539
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default

16oz Hammer to break the glass!
__________________

- Aut Pax Aut Bellum - Volunteer LDW
  #126  
Old 06-15-2010, 8:50 PM
NotEnoughGuns's Avatar
NotEnoughGuns NotEnoughGuns is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 918
iTrader: 31 / 100%
Default

I've gotten out of quite a few tickets by being polite and honest. LEOs seem to appreciate people whom are truthful. I guess they don't get that too often.
__________________
Join the NRA today!
  #127  
Old 06-15-2010, 10:35 PM
Rockit's Avatar
Rockit Rockit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,326
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotEnoughGuns View Post
I've gotten out of quite a few tickets by being polite and honest. LEOs seem to appreciate people whom are truthful. I guess they don't get that too often.
^^^^^this.
Don't play games, we'll just do our job. We get lied to ALL the time. It's a refreshing change to deal with someone that understands this.

I normally don't care if you have enough firearms for a small army, so I normally don't ask. If I do ask, there is probably a reason. Most cops, myself included rarely ask a pertinent question without having a good inclination about the answer. Unless you're being shady, it behooves you to be honest.
  #128  
Old 06-15-2010, 10:40 PM
Pyrodyne's Avatar
Pyrodyne Pyrodyne is offline
C3 Contributor
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 264
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I can only remember one time I was asked if I had weapons in my autocross car. I was never given a reason for the stop, though I had a massive exhaust leak caused by a stray shipping pallet on the freeway (car was loud enough without the damned leak). The LEO questioned everything he could see through the window - post-its on the dash (race times), radio on the passenger seat (ham radio not police scanner), etc etc etc.

He was asking about weapons after he spotted the toolbag on the passenger floorboard. My response was a firm no.

He went after the loudness last and I related that I hit a pallet on the freeway that just about destroyed my engine, it ripped exhaust studs and punctured three pushrod tubes. He apologized for wasting my time and let me go.

The best answers i've seen are to be honest if not open. Refusing to answer a question is exercising your 5th. "I respectfully decline to answer that question, sir".

Good reason not to consent to searches or admit having firearms to play inspector? One of those god forsaken made-in-china-california-approved locks. It had at one point sprung something and wouldn't lock one of my handgun boxes, the pin was slipping. I wouldn't want to have an aggressive LEO write me up and seize my firearms because of a stupid failure of a stupid lock. It failed at the range, too, and I had no spares.

Thanks to the level-headed, thinking crowd for a better answer. I wouldn't feel right lying to a LEO.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
5 that bother to show up are worth a thousand who have "really strong feelings" but already committed to going fishing that day....
  #129  
Old 06-16-2010, 4:40 AM
slobson's Avatar
slobson slobson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 558
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Because pickles, eggs, stuffed animals, etc can't hurt me. The quality of the posts in this thread has gone downhill severly.
call it wordplay or semantics, but a gun cannot hurt you on its own potentially any more than the above inanimate objects; in a traffic stop, just as in any other personal encounter, it is individuals who can be dangerous and cause a threat. yes, I understand weapons are powerful tools that can make a person MORE dangerous: but asking a criminal if they have something illegal seems to follow the same broken reasoning of gun control laws in general, the fallacy that criminals will follow laws concerning weapons they are planning to use to break yet other laws. from the many insightful posts from LEO on this thread, it seems that the honest stand up individuals are not out to harass gun owners any more than they are out to troll for moving violations, they are busy trying to make life tough for criminals. in a perfect world these LEO could easily recognize law abiding citizens on sight (and on many occasions they can) but sadly there is seldom any way for a citizen to decipher the intentions of the LEO they are interacting with. it would be naive for a civilian to be upset with an officer taking every precaution while protecting his or herself, just as it is self righteous for any officer to bristle at the caution with which we as civilians must use in our interactions with them.
  #130  
Old 06-16-2010, 6:31 AM
SID45's Avatar
SID45 SID45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern Cali
Posts: 309
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

So, if you say " there is nothing illegal in the vehicle" does that trigger more questions even though everything is legal anyway?
  #131  
Old 06-16-2010, 9:01 PM
joedogboy joedogboy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Bay / Co-Co County
Posts: 1,444
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

The only time I can see this question being justified is if they are going to search you, or the vehicle ANYWAY.

For example, when entering a military installation, if your vehicle hits the lucky number for random search, you are asked if you have any firearms or other dangerous objects in the vehicle.
It is understood that this declaration is to prevent any misunderstandings when the searchers find the weapons.
  #132  
Old 06-16-2010, 9:33 PM
Ron-Solo's Avatar
Ron-Solo Ron-Solo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Classified
Posts: 8,548
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slobson View Post
call it wordplay or semantics, but a gun cannot hurt you on its own potentially any more than the above inanimate objects; in a traffic stop, just as in any other personal encounter, it is individuals who can be dangerous and cause a threat. yes, I understand weapons are powerful tools that can make a person MORE dangerous: but asking a criminal if they have something illegal seems to follow the same broken reasoning of gun control laws in general, the fallacy that criminals will follow laws concerning weapons they are planning to use to break yet other laws. from the many insightful posts from LEO on this thread, it seems that the honest stand up individuals are not out to harass gun owners any more than they are out to troll for moving violations, they are busy trying to make life tough for criminals. in a perfect world these LEO could easily recognize law abiding citizens on sight (and on many occasions they can) but sadly there is seldom any way for a citizen to decipher the intentions of the LEO they are interacting with. it would be naive for a civilian to be upset with an officer taking every precaution while protecting his or herself, just as it is self righteous for any officer to bristle at the caution with which we as civilians must use in our interactions with them.

How many traffic stops have you made? I've made thousands.

People who play word games only draw attention to themselves. It makes any good cop ask himself what this person is hiding. People who play word games often find themselves on the wrong side of the booking cage because their mouth drew attention to themselves.

You can attack me with a pickle and I'm not likely to get hurt, unless the brine burns my eyes. I'm going to respond to that 'weapon' differently than I would a knife or gun, which will be met with a much higher level of force.
__________________
LASD Retired
1978-2011

NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
NRA Rifle Instructor
NRA Shotgun Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
DOJ Certified Instructor

Last edited by Ron-Solo; 06-16-2010 at 9:35 PM..
  #133  
Old 06-16-2010, 9:35 PM
Ron-Solo's Avatar
Ron-Solo Ron-Solo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Classified
Posts: 8,548
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SID45 View Post
So, if you say " there is nothing illegal in the vehicle" does that trigger more questions even though everything is legal anyway?
When you sidestep a question, you will send up 'red flags' that will arouse curiosity, and may eventually lead to justification for a search or detention.
__________________
LASD Retired
1978-2011

NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
NRA Rifle Instructor
NRA Shotgun Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
DOJ Certified Instructor
  #134  
Old 06-16-2010, 9:44 PM
Ron-Solo's Avatar
Ron-Solo Ron-Solo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Classified
Posts: 8,548
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joedogboy View Post
The only time I can see this question being justified is if they are going to search you, or the vehicle ANYWAY.

For example, when entering a military installation, if your vehicle hits the lucky number for random search, you are asked if you have any firearms or other dangerous objects in the vehicle.
It is understood that this declaration is to prevent any misunderstandings when the searchers find the weapons.
FYI, we can ask all kinds of questions during a legal contact, including this one.

I have the right to maintain a safe environment for me, and asking about weapons is one way to keep things safer.

How you answer is your choice, but this is a Law Enforcement forum so please expect to get honest answers from people doing the job.
__________________
LASD Retired
1978-2011

NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
NRA Rifle Instructor
NRA Shotgun Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
DOJ Certified Instructor
  #135  
Old 06-16-2010, 10:12 PM
PM720 PM720 is offline
Calguns.net Shooting Team
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Vegas Baby!
Posts: 1,886
iTrader: 142 / 100%
Default

OK, since this is all kinda hypothetical anyway. Ron, I answer yes, I have several locked in my trunk. They are out of reach and no danger to you in the course of your stop. What are you going to do next? And I am not trying to put you on the spot but looking to see what would happen.

Scott
  #136  
Old 06-16-2010, 10:41 PM
joedogboy joedogboy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Bay / Co-Co County
Posts: 1,444
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
FYI, we can ask all kinds of questions during a legal contact, including this one.

I have the right to maintain a safe environment for me, and asking about weapons is one way to keep things safer.

How you answer is your choice, but this is a Law Enforcement forum so please expect to get honest answers from people doing the job.
And how exactly would you respond if a motorist gave you this type of an honest/truthful answer: "It's really none of your business, is it? It's just easier and safer for you to harass me than to pursue dangerous criminals. Now, since you have gone beyond the proper boundaries of your role, wouldn't it be fair and just to forget about writing me a ticket for going beyond the proper boundaries of the speed limit. Since we both stepped outside the law, but no one was hurt - in this instance- why don't we call it even"?

Would you be happy with that answer?

Is there anything illegal, or even wrong with that answer?

Would that answer be likely to cause you to take some type of punitive action against that citizen?

Would it be better for the motorist to try to give you a more nuanced answer, rather than essentially telling you to pound sand?

Last edited by joedogboy; 06-17-2010 at 8:24 AM..
  #137  
Old 06-17-2010, 1:10 AM
slobson's Avatar
slobson slobson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 558
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
How many traffic stops have you made? I've made thousands.

People who play word games only draw attention to themselves. It makes any good cop ask himself what this person is hiding. People who play word games often find themselves on the wrong side of the booking cage because their mouth drew attention to themselves.

You can attack me with a pickle and I'm not likely to get hurt, unless the brine burns my eyes. I'm going to respond to that 'weapon' differently than I would a knife or gun, which will be met with a much higher level of force.
I have made a grand total of zero, just lending the perspective of an individual who has had a variety of different interactions with LEO in my short life, good bad and ugly. You neatly ignored my point of the individuals in the situation being the most important variables NOT the inanimate objects either may or may not possess, as well as the problem of "good cops" not wearing merit badges any more than honest citizens carrying signs proclaiming their harmless intentions. And your implication that word games end up in a person getting booked only reinforces innocent people such as myself to not speak to people like you under any circumstances.
  #138  
Old 06-17-2010, 8:14 AM
joedogboy joedogboy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Bay / Co-Co County
Posts: 1,444
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
How many traffic stops have you made? I've made thousands.
A few dozen, perhaps a hundred - certainly far less than a thousand. As a military cop we didn't have the revenue enhancement focus that is prevalent in some civilian departments, so we could focus on serving, protecting, and enforcing the law, rather than writing tickets.
My civilian LE experience was primarily in parking enforcement for a college department, which wasn't nearly as fulfilling for me - although some people really got off on the power rush they got from writing tickets, I chose to focus on the other aspects of the job (foot patrols of the campus, building security checks, assisting in investigations, etc.), and ticketed clear violators (double parked, blocking lanes in parking lot, no permit, parked in handicap zone with no handicap tag, etc.), rather than looking for an excuse to ticket cars for extremely technical violations (fx: parking permit half an inch out of place, stand next to meters and ticket immediately when they expire - even if the motorist is waiting to cross the street to get to their car).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
When you sidestep a question, you will send up 'red flags' that will arouse curiosity, and may eventually lead to justification for a search or detention.
When a cop asks questions that are inappropriate to the situation, or tries to intimidate and coerce a citizen into giving up their rights, it should raise a red flag - not only with the citizen, but with other cops who witness this unprofessional and demeaning behavior.

If the citizen responds to your question by asking you "Why are you asking me that?" and you don't have an answer to give them that includes an articulable suspicion specific to that situation, then you have clearly gone too far in your fishing trip, and need to reel yourself in.

If you can honestly respond with something like "A car of the same model and color as yours was involved in a drive by shooting two miles from here a few minutes ago, and we want to make sure that it wasn't you." Then any motorist who was not involved in a drive by shooting can feel secure in granting you permission to search, since you have made it clear that you are not looking to cause trouble for them, but to clear them and allow them to go on their way. You have given the citizen a reasonable justification for them to waive their rights and allow you to search. The non sequitur, out of the blue question about weapons in the car doesn't seem justified, and appears to be simple fishing, or even harassment.

If your response is "I saw your NRA hat in the back seat, and as a gun owner, I thought we could chat about our shared hobby while we wait for the computer to process your license and registration information.", I'd be okay with that - as long as you made it clear that this is a friendly conversation between two gun owners, and that you aren't "out to get me".

When you start throwing your authority around and making subtle threats (i.e. placing your hand on the butt of your sidearm, touching your shield, tapping your ticket book, placing yourself into their "personal space", etc.) it is normal for people to feel threatened and intimidated, and their behavior is likely to become less natural and friendly as the situation becomes less comfortable for them.

The more negative experiences citizens have with LE, the less comfortable and supportive they are of LE. It is in the best interests of the LE community if all cops deal with the public in the most positive and professional manner possible.

If you are dealing with citizens and are legitimately concerned that they are an armed threat, you probably already have an articulable suspicion that they are armed and a threat, and are already planning to up the ante and search and or arrest them.

When you ask the motorist if they have any weapons in the car, you are essentially starting a second phase of detention, which would have to based on your articulable suspicion that they are armed and dangerous.

These are all things that are covered in training at many LE organizations, in order to prepare their employees to be good cops.

Last edited by joedogboy; 06-17-2010 at 8:20 AM..
  #139  
Old 06-17-2010, 8:39 AM
N6ATF N6ATF is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East San Diego County, CA
Posts: 8,389
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Stay calm. Do not speak a single syllable as if your life depended on it. Tear off strip. Hand to cop.

http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_&...way_cards.html
  #140  
Old 06-17-2010, 9:31 AM
Ron-Solo's Avatar
Ron-Solo Ron-Solo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Classified
Posts: 8,548
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

You people are amazing. You have taken this thing to extremes and have lost the point of the thread. It has outlived its usefullness in my opinion.

The 'what ifs' and such have gone to the bizarre.
__________________
LASD Retired
1978-2011

NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
NRA Rifle Instructor
NRA Shotgun Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
DOJ Certified Instructor
  #141  
Old 06-17-2010, 9:33 AM
PhantomII PhantomII is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Arizona Woohoo!
Posts: 337
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quite frankly, there's nothing in this vehicle that is not a weapon.

I got a nasty paper cut from my registration. A seatbelt can cause some serious lumps if you smack someone one the head with the buckle. Keys are ersatz brass knuckles. What can I make with a paperclip and a rubberband? Not to mention the ultimate terrorist weapon... I have a box cutter in my tool box!

Yes officer, I have all sorts of weapons in the vehicle.
  #142  
Old 06-17-2010, 9:42 AM
CEDaytonaRydr's Avatar
CEDaytonaRydr CEDaytonaRydr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 4,075
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Aherne View Post
Here's a clue: stop speeding when you go to the range and you won't have to worry about this problem.

Here's another clue:

If a cop wants to pull you over, he will find a reason to do so!

I've been pulled over for ridiculous (borderline suspect) reasons in the past. The one that sticks on in my mind most was "Your tire tread looked low so I pulled you over to measure it."

...which was quickly followed up with: "By the way, have you had anything to drink this evening?"
  #143  
Old 06-17-2010, 10:41 AM
5shot's Avatar
5shot 5shot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chino, Ca.
Posts: 1,253
iTrader: 27 / 100%
Default

I guess people don't realize how many times they get a break from officers. I can remember giving around 3 warnings for every ticket I wrote. I can remember pouring out beer on the side of the road, and sending juve's off with a warning. Confiscating illegal weapons, fireworks, ext, and turning them in for destruction, without a arrest report or request for complaint.
So many times, people get a break because they co-operate, are polite, and appear to be sincere when they say it won't happen again.
And then there are the people who demand to play it by the book. "I got rights, just do your job and let me go". So we play it by the book, write you a ticket and send you on your way.
What did you gain by demanding your rights? A traffic ticket that will probably cost you a couple hundred dollars. A point on your DMV record for the next 3 years. And a possible increase in your insurance premium.
Another question I would have is, what are some of you guys doing that you get pulled over so often? Obey the laws in the first place and a cop will never have to ask if you have any weapons in your car.
__________________
John Bishop
Member: NRA Life, CRPA, WEGC
  #144  
Old 06-17-2010, 5:26 PM
joedogboy joedogboy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Bay / Co-Co County
Posts: 1,444
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5shot View Post
Another question I would have is, what are some of you guys doing that you get pulled over so often? Obey the laws in the first place and a cop will never have to ask if you have any weapons in your car.
Last two?

Burned out tail light. Fix it ticket. No hassles.

When replaced (took it in for a scheduled tune-up and asked them to check the tail-lights), service technician at the shop evidently bumped the brake light, so it became loose and stopped working, so I got pulled over a few weeks later.

After writing the fix it ticket, the motor officer, started his fishing expedition - asked about searching the car. When I asked him "Why would you even ask to search my car?"
He shrugged and said "I might find something, and be able to give you a larger fine or arrest you." At least he was honest about it. We kept the conversation professional and reasonably friendly. Maybe he's tired of writing tickets all day long and his buddies on the force give him grief about not doing "real" cop work and arresting people, so he's trying to drum up business (and I'm sure that every department has a few of those guys - the ones who constantly belittle the contributions of their coworkers - most workplaces do). Who knows?

Most memorable (the one where I was asked about guns in my car) was about ten years ago. Highway enters town, speed limit sign obscured by foliage blowing in the wind. Continued at just over 50 (I was driving a few miles under the 55mph highway limit due to the windy conditions) into a 45 zone. Deputy claims he clocked me at 53 in a 45.
Fishing expedition included threats to arrest me and impound my car if I didn't give him consent to search, as well as racial epithets. Had me standing in the rain for about 20 minutes while we discussed this.
I was not going to let him into my trunk, because anyone who starts a conversation with racial epithets is clearly not someone who is interested in treating me fairly.
Finally, his back-up/supervisor arrived, and allowed me to go home - giving him a bit of a butt-chewing.
I went to court, he didn't (evidently he was on his way out of the department by that point), and the ticket went away.

It only takes one stop like that to make you think twice about blindly trusting the professionalism of the person behind the shield.

Last edited by joedogboy; 06-17-2010 at 6:09 PM..
  #145  
Old 06-18-2010, 10:23 PM
makemyday makemyday is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 21
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

is it illegal to carry a firearm in the car locked? I travel back and fourth from LA to SF and
feel more safe with a firearm is in a hotel with me. anyone knows?
  #146  
Old 06-21-2010, 10:49 AM
Ken Hardesty Ken Hardesty is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Turo,

Officers are punished for mistakes on a daily basis. Most administrations will go to the extreme when administering discipline, in an effort to appear 'transparent.'

Your statement insinuates that officers are free to do as they wish, claim ignorance or a mistake, and be forgiven. Officers are tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, often when their actions are completely justified.

I could have sworn I saw a post that requested no 'cop bashing'. I have no problem with opinions, as long as they are educated. The next time you get the feeling that officers are immediately forgiven for 'mistakes,' take a look at any local newspaper.
  #147  
Old 06-21-2010, 3:22 PM
SVT-40's Avatar
SVT-40 SVT-40 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 9,374
iTrader: 31 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joedogboy View Post
And how exactly would you respond if a motorist gave you this type of an honest/truthful answer: "It's really none of your business, is it? It's just easier and safer for you to harass me than to pursue dangerous criminals. Now, since you have gone beyond the proper boundaries of your role, wouldn't it be fair and just to forget about writing me a ticket for going beyond the proper boundaries of the speed limit. Since we both stepped outside the law, but no one was hurt - in this instance- why don't we call it even"?

Would you be happy with that answer?

Is there anything illegal, or even wrong with that answer?

Would that answer be likely to cause you to take some type of punitive action against that citizen?

Would it be better for the motorist to try to give you a more nuanced answer, rather than essentially telling you to pound sand?
But it is the Officers "business" to determine if laws have been broken. So it would be perfectly within the course and scope of his duties to ask questions about weapons, just as it's within the course and scope of his duties to ask about consumption and or possessision of drugs or alcohol.

About "It's just easier and safer for you to harass me than to pursue dangerous criminals."

Just how does a officer identify dangerous criminals without asking probing questions? Since "dangerous criminals" don't wear signs to identify themselves, Officers must asks questions.

In your scenario the only person acting unreasonably was you. Remember respect goes both ways.

Evasive answers will always bring a higher level of scrutiny no matter what the profession or relationship.

Next time you are late coming home and your significant other asks you where you have been. Try answering with " "It's really none of your business, is it?". As you suggested above. Or how about "I've done nothing wrong". Just how far will do you think those answers will get you get you??? Do you think your significant other will just drop it and go on?? I bet not. Honest is always a better option than being evasive.

Unless you really have something to hide.
__________________
Poke'm with a stick!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.

Last edited by SVT-40; 06-22-2010 at 10:18 AM..
  #148  
Old 06-22-2010, 2:35 PM
slobson's Avatar
slobson slobson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 558
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Next time you are late coming home and your significant other asks you where you have been. Try answering with " "It's really none of your business, is it?". As you suggested above. Or how about "I've done nothing wrong". Just how far will do you think those answers will get you get you??? Do you think your significant other will just drop it and go on?? I bet not. Honest is always a better option than being evasive.
did you really just compare the guy's relationship with his GF/wife to a cop he doesn't know from adam???

come on now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Unless you really have something to hide.
and considering anything you ever say to a LEO can not ever be used for anything other than your incarceration, anyone that wants to stay out of prison has a whole lot to hide regardless of the legality of their actions, because getting into that sort of conversation with an officer CAN ONLY HURT YOU
  #149  
Old 06-22-2010, 4:23 PM
norcal01 norcal01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 189
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slobson View Post
did you really just compare the guy's relationship with his GF/wife to a cop he doesn't know from adam???

come on now.


and considering anything you ever say to a LEO can not ever be used for anything other than your incarceration, anyone that wants to stay out of prison has a whole lot to hide regardless of the legality of their actions, because getting into that sort of conversation with an officer CAN ONLY HURT YOU
The comparison was of the reaction the guy is likely to get, not to the relationship and in my opinion, probably the best comparison I've seen so far.

As far as everything you say being used to incarcerate you, I've had countless people answer questions in situations where their answers PREVENTED their incarceration and had they simply declined to speak they would likely have gotten a ride in a patrol car. You don't have to prove someone is guilty to arrest them and the threshold for probable cause can sometimes be lower than you think...
  #150  
Old 06-22-2010, 10:44 PM
SVT-40's Avatar
SVT-40 SVT-40 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 9,374
iTrader: 31 / 100%
Default

Slobson, norcal01 got it right. It's about how one reacts to statements. There are many NON confrontational ways to have conversations with LEO's.

Many here just don't get it. If you act like someone with "something to hide" you will be treated as such and will be looked at with a much higher degree of scrutiny.

As norcal1 said MANY MANY time a guy who levels with you will be given a break over someone who hides and tries to obfuscate things.

In the end it's up to you. But you are just plain wrong about talking with LEO's in most conversations related to simple traffic stops.
__________________
Poke'm with a stick!


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
What you believe and what is true in real life in the real world aren't necessarily the same thing. And what you believe doesn't change what is true in real life in the real world.
  #151  
Old 06-22-2010, 11:39 PM
mtsul's Avatar
mtsul mtsul is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Crappy Ca, in Riverside (woodcrest)
Posts: 2,066
iTrader: 45 / 100%
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Here is the problem with Lying to LEO's. Most LEO's are very good at detecting when people are lying to them. Even small lies. In fact there are training seminars which teach LEO's to detect lying or untruthful behavior. Check out the links below. To a company (BATI) which teach on just this subject.

http://www.liedetection.com/

http://www.liedetection.com/Basic.htm

So if a LEO detects "lying" or "untruthful" statements. He will believe that you do in fact have something to hide. And in fact MAY be trying to hide criminal behavior.

Although this type of lie in and of it's self not a crime. It is certainly probable cause to believe you may be trying to hide criminal behavior.

For the LEO's here I would strongly suggest trying to attend the basic interview and interrogation class BATI provides. It's POST certified and of huge benefit to you in your every day LEO career.

The quality of your investigations and interview skills will be greatly enhanced.

I attended many of the seminars provided by BATI. They were the best courses I attended during my career bar none.

(Sorry if its already answered) but if you stay quite and dont say anything is that probable cause???

Also +100000000000 to LEO/Military keep fighting guys/gals good will always win if you keep up the fight be safe your family/friends strangers and I thank you
__________________
WTB M38 mosin
WTB berreta 90-TWO
WTB CZ PO-7, Parrot, Shadow/2, Czechmate
WTB CZ 512 22wmr
  #152  
Old 06-22-2010, 11:43 PM
mtsul's Avatar
mtsul mtsul is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Crappy Ca, in Riverside (woodcrest)
Posts: 2,066
iTrader: 45 / 100%
Default

Reasonable Suspicion maybe, but not Probable Cause.
Sure, I can go with that. Put in a much better way!!


never mind
__________________
WTB M38 mosin
WTB berreta 90-TWO
WTB CZ PO-7, Parrot, Shadow/2, Czechmate
WTB CZ 512 22wmr
  #153  
Old 06-26-2010, 10:25 PM
flyer898's Avatar
flyer898 flyer898 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 1,385
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Default

When I get pulled over the officer gets my CCW with my CDL. That focuses the conversation somewhat -- when asked if carrying, I answer in the affirmative. I really like being able to tell the truth! I understand the right to remain silent, I just like being able to tell the truth more.

On the other hand there is this story. A lawyer and his wife were driving in a strange western state. They were on cruise-control and well over the speed limit. They saw a state trooper notice them from the opposing traffic lanes and they pulled over before the trooper had turned around.

The lawyer and his wife got out of the car and were walking on the shoulder when the trooper pulled up. He asked them who was driving. The lawyer said, "I respectfully decline to assist with your investigation." This did not endear them to the trooper.
Finally the lawyer offered that if he would teach the officer a detective technique that would allow him to tell who was driving, would he let them go? He agreed.

The lawyer told him to look at the driver seat adjustment and that would tell him whether the lawyer or his much shorter wife had been driving.

I know the lawyer -- he used to be the Assistant DA in my office.
  #154  
Old 06-26-2010, 11:05 PM
slobson's Avatar
slobson slobson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 558
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by norcal01 View Post
The comparison was of the reaction the guy is likely to get, not to the relationship and in my opinion, probably the best comparison I've seen so far.

As far as everything you say being used to incarcerate you, I've had countless people answer questions in situations where their answers PREVENTED their incarceration and had they simply declined to speak they would likely have gotten a ride in a patrol car. You don't have to prove someone is guilty to arrest them and the threshold for probable cause can sometimes be lower than you think...
countless huh? how about some examples.
and even assuming you are understanding and would never try to use an individual's words against them in an unjust way, you are only one officer, and it only takes another individual like you on the opposite side of the spectrum to change the life of someone like me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Slobson, norcal01 got it right. It's about how one reacts to statements. There are many NON confrontational ways to have conversations with LEO's.

Many here just don't get it. If you act like someone with "something to hide" you will be treated as such and will be looked at with a much higher degree of scrutiny.

As norcal1 said MANY MANY time a guy who levels with you will be given a break over someone who hides and tries to obfuscate things.

In the end it's up to you. But you are just plain wrong about talking with LEO's in most conversations related to simple traffic stops.
and again, as has been said ad nauseum, it only takes ONE TIME getting too chatty with a police officer to end up putting yourself in prison, innocent or not. that would make me quite the opposite of "just plain wrong."
I am not saying that every time I get pulled over I simply assert my rights and clam up and damn the consequences, when I do get pulled over, I turn on the dome light in the vehicle, put my hands in a clearly visible spot and keep them there, and carry on respectfully as I do when I meet any other stranger; but if an officer is being rude in my opinion, then he is going to get a similar response from me. if others want to kowtow and act like obedient little sheep to rude officers because they don't want a ticket, fine. everyone has to decide what their self respect is worth.
__________________
"The constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
-Patrick Henry

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...9#post11240879

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=754181

Last edited by retired; 06-27-2010 at 9:54 AM..
  #155  
Old 06-27-2010, 11:36 AM
norcal01 norcal01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 189
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slobson View Post
countless huh? how about some examples.
and even assuming you are understanding and would never try to use an individual's words against them in an unjust way, you are only one officer, and it only takes another individual like you on the opposite side of the spectrum to change the life of someone like me.



...if an officer is being rude in my opinion, then he is going to get a similar response from me. if others want to kowtow and act like obedient little sheep to rude officers because they don't want a ticket, fine. everyone has to decide what their self respect is worth.
How about responding to a stabbing, one guy laying on the ground, another, highly agitated subject standing in the far corner of the parking lot holding a knife with blood on it who then ran away and had to be chased down when I tried to contact him. After corroborating some of his statements, he was an acquaintance of the victim who had come to his aid and had disarmed the attacker. He fled because he was on probation and not allowed to have any weapons and was afraid he would be arrested for holding the knife. If he had refused to talk we wouldn't have gotten his side of the story, which ended up being rather easy to verify, and without him making statements about what happened he most likely would have been arrested as the suspect and the mistake wouldn't have been realized until the victim was treated and coherent enough to tell us what happened. And if they both refused to talk he might have actually been charged.

Another example: Pulled over a subject I had dealt with previously and who I knew to be a convicted felon. Upon approaching the vehicle I can see a rifle case lying across the back seat. Long story short he informed us that he had allowed a friend to stay at his house and the friend had skipped town, leaving a note asking him to store his gun. Since the driver was on probation and the terms required him to submit to searches, he didn't want a firearm in his house. So he contacted the local sheriff's office which has jurisdiction where he lives and informed them that he would be bringing the gun to their office to turn in. One quick phone call verified this and I sent him on his way. Had he refused to talk to me I would have arrested him for being a felon in possession of a firearm.

The point is, neither of these guys were in the wrong but both could easily have been arrested based on what could be determined without their statements. The cases against them would probably have been dropped but they saved themselves a trip to jail and the subsequent inconveniences by simply being honest.

All that being said, I agree with you that there is no reason to cooperate with an officer who is being rude. I always approached everyone in the most respectful way unless the circumstances were such that I needed to immediately use, or demonstrate a willingness to use, force. Officers who are out fishing for dirt on your average joe are, in my opinion, incompetent officers or ones who have led such a sheltered life that they are intimidated easily. I've worked with some who were admittedly scared of parolees, gang members and the like and would go out of their way to avoid them and only deal with them if they absolutely had to. As far as I'm concerned these officers should never have been released from their probationary period but the costs of doing backgrounds, hiring, etc. make it unlikely that an administrator will terminate their employment just because they aren't aggressive enough. As for me, if I get pulled over and the officer wants to get in my face and step outside the normal parameters of a traffic stop, I'm not going to participate. This is easily accomplished by not answering questions and telling them that you don't want to answer any questions. But if they are being respectful and doing their job in a professional manner then I'll answer their questions truthfully all day long. By being the bigger person you can keep your self respect without being bullied by someone who doesn't want to do the job the way it's supposed to be done.
  #156  
Old 06-27-2010, 12:04 PM
slobson's Avatar
slobson slobson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 558
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

well norcal it seems we are in agreement. thank you for your service in doing a tough tough job, I hope the next time I get pulled over its by someone like you, then I'll know for sure everyone will be going on their way safe and happy.
__________________
"The constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
-Patrick Henry

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...9#post11240879

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=754181

Last edited by retired; 06-28-2010 at 12:25 PM..
  #157  
Old 06-27-2010, 1:39 PM
GtvAlfaMan GtvAlfaMan is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default California Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry clarification

Hello, I live near Los Angeles now and have recently purchased a 9mm handgun. I plan on carrying LUCC (Locked unloaded concealed carry), meaning I will place my unloaded handgun in a soft side zipper case with a TSA padlock to secure it. My questions are as follows:
1. Can the loaded magazine be stored inside the locking case with the unloaded gun? Or must the loaded magazine be carried separately (not inside the case with the gun).
2. Can I carry the loaded magazine in my pocket of my jacket or pants?
3. I plan on carrying LUCC everywhere I go, within the law. Can I carry LUCC while driving my car, at the supermarket, at a restaurant?
4. Is LUCC legal near a school zone?

I don't want to Open Carry at this time, just to avoid problems with our local overzealous police.
If anyone can answer the questions listed above, I will be grateful.
Thanks
  #158  
Old 06-27-2010, 2:13 PM
N6ATF N6ATF is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East San Diego County, CA
Posts: 8,389
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Don't use a TSA padlock unless you want it illegally opened and your case searched with the TSA master key rather than bolt cutters.
  #159  
Old 06-27-2010, 3:59 PM
norcal01 norcal01 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 189
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slobson View Post
well norcal it seems we are in agreement. thank you for your service in doing a tough tough job, I hope the next time I get pulled over its by someone like you, then I'll know for sure everyone will be going on their way safe and happy.
I'm sure we probably agree on most things, and you'd probably agree with most of the officers out there. The reason they get so fired up is because every instance of poor police work or excessive force is always highly publicized. Officers who do their job correctly get lumped in with the small number of officers who aren't following the rules. It's kind of like hunters getting a bad rap because of poachers. The majority of both these groups are down-to-earth, normal people just trying to do the right thing. I just wish people would consider that before running their mouth to the next cop that pulls them over. Trust me, whenever I pull someone over I can tell what impression they have of LEO's by the way they sit in the car and how they act when I approach them but it doesn't change the way I start the conversation. Most of the time, people aren't happy they got pulled over but they leave with the understanding that it wasn't personal.
  #160  
Old 06-27-2010, 11:37 PM
foolthomas foolthomas is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 90
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

I doubt this thread will get read and I honestly did not read all the other threads but here it goes anyway:

Guns in you car = guns on your person/possession. A peace officer has a legal right to inspect any guns in your possession.

It is absolutely illegal to lie to a police officer. Now if all you have at the end is that someone didn't tell you about the legal guns in their car and you find them and run them and they are all legit, it might be unlikely a supervisor will approve an obstruction arrest. But do you want to chance it?

And as stated before..don't play word games. Any decent cop will detect what you are doing and will go from being understanding to petty.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:31 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.