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  #41  
Old 06-13-2012, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Okay, let me be more specific:

LEO's are in a different class and it should be obvious that there are exemptions that are not being discussed here.

Maybe you should spend more time reading this forum to understand that the discussion has centered around the legal posession of BX-25 magazines, in California by the general shooting public, NOT LEO's.

It is illegal for non-LEO's (or specially licensed FFL's) to possess BX-25 magazines in California PERIOD. They were introduced after the 1-1-2000 legislation which means that possession involved an illegal transfer of ownership in some manner form, illegal importation from out of state or illegal manufacture by assembling parts from a kit.

Is that clear now?

Dan
Except that you are wrong. If you owned high capacity magazines prior to the ban, you can repair/replace those magazines. You can take old 10+ round magazines and repair/replace them with new mags. Pmags are a perfect example of this, you can replace your old damaged or worn out usgi ar15 magazines with brand new pmags and add long as you don't end up with more magazines then you started with then you are not manufacturing.

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  #42  
Old 06-13-2012, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconator View Post
Except that you are wrong. If you owned high capacity magazines prior to the ban, you can repair/replace those magazines. You can take old 10+ round magazines and repair/replace them with new mags. Pmags are a perfect example of this, you can replace your old damaged or worn out usgi ar15 magazines with brand new pmags and add long as you don't end up with more magazines then you started with then you are not manufacturing.
Good lord. How can you possibly repair a BX-25 when they were not even made before the ban?

You can repair legally owned hi-cap mags that were possessed BEFORE THE BAN. BX-25's were not in existance before the ban.

Read this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...-cap+magazines

Second sentence in point #4.

Dan
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  #43  
Old 06-13-2012, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Okay, let me be more specific:

LEO's are in a different class and it should be obvious that there are exemptions that are not being discussed here.

Maybe you should spend more time reading this forum to understand that the discussion has centered around the legal posession of BX-25 magazines, in California by the general shooting public, NOT LEO's.

It is illegal for non-LEO's (or specially licensed FFL's) to possess BX-25 magazines in California PERIOD. They were introduced after the 1-1-2000 legislation which means that possession involved an illegal transfer of ownership in some manner form, illegal importation from out of state or illegal manufacture by assembling parts from a kit.

Is that clear now?

Dan
Okay, let me be more specific.

YOU ARE WRONG!

Is THAT clear enough for you?


You have a post count of four, and both of them in this forum are WRONG.

Nonsense like his gives me a Popsicle headache!




Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Good lord. How can you possibly repair a BX-25 when they were not even made before the ban?

You can repair legally owned hi-cap mags that were possessed BEFORE THE BAN. BX-25's were not in existance before the ban.

Read this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...-cap+magazines

Second sentence in point #4.

Dan
Are you really that dense? You don't get it. Maybe you should rethink posting in the LE forum when you can't seem to get your facts straight.
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Last edited by Ron-Solo; 06-13-2012 at 2:57 PM..
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  #44  
Old 06-13-2012, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Good lord. How can you possibly repair a BX-25 when they were not even made before the ban?

You can repair legally owned hi-cap mags that were possessed BEFORE THE BAN. BX-25's were not in existance before the ban.

Read this:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...-cap+magazines

Second sentence in point #4.

Dan
Did they make large capacity magazines for 10/22s before the ban? If they did you can replace the ones that legally obtained with new ones when your old ones have worn out. This isn't even a "I found them"stretch, this is normal course of magazine life that you are misinformed about. You don't have to only repair/replace the magazine with the exact same magazine. If you can show me the PC that says this then I will be wrong.

Maybe try reading the thread you posted

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8&postcount=11

Post 11
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afterburnt
"5. Yes, you can buy part kits to repair your existing magazines - but you cannot assemble them into complete "large-capacity magazines" inside CA - that would be manufacturing and that can be charged as a felony."

I think this point needs further clarification. How far does "repair" go? If you eventually replace all of the parts and in effect have a new magazine is this ok?
Read the long thread, linked in the first post in this one.

Short answer: yes

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Last edited by Baconator; 06-13-2012 at 1:29 PM..
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  #45  
Old 06-13-2012, 9:59 AM
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This post reminded me to pick up more hi cap mags on the way home last night. Thx
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  #46  
Old 06-13-2012, 11:25 AM
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Yep, stock up while you can.
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  #47  
Old 06-13-2012, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by doc8404 View Post
...(I am active duty military and recently transfered into Cali)...
I thought he would have been exempt... being AD.Mil?
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  #48  
Old 06-13-2012, 11:47 AM
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I spent over $300 the morning I had to trade my active LE identification for my retired identification. I even bought some for guns I don't yet own, but are on my list to buy.
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  #49  
Old 06-13-2012, 12:54 PM
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Okay, let me step back a bit and ask Ron-Solo for some assistance in understanding something that I am obviously not seeing. Let's see if we can resolve this.

As a Life Member in both NRA and CRPA, I spend a considerable amount of time attempting to understand the dizzying complexity of California's gun laws. I do so in an attempt to be legal in all I do with firearms as a native Californian, having lived here for 58 of my 62 years. I'm no lawyer and it isn't easy but I do my best.

I have looked at the Penal Code, studied the annual "Summary of California Gun Laws and Basic Safety Rules" that CRPA sends out each year and have studied the positions and descriptions that this forum has published to assist us in understanding the California Gun Laws as well, especially the link that I included in my post above.

So, here is my question that I cannot find an answer to:

How can I (as well as the OP) being non-LEO, non specially licensed FFL, possibly be in legal possession of a Ruger BX-25 magazine?

They were just introduced earlier this year, I could not have owned one prior to the 1-1-2000 cutoff date.

As I understand it, any hi-cap magazine acquired after 1-1-2000 would have to have been acquired in an an illegal transaction. One must have been in possession of the hi-cap magazine prior to 1-1-2000 in order to be in legal possession of it today and they were not available then.

So, how can I be in legal possession of a BX-25 in California (non-LEO, non specially licensed FFL)?

Thanks for your help in understanding this, I appreciate it.

Dan
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  #50  
Old 06-13-2012, 2:08 PM
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Let me take a stab at this,

I have had a 10-22 for 30 years, I have a number of the hotlips 25 round mags, (they are crap) Ruger has come out with the new 25 round mags, I want to replace one of my old mags with the new one from ruger so I order a rebuld kit and use it to replace my old one (if I have 5 25round mag's and order one more I need to destroy the one I am replacing I still have 5 mags)

for my 30 round AR mags I have all the old ones that I have replaced with Pmags I just flatten them with a hammer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Okay, let me step back a bit and ask Ron-Solo for some assistance in understanding something that I am obviously not seeing. Let's see if we can resolve this.

As a Life Member in both NRA and CRPA, I spend a considerable amount of time attempting to understand the dizzying complexity of California's gun laws. I do so in an attempt to be legal in all I do with firearms as a native Californian, having lived here for 58 of my 62 years. I'm no lawyer and it isn't easy but I do my best.

I have looked at the Penal Code, studied the annual "Summary of California Gun Laws and Basic Safety Rules" that CRPA sends out each year and have studied the positions and descriptions that this forum has published to assist us in understanding the California Gun Laws as well, especially the link that I included in my post above.

So, here is my question that I cannot find an answer to:

How can I (as well as the OP) being non-LEO, non specially licensed FFL, possibly be in legal possession of a Ruger BX-25 magazine?

They were just introduced earlier this year, I could not have owned one prior to the 1-1-2000 cutoff date.

As I understand it, any hi-cap magazine acquired after 1-1-2000 would have to have been acquired in an an illegal transaction. One must have been in possession of the hi-cap magazine prior to 1-1-2000 in order to be in legal possession of it today and they were not available then.

So, how can I be in legal possession of a BX-25 in California (non-LEO, non specially licensed FFL)?

Thanks for your help in understanding this, I appreciate it.

Dan
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  #51  
Old 06-13-2012, 2:55 PM
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1. I have an older 25 rd mag for my 10/22 that has a bad follower
2. I buy a BX-25 rebuild kit from a local store, on line' or gun show.
3. I replace the bad follower with one from the kit

I still only have one functioning magazine, and some extra parts

4. I decide that the mag body and spring should be replaced, so I swap those out.
5. Eventually, I swap out all the old parts with new parts.
6. I finish with one functioning magazine that sys BX-25 on it and a bunch of worn out parts.
7. I dispose of all the worn out parts.
8. I have the same number of magazines that I started with.

100% legal for ANYONE to do this, LE or regular Joe. LE doesn't have to worry about it, but us retired LE fall into the regular Joe category as far as mags are concerned.

The same is true of PMags, which were not around before 1-1-2000 either.
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  #52  
Old 06-13-2012, 3:26 PM
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And this is where my misunderstanding came from. It sounds to me as though you are "manufacturing" a BX-25 by using all of the repair parts in the repair kit to basically build a new mag from scratch and toss the parts of the old mag. This still leaves you with the same "number" of 25 round magazines in possession but sounds a bit like a "shell game" to me.

I know it's a fine line and open to interpretation. It would seem to me that whatever old 25 round magazines that existed before 1-1-2000 were of a different design and model type than the BX-25 and parts would not be interchangeable.

A sharp LEO that knows the law well (like the CHP Officer in the OP's original post) would call the ownership into question.

It just seems more like a grey area to me and possibly a bit risky.

Thanks for your clarification though I'm still a bit confused.

Dan
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  #53  
Old 06-13-2012, 3:38 PM
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I understand the theory but in practice, are all the parts from the different mags interchangeable? If not, then how would you use the BX-25 parts to repair Hot Lips or Pmags to replace GI mags.

The other assertion made by a previous post was that whatever you owned legally before the ban was your "lifetime" cap on how many you can have. You can have more but you can't ever exceed what you had over your limit. While true, it doesn't mean you can assemble one out of completely new parts and destroy the old one.
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  #54  
Old 06-13-2012, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
I understand the theory but in practice, are all the parts from the different mags interchangeable? If not, then how would you use the BX-25 parts to repair Hot Lips or Pmags to replace GI mags.

The other assertion made by a previous post was that whatever you owned legally before the ban was your "lifetime" cap on how many you can have. You can have more but you can't ever exceed what you had over your limit. While true, it doesn't mean you can assemble one out of completely new parts and destroy the old one.
So is it your interpretation that if you damage a magazine that is no longer manufactured that you are now sol? Say you are an leo and you buy some pmags before you retire and after you do retire magpul goes out of business and you can't buy replacement parts for that magazine, are you not allowed to have your high capacity magazine anymore?


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  #55  
Old 06-13-2012, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Baconator View Post
So is it your interpretation that if you damage a magazine that is no longer manufactured that you are now sol? Say you are an leo and you buy some pmags before you retire and after you do retire magpul goes out of business and you can't buy replacement parts for that magazine, are you not allowed to have your high capacity magazine anymore?


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If you can't repair it anymore with available parts, yes.

So if you had a Thermold mag that broke, and there are no other mags that you can cannibalize, you can't just assemble a Pmag out of a kit and call it a day.

That would also apply if you just had a mag destroyed, like if you just had an Orlite blown up to pieces... how do you repair that? Assemble a completely new one?

You can claim you replaced it bit by bit and made a new one, but it's a dangerous shell game.

I don't even feel very comfortable with the concept that you are repairing and replacing every single component until 100% of the magazine has been replaced with brand new parts so that nothing of the old magazine remains. I guess if it is the same mag, like you just had 1 GI mag and you bought the same GI mag components over and over and kept rebuilding the same mag with GI mag components, that's okay. But the people that claim they use Pmag parts to repair GI mags until there is no more GI mag and everything is Pmag... it would appear that scenario would be a shell game.
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Last edited by Notorious; 06-13-2012 at 6:21 PM..
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  #56  
Old 06-13-2012, 5:41 PM
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How's this, do whatever it is you want and if you get popped for it, make sure you call the CGF hotline
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  #57  
Old 06-13-2012, 6:16 PM
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Back to the CalCop post, just having a case doesn't mean you have a gun....

Okay, If i stop a guy holding a crack pipe (ignore the pipe a paraphernalia), I'm assuming he's got rock. If I stop a car that has a pistol case, I'm assuming he has a pistol. At minimum I can ask. It's reasonable to assume that possession of gun case= possession of gun. Doesn't make it a bad thing. Just is what it is. I'll ask to see it, so I can play with it and see if I want to buy one later.

I know you are very big on the oathkeepers, but dude, not all cops are out to stomp on the constitution. Some of us just follow laws that the State makes, and go from there. I don't have to arrest anyone (except DV, thanks OJ).
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  #58  
Old 06-13-2012, 6:24 PM
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Yep, we can always ask and get consent, but we don't have a right to start searching based on you having a gun case.
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Old 06-13-2012, 6:38 PM
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Okay, If i stop a guy holding a crack pipe (ignore the pipe a paraphernalia), I'm assuming he's got rock. If I stop a car that has a pistol case, I'm assuming he has a pistol.
That's not the same. A crack pipe is in itself illegal and gives you reasonable suspicion the perp has other illegal stuff, so you get to search for the rock. A gun case is NOT illegal, and does NOT give you reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. You should NOT search the case just to go fishing to see if you can find a violation. Absent other circumstances, in my opinion, you shouldn't even ask for consent to search the case. It is irrelevant.

However, if dude is a felon, he shouldn't be in possession of a firearm, then you have RS and should search the case....there are other scenarios, too, that we don't need to get into.

Quote:
I know you are very big on the oathkeepers, but dude, not all cops are out to stomp on the constitution. Some of us just follow laws that the State makes, and go from there.
As I said earlier in the thread, no one can tell you or I how to balance our oath to the constitution against unconstitutional laws.
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  #60  
Old 06-13-2012, 6:42 PM
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However, if dude is a felon, he shouldn't be in possession of a firearm, then you have RS and should search the case....there are other scenarios, too, that we don't need to get into.
What about the NRP or no-term parolees? Can't even do anything to those guys....
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Old 06-13-2012, 6:47 PM
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What about the NRP or no-term parolees? Can't even do anything to those guys....
Still felon in possession, right?
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Old 06-13-2012, 6:49 PM
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Still felon in possession, right?
Just based on a gun case?
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  #63  
Old 06-13-2012, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Just based on a gun case?
What I'm saying is....if it is Joe citizen, there is no RS that a gun case has anything illegal, hence, I won't ask to search him. However, if I come across a convicted felon, no longer on parole even, I have RS to search the case because it is illegal for him to even have possession of a firearm.
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Last edited by CalCop; 06-13-2012 at 7:16 PM..
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  #64  
Old 06-13-2012, 7:26 PM
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On the possession note, I no longer have them in this state, but if i get orders to come back to this state again and they are going to be stored on a military instilation is there any specifications for that type of situtaion. I was PCS'ing here when i was pulled over so i am still unclear as what i can have in storage on post. I am not a california resident i am just stationed here. Is there any exceptions for military who are out of state residents and going to keep their items stored on the base only or is it just a flat answer of they are not allowed in the state period.
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Old 06-13-2012, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by doc8404 View Post
On the possession note, I no longer have them in this state, but if i get orders to come back to this state again and they are going to be stored on a military instilation is there any specifications for that type of situtaion. I was PCS'ing here when i was pulled over so i am still unclear as what i can have in storage on post. I am not a california resident i am just stationed here. Is there any exceptions for military who are out of state residents and going to keep their items stored on the base only or is it just a flat answer of they are not allowed in the state period.
"flat answer of they are not allowed in the state period".

As assembled mags, it's illegal to import large-capacity mags you did not possess in CA before 1 Jan 2000. While you are still on active duty, mags issued to you by your Uncle are excluded.
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Old 06-13-2012, 8:50 PM
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i have a question about the gun shop i bought my xd from it said not legal for sale in ca it came with no mags. but the shop owner gave me 2 13 rnd "kits" that i keep at home when i go to the range i use my 10 rnd mag but i do keep the 13rnd mags at home loaded for just incase was that shop in the wrong for giving me the mag kits they have shut down the owner has passed away sometime last year
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  #67  
Old 06-13-2012, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by superchgertek View Post
i have a question about the gun shop i bought my xd from it said not legal for sale in ca it came with no mags. but the shop owner gave me 2 13 rnd "kits" that i keep at home when i go to the range i use my 10 rnd mag but i do keep the 13rnd mags at home loaded for just incase was that shop in the wrong for giving me the mag kits they have shut down the owner has passed away sometime last year
If they are assembled and loaded, they are not "kits". If you obtained them as "kits" and assembled them, you are in violation of the law.
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  #68  
Old 06-14-2012, 8:05 AM
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Ok, I have a thought on this. And may be a simple way to explain some of the confusion.

Maybe too simple

disclaimer...this is my understanding and not fact. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG!!!

This is just an example for the sake of making the point.

I have a 92fs.

On 12-31-99 I bought 10 "hi cap mags"
Brand is not relevant.

On 1-2-00 all 10 mags were run over by a steam roller. Total destruction. Nothing salvageable.

I can buy 10 rebuild kits, assemble them and use them. Brand/style does not matter. As long as before the ban I had 10 mags and when I am done "repairing" my kits I still have 10. No more.

Before ban-10 mags. After ban 10 mags. If I keep this number I am safe.

Right???

Again this is just an example for argument sake.


Example
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Old 06-14-2012, 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SARC_Mike View Post
Ok, I have a thought on this. And may be a simple way to explain some of the confusion.

Maybe too simple

disclaimer...this is my understanding and not fact. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG!!!

This is just an example for the sake of making the point.

I have a 92fs.

On 12-31-99 I bought 10 "hi cap mags"
Brand is not relevant.

On 1-2-00 all 10 mags were run over by a steam roller. Total destruction. Nothing salvageable.

I can buy 10 rebuild kits, assemble them and use them. Brand/style does not matter. As long as before the ban I had 10 mags and when I am done "repairing" my kits I still have 10. No more.

Before ban-10 mags. After ban 10 mags. If I keep this number I am safe.

Right???

Again this is just an example for argument sake.


Example
The first problem is you said, ASSEMBLE a kit into a completely new magazine, not replace each part one at a time until nothing is left of the original. That is already illegal. The piecemeal approach, even if it appears to be a shell game, is technically the only legal way to do it. I don't think the law intended to make your preban mag count the post ban possession limit. How would they even know?

How about this.

You hit a pole with your car. You REPAIR the damaged fender with another fender with the parts department.

Or

Your car gets blown up by international terrorists and thrown off a cliff into the ocean because you are a spy and your cover was blown by a mole. There is nothing left of the car. You get another completely new car to REPLACE the old car.

See the difference between repair and replace?

If the prosecutor just explains the difference between those two concepts, you would be praying pretty hard that the jury still sympathizes with you.
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Last edited by Notorious; 06-14-2012 at 9:27 AM..
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:53 PM
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SARC_Mike, I'd suggest that Notorious has the current reasoning correct.

Where things become difficult is implementation/enforcement, and those difficulties seem to me to be characteristics of poorly-conceived law. But, knowing a thing would be hard to prove should not be taken as license to do that thing.
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Old 06-14-2012, 1:30 PM
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I have 'rebuilt' all of my USGI preban high caps into PMAGs because those USGI followers were pure crap and jammed all the time, plus the bodies were beat to hell and back. I also rebuilt an old busted 10/22 mag into a functional Ruger BX25, which are amazing mags by the way.

Though Notorious has a valid argument, its all up for interpretation as to how the law can actually be interpreted. We know the lawmakers didnt intend for us to 'rebuild' high capacity mags in the same way they didnt intend for us to have BB equipped evil looking rifles.

IMO, just dont be a shady individual and end up with more high caps than you started with and dont talk yourself into jail. Its hard enough to prove people illegally building brand new mags, its even harder to prove people are not rebuilding legit old mags piece by piece.
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Old 06-14-2012, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
SARC_Mike, I'd suggest that Notorious has the current reasoning correct.

Where things become difficult is implementation/enforcement, and those difficulties seem to me to be characteristics of poorly-conceived law. But, knowing a thing would be hard to prove should not be taken as license to do that thing.
Ok, so I know I am picking at straws but continuing my example...

I take rebuild kit. Everything except the follower. My follower is from the destroyed mag. I install in and rebuild my mags. Find out my mags dont work well because my original follower is damaged. Install follower from rebuild kit. Now am I safe?

And I fully recognize I am doing a lot of nitpicking here...more just curious.
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Old 06-14-2012, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SARC_Mike View Post
Ok, so I know I am picking at straws but continuing my example...

I take rebuild kit. Everything except the follower. My follower is from the destroyed mag. I install in and rebuild my mags. Find out my mags dont work well because my original follower is damaged. Install follower from rebuild kit. Now am I safe?

And I fully recognize I am doing a lot of nitpicking here...more just curious.
Quite a lot of speculation on magazines has used up pixels at Calguns. (Good thing they're pretty much free.)

About all we really KNOW is what we see from DOJ in this doc. (Sorry, it's scanned as an image, can't cut and paste.) And even there, part of it is one of those 'there are 58 district attorneys who might prosecute anyway' statements.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Last edited by Librarian; 06-14-2012 at 2:56 PM..
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Old 06-14-2012, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Quite a lot of speculation on magazines has used up pixels at Calguns. (Good thing they're pretty much free.)

About all we really KNOW is what we see from DOJ in this doc. (Sorry, it's scanned as an image, can't cut and paste.) And even there, part of it is one of those 'there are 58 district attorneys who might prosecute anyway' statements.
Fair enough. I withdraw my hypothetocals. I have confidence in the legality of my magazines and will leave it at that.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SARC_Mike View Post
Ok, so I know I am picking at straws but continuing my example...

I take rebuild kit. Everything except the follower. My follower is from the destroyed mag. I install in and rebuild my mags. Find out my mags dont work well because my original follower is damaged. Install follower from rebuild kit. Now am I safe?

And I fully recognize I am doing a lot of nitpicking here...more just curious.
Good nit to pick... however, I would submit that if the parts are not compatible, then you are still not "rebuilding" anything.

For example, you take a Pmag versus a GI mag, conceivably, if anything, the only thing that would work in both is the spring. The body, follower and floor plate are all different. Even the spring might not be compatible because of the ends where it is captured by the floor plate and follower.

So, how exactly would you use any of the parts from the donor mag to "repair" anything on the receiver mag?
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