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  #1  
Old 03-27-2013, 7:42 AM
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Mulay El Raisuli Mulay El Raisuli is offline
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Default "The poor man's double"

This was an article in the annual "Guns Digest" about 15 years ago. The idea basically being that a poor man could make a reasonably functional "rifle" out of a standard double barreled shotgun. The key part being, of course, the sights.

Well, I can't find the article on-line anywhere. My local library (North San Diego county) doesn't have back issues. So I can't find out what sights the author used.

But, it occurs to me that maybe there's someone here who either read the original article, or has mounted rifle sights on a double-barreled shotgun for their own reasons. If so, I could use some help/guidance for the project.


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  #2  
Old 03-27-2013, 9:25 AM
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Cal Pappas is an expert on double rifles, so you may want to ask him: http://www.calpappas.com/index.html

I know that NECG makes sights for double rifles and other classic rifles: http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/

Not to deter you from your project, but, here are some functional "poor man's" double rifles which you may want to look into:

Baikal MP 221 Side by Side Break Action Rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDm1H4-yvY

Mike Beliveau (from Guns of the Old West) did a fair review on these rifles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNynB30pSM

I got bitten by the double rifle bug a while ago. I owned 2 Baikal MP221's (in .30-06 Springfield and .45-70 Government) but sold them to purchase a Pedersoli Kodiak Mk. IV in .45-70 Government. The Kodiak has become my most prized hunting rifle:



Good luck with your project, Mulay El Raisuli. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil
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Last edited by 1911ShooterPhil; 03-27-2013 at 9:30 AM.. Reason: Included links...
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  #3  
Old 03-27-2013, 1:00 PM
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Here's some more info for you, Mulay El Raisuli...

This man custom builds, repairs, and regulates double rifles:

Ken Owen, Gunsmith
1200 Slayden Rd.
Moscow, TN 38057
(901) 877-6853

Also, Jim White has turned double barrel shotguns into big bore double rifles:

http://www.jwhitegunsmithing.com/custom.html

And, here's a book that you may want to purchase which should help you with your project...

Building Double Rifles On Shotgun Actions
by W. Ellis Brown,
Publisher Information:
Bunduki Publishing Ft. Collins, CO 2001
http://www.brownells.com/books-video...prod26663.aspx

Hope that helps! Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil
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Last edited by 1911ShooterPhil; 03-27-2013 at 1:02 PM.. Reason: Links, links...
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  #4  
Old 03-28-2013, 7:40 AM
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Mulay El Raisuli Mulay El Raisuli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil View Post
Cal Pappas is an expert on double rifles, so you may want to ask him: http://www.calpappas.com/index.html

I know that NECG makes sights for double rifles and other classic rifles: http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/

Not to deter you from your project, but, here are some functional "poor man's" double rifles which you may want to look into:

Baikal MP 221 Side by Side Break Action Rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDm1H4-yvY

Mike Beliveau (from Guns of the Old West) did a fair review on these rifles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNynB30pSM

I got bitten by the double rifle bug a while ago. I owned 2 Baikal MP221's (in .30-06 Springfield and .45-70 Government) but sold them to purchase a Pedersoli Kodiak Mk. IV in .45-70 Government. The Kodiak has become my most prized hunting rifle:



Good luck with your project, Mulay El Raisuli. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil

Thank you! I see that NECG has the the sights I seek, but they are a bit pricey (money is REAL tight at present) for me. I'll have to wait until my piggy-bank gets bit heavier before I call them.

I like the Baikal double. The very thought of one in .45/70 makes my heart go pitter-pat (not that I can afford one). How'd you like yours?

I've seen the Stoeger Defense doubles as well. They would work quite well for what I have in mind, but the drawback is that I already have a Stoeger "Coach Gun." Also, I'd like to stay as close to "cowboy" looking as I can.

But, I think I should clarify. The original article was about how to get most of the functionality of a double rifle for a lot less money. The idea was to attach rifle sights & then regulate them to one barrel only. The other barrel would then be filled with buckshot. I.E., it wasn't for the true double-barrel experience. Still, the sights would be the same & I really appreciate knowing where to find what I'll need.

Thanks again & have a good day.


The Raisuli
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  #5  
Old 03-28-2013, 8:32 AM
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Mulay El Raisuli,

The Baikal MP221's were a blast, literally. They aren't heavy rifles, so the recoil is noticeable. I thought the recoil from the .30-06 Baikal was a bit more stout than that from the .45-70 Baikal. They are Russian-made guns, so, what they lack in refinement, they make up for in functionality and ruggedness. I was pleased with them, but I happily parted with them both in order to get the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk. IV double rifle.



The Kodiak was an expensive beast, nearly $6K with taxes and DROS...but it's been worth every penny! You usually can't get a well-made used British, French, or German double rifle for less than $10K. I know because I actively hunted around. That's what drew me to the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk. IV, once I found it. The craftsmanship is exquisite with lots of old world features: checkering on the grip and forearm; exposed functional hammers with two triggers; case-hardening on the side plates, trigger guard, triggers, hammers, and forearm takedown assembly; deep, mirror polished blueing on the barrels; and 3 sights: 1 fixed sight regulated for 50 yards, and two individually adjustable sights. And, best part, the Kodiak is as powerful and it is handsome! In the southern parts of the US, I've used the Kodiak while hunting feral pig and Russian boar. I've used Buffalo Bore and Garrett Cartridges and I have literally raked animals from end to end. Not good on the meat, true enough, but great for instant incapacitation if the animal charges.

What you are building is not a double rifle, but what is called a "ball and shot gun" or a "paradox gun". Check this out: http://bigfivehq.com/galleries/s&b.htm

You are basically taking a shotgun and pressing it into service as a hunting rifle. That's doable. The most costly part will be "regulating" the barrels. That can cost you a lot and it'd be cheaper just to buy a Baikal MP221. Regulating a double barrel firearm (shotgun or rifle) is one of the hardest feats in the gunsmithing trade and takes a master gunsmith to do it well. Baikal got around that by using a jackscrew between the barrels which applies pressure at the rear, forcing the chamber end of the barrels to separate and push the muzzle end of the barrels just a tad closer, bringing the overall point of aim of the two barrels, closer. It's crude but effective.

That process is done on a true double rifle before the barrels are set together as one piece. Regulating a true double rifle is a tedious and laborious task, which in the end, makes it costly. If you truly want to go down that route, talk to Ken Owen.

But, I think your best bet is to get the Stoeger Coach Gun's barrels internally threaded for choke tubes and use chokes designed for Foster slugs. Have one barrel set up for slug, the other for buckshot. Since the shotgun has a rib, you can have shotgun rib sights installed and adjust the sights to work with the barrel set up for slug.

I'd recommend talking to Bob Day from R&D Custom Barrel Service:

Bob Day, R&D Custom Barrel Service
8423 Terradell Street
Pico Rivera, CA 90660-5025
(562) 923-3608 or Toll Free (877) 894-3771
E-Mail: americhoke@gmail.com

He's a shotgun gunsmith and may be able to help you with your project. Good luck, Mulay El Raisuli. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil
__________________
"A gun is a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel, or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that." Shane (1953)

Last edited by 1911ShooterPhil; 03-28-2013 at 12:17 PM.. Reason: Added more info...
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  #6  
Old 03-28-2013, 3:57 PM
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Mulay El Raisuli Mulay El Raisuli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil View Post
Mulay El Raisuli,

The Baikal MP221's were a blast, literally. They aren't heavy rifles, so the recoil is noticeable. I thought the recoil from the .30-06 Baikal was a bit more stout than that from the .45-70 Baikal. They are Russian-made guns, so, what they lack in refinement, they make up for in functionality and ruggedness. I was pleased with them, but I happily parted with them both in order to get the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk. IV double rifle.



The Kodiak was an expensive beast, nearly $6K with taxes and DROS...but it's been worth every penny! You usually can't get a well-made used British, French, or German double rifle for less than $10K. I know because I actively hunted around. That's what drew me to the Pedersoli Kodiak Mk. IV, once I found it. The craftsmanship is exquisite with lots of old world features: checkering on the grip and forearm; exposed functional hammers with two triggers; case-hardening on the side plates, trigger guard, triggers, hammers, and forearm takedown assembly; deep, mirror polished blueing on the barrels; and 3 sights: 1 fixed sight regulated for 50 yards, and two individually adjustable sights. And, best part, the Kodiak is as powerful and it is handsome! In the southern parts of the US, I've used the Kodiak while hunting feral pig and Russian boar. I've used Buffalo Bore and Garrett Cartridges and I have literally raked animals from end to end. Not good on the meat, true enough, but great for instant incapacitation if the animal charges.

What you are building is not a double rifle, but what is called a "ball and shot gun" or a "paradox gun". Check this out: http://bigfivehq.com/galleries/s&b.htm

You are basically taking a shotgun and pressing it into service as a hunting rifle. That's doable. The most costly part will be "regulating" the barrels. That can cost you a lot and it'd be cheaper just to buy a Baikal MP221. Regulating a double barrel firearm (shotgun or rifle) is one of the hardest feats in the gunsmithing trade and takes a master gunsmith to do it well. Baikal got around that by using a jackscrew between the barrels which applies pressure at the rear, forcing the chamber end of the barrels to separate and push the muzzle end of the barrels just a tad closer, bringing the overall point of aim of the two barrels, closer. It's crude but effective.

That process is done on a true double rifle before the barrels are set together as one piece. Regulating a true double rifle is a tedious and laborious task, which in the end, makes it costly. If you truly want to go down that route, talk to Ken Owen.

But, I think your best bet is to get the Stoeger Coach Gun's barrels internally threaded for choke tubes and use chokes designed for Foster slugs. Have one barrel set up for slug, the other for buckshot. Since the shotgun has a rib, you can have shotgun rib sights installed and adjust the sights to work with the barrel set up for slug.

I'd recommend talking to Bob Day from R&D Custom Barrel Service:

Bob Day, R&D Custom Barrel Service
8423 Terradell Street
Pico Rivera, CA 90660-5025
(562) 923-3608 or Toll Free (877) 894-3771
E-Mail: americhoke@gmail.com

He's a shotgun gunsmith and may be able to help you with your project. Good luck, Mulay El Raisuli. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil

Oooohhhhhh! That's purty! If I ever win the Lotto, that's on my list.

But for now, I'll have to make do with what I've got. Which, as you point out, is mis-named. "Ball & shot" or "Paradox" would indeed be correct. But I quoted the title of the original article in the hopes that someone here would recognize the title & tell me where (and if) it resides on-line. Alas, no joy.

Basically, I'll be doing as you suggest & regulating one barrel for slugs & using buckshot in the other. But I've never heard of "shotgun rib sights." My Coach Gun has a nice, solid rib which I figure is strong enough to handle the addition of sights. Can you recommend a source?


The Raisuli
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2013, 5:51 PM
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Default Some ideas for you, Mulay El Raisuli...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulay El Raisuli View Post
Oooohhhhhh! That's purty! If I ever win the Lotto, that's on my list.

But for now, I'll have to make do with what I've got. Which, as you point out, is mis-named. "Ball & shot" or "Paradox" would indeed be correct. But I quoted the title of the original article in the hopes that someone here would recognize the title & tell me where (and if) it resides on-line. Alas, no joy.

Basically, I'll be doing as you suggest & regulating one barrel for slugs & using buckshot in the other. But I've never heard of "shotgun rib sights." My Coach Gun has a nice, solid rib which I figure is strong enough to handle the addition of sights. Can you recommend a source?


The Raisuli
My best recommendation would be to contact Bob Day at R&D Custom Barrel Service. He'd know far more than me about shotguns. I'm not really a shotgun guy. Speak with Bob Day about installing choke tubes on your gun. RemChoke is probably the most commonly available shotgun choke on the market these days, but ask Bob. Carlson's Choke Tubes makes a choke tube that is rifled, so you'll basically have a modern version of a "paradox gun" if you get those.

Check these out: http://www.choketube.com/choke-tube-...ke-Tubes&mf=16

The "Rifled Choke Tube" would work well with Foster slugs. As far as sights, if a gunsmith milled a dovetail into the rib, you could easily mount dovetail sights onto the rib.

As far as the sights...that's a good question. I do not know exactly what you should do for that. If the rib is thick enough, which it sounds like it is, then you should be able to have a gunsmith mill it for a 3/8" dovetail on the front and back. There are literally tons and tons of 3/8" dovetail sights out there (front and rear). Check out www.Brownells.com and www.MidwayUSA.com and you'll see what I mean.

You know...I know a gunsmith who is good at doing "extreme custom jobs" like this...he's in Orange County. His name is Mark Bunach, the OC Gunsmith:

Mark Bunach - Master Gunsmith
949-306-2028
http://www.ocgunsmith.com/

You may want to give him a call and discuss your project. He's an "old school" gunsmith and likes a challenge. Good luck with your project. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil
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  #8  
Old 03-29-2013, 6:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil View Post
My best recommendation would be to contact Bob Day at R&D Custom Barrel Service. He'd know far more than me about shotguns. I'm not really a shotgun guy. Speak with Bob Day about installing choke tubes on your gun. RemChoke is probably the most commonly available shotgun choke on the market these days, but ask Bob. Carlson's Choke Tubes makes a choke tube that is rifled, so you'll basically have a modern version of a "paradox gun" if you get those.

Check these out: http://www.choketube.com/choke-tube-...ke-Tubes&mf=16

The "Rifled Choke Tube" would work well with Foster slugs. As far as sights, if a gunsmith milled a dovetail into the rib, you could easily mount dovetail sights onto the rib.

As far as the sights...that's a good question. I do not know exactly what you should do for that. If the rib is thick enough, which it sounds like it is, then you should be able to have a gunsmith mill it for a 3/8" dovetail on the front and back. There are literally tons and tons of 3/8" dovetail sights out there (front and rear). Check out www.Brownells.com and www.MidwayUSA.com and you'll see what I mean.

You know...I know a gunsmith who is good at doing "extreme custom jobs" like this...he's in Orange County. His name is Mark Bunach, the OC Gunsmith:

Mark Bunach - Master Gunsmith
949-306-2028
http://www.ocgunsmith.com/

You may want to give him a call and discuss your project. He's an "old school" gunsmith and likes a challenge. Good luck with your project. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil

Well, I certainly hope milling dovetails into a rib doesn't rate as "extreme" gunsmithing. I am on a (tight) budget after all. But that would simplify things a great deal.

I have already sent him an e-mail. I'll let you know how this goes.

Thanks again.


The Raisuli
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  #9  
Old 03-29-2013, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulay El Raisuli View Post
Well, I certainly hope milling dovetails into a rib doesn't rate as "extreme" gunsmithing. I am on a (tight) budget after all. But that would simplify things a great deal.

I have already sent him an e-mail. I'll let you know how this goes.

Thanks again.

The Raisuli

No, milling isn't extreme; turning a Coach Gun into a Paradox Gun...now that's extreme.

Milling is a simple process; but, things can get dicey depending on the type of steel the rib is made with, how solid the rib is, how tall the rib is, and how close the rib is in relation to the barrels. Then, the hard part is determining which sights to use. It's a matter of trigonometry and budget. Your budget may limit things a bit. This could be an expensive undertaking, Mulay El Raisuli, so may you want to consider that. Gunsmiths are expensive because they have a rare commodity: firearm-fixing magic.

All the gunsmiths I recommended in this thread are master gunsmiths, so, while they charge accordingly, they have the ability to sort out your troubles and get you what you what in the end: a functional, hard-hitting "ball and shot gun". I think that's worth your time and money in the end. It always feels great to finish a long-awaited gun project.

Yes, please let me know how it goes. Again, best of luck. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil
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  #10  
Old 03-30-2013, 6:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil View Post
No, milling isn't extreme; turning a Coach Gun into a Paradox Gun...now that's extreme.

Milling is a simple process; but, things can get dicey depending on the type of steel the rib is made with, how solid the rib is, how tall the rib is, and how close the rib is in relation to the barrels. Then, the hard part is determining which sights to use. It's a matter of trigonometry and budget. Your budget may limit things a bit. This could be an expensive undertaking, Mulay El Raisuli, so may you want to consider that. Gunsmiths are expensive because they have a rare commodity: firearm-fixing magic.

All the gunsmiths I recommended in this thread are master gunsmiths, so, while they charge accordingly, they have the ability to sort out your troubles and get you what you what in the end: a functional, hard-hitting "ball and shot gun". I think that's worth your time and money in the end. It always feels great to finish a long-awaited gun project.

Yes, please let me know how it goes. Again, best of luck. Cheers! --1911ShooterPhil

Well, they are real expensive. And it isn't as if I don't appreciate their skills, I just don't think I can afford them. I think I'm going to have to wait a bit on this. One more thing to try though before I give up.


The Raisuli
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  #11  
Old 04-03-2013, 7:21 PM
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Here's the article:

https://sites.google.com/site/mikeha...blerifle/1.jpg

https://sites.google.com/site/mikeha...blerifle/2.jpg

https://sites.google.com/site/mikeha...blerifle/3.jpg

I'm WAY too lazy to edit and pretty the pictures up.

Just FYI - Gun Digest offers all back annuals on DVD for a pretty good price.

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Com...dp/1440235937/

Well worth buying!



-- Michael

Last edited by elSquid; 04-03-2013 at 7:33 PM.. Reason: fricking googlepages
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2013, 7:28 AM
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Mulay El Raisuli Mulay El Raisuli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
Here's the article:

https://sites.google.com/site/mikeha...blerifle/1.jpg

https://sites.google.com/site/mikeha...blerifle/2.jpg

https://sites.google.com/site/mikeha...blerifle/3.jpg

I'm WAY too lazy to edit and pretty the pictures up.

Just FYI - Gun Digest offers all back annuals on DVD for a pretty good price.

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Com...dp/1440235937/

Well worth buying!



-- Michael

Oh, bless you!




BTW, I'm still working on the cheap alternative. Now that I can re-read the original article, that may change things. Stay tuned.


The Raisuli
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