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  #1  
Old 04-03-2018, 1:05 PM
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Default Calif. Change from Reasonable to Nessecary Force

Change coming on use of force?

According to the press conference, an example is not to engage, and wait for backup, or to not provoke a suspect into fleeing, should he be hit by a car, the LEO will be held liable.

What kind of effect will this have on active enforcement?

https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.g...olice-54201152

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Last edited by Bunyfofu69; 04-03-2018 at 1:12 PM..
  #2  
Old 04-03-2018, 1:26 PM
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Allow the scum to run-amuck


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Old 04-03-2018, 4:36 PM
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2018, 5:24 PM
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Default Calif. Change from Reasonable to Nessecary Force

Ugh. My brother is CHP and it’s things like this that make me concerned for him (and all other LEOs).
  #5  
Old 04-03-2018, 5:43 PM
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This state is a train wreck
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Old 04-03-2018, 5:47 PM
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Its very problematic. It wouldn't solve what happened in Sac nor would it prevent similar events. The pursuing officers believed the suspect had a gun (or saw what they thought was a gun). If an officer believes an individual has a firearm, responding with gunfire IS "necessary force." If it turns out that individual only had a cell phone, its unfortunate. But if I'm faced with what I believe is a gun pointed at me, the force I respond with is going to be what I perceive as necessary...

Changing the use of deadly force from "reasonable" to "necessary" doesn't make an LEO's job easier. And holding officer's criminally liable for any force deemed "not necessary" is backwards. And nevermind the thousands who are killed by criminals each year, its the cops we have to worry about
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Old 04-03-2018, 6:02 PM
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I wish the internet would crash for a few days......
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Old 04-03-2018, 6:33 PM
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So if there’s a possible person with gun/active shooter just hang out and wait. That didn’t work very well in Florida.
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Old 04-03-2018, 7:32 PM
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Old 04-03-2018, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tnlrat37 View Post
So if there’s a possible person with gun/active shooter just hang out and wait. That didn’t work very well in Florida.
We'll have to first try to talk them down, next use less-lethal, and hope they don't gun us down. Then after exhausting all other means, maybe we'll get to shoot back. Maybe.
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Old 04-03-2018, 8:41 PM
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Two words...

Broward County.

You get what you ask for California. How many kids are gonna die?

Sounds dramatic? Last count as of a couple months ago was 17 while a bunch of cops waited for backup. 17 kids who will never come home to their parents. It's unacceptable and despicable, but much of California seems to think it's the way cops should do business. If this passes people will die because of it. That said, it's never stopped the government of CA before.

While we watch a country be guided so expertly into anger over assault weapons (because 17 is too many, but hey... we're not after your guns... 15 is okay with a handgun. Or maybe that's too much so 6 is okay with a revolver. Wait... We're okay with one dead child because it was a muzzle loader...) we're ignoring the fact that the Parkland shooter could have been stopped before he started. He could have been stopped during his rampage.

Yet we ignore because it doesn't fit the agenda.

Anyone who wants to ban assault weapons is eventually going to want to ban semi auto rifles, handguns, revolvers, muzzle-loaders, sharp knives, pointy sticks, rocks, and mean attitudes... Or they are ok with people dying because they don't want to solve the problem... they just want "the problem" to not be so bad.

Interesting times.
  #12  
Old 04-03-2018, 8:43 PM
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What I'd really like to see is the actual text.

I've just spent half an hour reading assorted articles that mention "Police Accountability and Community Protection Act".

It's past time for new bills to be introduced, so this has to be a gut and amend of an existing bill. But none of the articles bothers to mention the bill number. Introduced today, the actual text won't be officially available until later in the week.
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  #13  
Old 04-03-2018, 9:03 PM
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i can’t see this law ever getting enacted.

The SCOTUS has already made rulings pertaining to these manners.

Graham vs. Connor and
Tennessee vs Garner.

While new laws can be enacted, I think the one being proposed would be difficult to get past the Supreme Court, based on the two court cases I cited above.

Then again, if the law does get enacted..... boy can you imagine every single cop in the state suddenly going out on a “stress case” because they realize that they can no longer protect themselves the way they did prior to the law being passed?

I can imagine 30,000 cops in this state instantly filing stress related injury claims because of this ruling. 4850 time would be through the roof and the state would be in anarchy. The law would be repealed over night.
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Old 04-03-2018, 9:10 PM
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stupid assh people!!!!!!

Last edited by retired; 04-14-2018 at 1:34 PM..
  #15  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:01 PM
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This state is a train wreck
Agreed. It’s bad. This is just horrible.
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  #16  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyfofu69 View Post
Change coming on use of force?

According to the press conference, an example is not to engage, and wait for backup, or to not provoke a suspect into fleeing, should he be hit by a car, the LEO will be held liable.

What kind of effect will this have on active enforcement?

https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.g...olice-54201152

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This reminds me of when the LAPD was forbidden to use a choke hold to subdue a perp failing to follow officers orders. Instead they were left with their batons as a non-lethal use of force. The result was the Rodney King beating and subsequent riots.

At some point the police are just going to stop being law enforcement and just be security monitors.


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Old 04-04-2018, 7:12 PM
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I pity (and pray for) any cop working the streets these days. I'm so glad to be retired. When will the lunacy coming out of Sacramento stop?
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  #18  
Old 04-04-2018, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by yzernie View Post
I pity (and pray for) any cop working the streets these days. I'm so glad to be retired. When will the lunacy coming out of Sacramento stop?
It is sad. I am glad I retired when I retired...
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Old 04-04-2018, 7:54 PM
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It can't really go anywhere. The case of Graham v Connor pretty much set the reasonable officer standard. I don't see how they can deviate from that without the supreme court making some sort of drastically different ruling.
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  #20  
Old 04-04-2018, 8:02 PM
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When a Police Officer gives you a command you follow without question.
You address them as YES Sir, No Sir.
You keep your hands where they can see them.
You do NOT run.
You DO NOT reach for ANYTHING.
You tell them your Identification is in your right, left, front, back pocket and ASK them if they would like to retrieve it or if they can get it for them.
Had these been followed NO ONE would have been harmed...NO ONE.
EVERYONE shot has run, not listened to commands, or reached for their waist.
Finally, NO LAW will stop Law Enforcement from protecting themselves from harm.
TEACH ALL Children and people how to ACT when in the presence of Law Enforcement and no one will get hurt
  #21  
Old 04-04-2018, 8:13 PM
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It wasn't always my planned path but I ended up as a detective wearing a suit and tie and sitting at a computer. Boy am I thankful for that now. I just might start asking for extensions when my rotation is up too.

If stuff likes this starts getting passed I just might quit this job. I refuse to be left as a defenseless target. Anyone who has even the slightest understanding of perception/reactions knows this is a death sentence for cops. Completely unacceptable.
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Old 04-04-2018, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by yzernie View Post
I pity (and pray for) any cop working the streets these days. I'm so glad to be retired. When will the lunacy coming out of Sacramento stop?
Well, when the SPD and CHP higher ups finally allow their officers do their jobs during these protests instead of enabling the protestors, that would be a good start.
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Old 04-04-2018, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CinnamonBear723 View Post
It wasn't always my planned path but I ended up as a detective wearing a suit and tie and sitting at a computer. Boy am I thankful for that now. I just might start asking for extensions when my rotation is up too.

If stuff likes this starts getting passed I just might quit this job. I refuse to be left as a defenseless target. Anyone who has even the slightest understanding of perception/reactions knows this is a death sentence for cops. Completely unacceptable.
My wife said that she doesn’t want me out on patrol if crap like this gets passed. I don’t blame her either.
  #24  
Old 04-05-2018, 8:58 AM
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Our lawmakers based this proposal on their vast education, training and experience in law enforcement. Please add sarcasm as needed. Heaven help us.
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Old 04-05-2018, 9:18 AM
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Well, when the SPD and CHP higher ups finally allow their officers do their jobs during these protests instead of enabling the protestors, that would be a good start.
F'ed up management and supervision is a topic for a whole different discussion. I knew I would never go any higher than a Patrol Sgt when I voiced my opinion to upper management about some stupid decisions they made without talking to the people who are actually out there doing the job. Boy, they didn't like that!!
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I don't feel a thing when some cop gets ghosted.
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Old 04-05-2018, 4:36 PM
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The future in CA?
(Security Monitor)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGDlZ1Thzrk

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Old 04-05-2018, 8:50 PM
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I can see a mass exodus of law enforcement from California. I won’t feel sorry for the state one bit.
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Old 04-06-2018, 7:19 AM
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Don't know who did it but thanks for removing the instigator's posts!!
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I don't feel a thing when some cop gets ghosted.
  #29  
Old 04-07-2018, 5:56 PM
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Unions are freaked. I'm at UoF training right now, instructors are freaked also.

I want to say PORAC released a statement the other day. I haven't had a chance to read it.
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Old 04-07-2018, 8:33 PM
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Well, if this passes maybe i’ll Keep driving my desk until I bounce outta the state. Cali can then replace me with one of our current crop of “yes men/women” social workers who don’t actually care to make a real difference doing real police work in their beat
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Old 04-08-2018, 6:04 PM
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If California voters pass this bill, then they deserve the lawless state that they will surely get. Recidivist criminals already have no respect for our society of laws or for the men and women charged with enforcing those laws. Unfortunately, even though the U.S. Supreme Court has set standards for government use of force, states and local jurisdictions are free to set more restrictive standards on their agents. While Graham v. Connor may prevent California officers for being subject to suits brought under Federal law, nothing will prevent them from being sued, prosecuted, and imprisoned for violations of California law.

San Francisco PD is already subject to a "minimum force" standard (enacted through local Department general orders) instead of the usual "reasonable force" standard. It doesn't take a MENSA gathering to see that San Francisco is beset by rampant lawlessness -- mostly due to decades of so-called progressive policies and cops that are hampered by agency policies that give every edge, advantage, and courtesy to savvy criminals who work the system.

If this passes, except to see a marked drop in any enforcement action on any call from any cop in the state. It'll be safer, both physically and legally, to take no action and argue that you were attempting to "utilize time and distance", "wait for sufficient backup to avoid instigating a lethal conflict", "trying to build rapport with the suspect", or "attempting to deploy less lethal force options."

In the end, it will be citizens disarmed by ridiculous California gun laws that lose out. Most cops will still risk a trial by jury over death by gunfire. Risking incarceration for taking reasonable, justifiable action that unfortunately resulted in the death of a violent, resistive criminal? Probably not.
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Old 04-08-2018, 7:21 PM
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If California voters pass this bill,
It's a bill in the Legislature - no voter input after election of legislators, unless it should be pulled into a referendum.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Old 04-08-2018, 11:11 PM
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It's a bill in the Legislature - no voter input after election of legislators, unless it should be pulled into a referendum.
Again, it blows my mind that the masses don’t see that as a problem. Not just the bill, but the fact that the Governor and legislators can simply put bills and laws into place as they please.

Forget about the checks and balances or putting it to the vote of the people. Authoritative lawmaking is what we need in CA.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:35 PM
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Again, it blows my mind that the masses don’t see that as a problem. Not just the bill, but the fact that the Governor and legislators can simply put bills and laws into place as they please.

Forget about the checks and balances or putting it to the vote of the people. Authoritative lawmaking is what we need in CA.
Much longer would be really off topic, but that's a lot of the difference between 'direct democracy' and 'representative democracy'.
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[Carol Ann voice]The Legislature is baaa-ack .... [/Carol Ann voice]

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 04-09-2018, 8:15 PM
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Much longer would be really off topic, but that's a lot of the difference between 'direct democracy' and 'representative democracy'.


CA is a Democracy?


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Old 04-09-2018, 8:26 PM
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CA is a Democracy?


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The word Democracy is NOT in any state Constitution. Like all other states in the Union California is at best a Democratic Republic. Our flag says CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC
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Old 04-09-2018, 8:43 PM
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The word Democracy is NOT in any state Constitution. Like all other states in the Union California is at best a Democratic Republic. Our flag says CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC



Kinda of like the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea?


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Old 04-09-2018, 9:17 PM
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Dropping into political theory is off topic for this forum; as already noted, the best place for such a discussion is Off Topic, since the subject is neither guns nor 2nd Amendment.
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[Carol Ann voice]The Legislature is baaa-ack .... [/Carol Ann voice]

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


  #39  
Old 04-10-2018, 6:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esy View Post
Again, it blows my mind that the masses don’t see that as a problem. Not just the bill, but the fact that the Governor and legislators can simply put bills and laws into place as they please.

Forget about the checks and balances or putting it to the vote of the people. Authoritative lawmaking is what we need in CA.
Even if they put it to a vote for the people to decide, they’d name it something cleaver like “The Law Enforcement Safety Act” and it’ll pass just like AB109 and props 47, 57 and 64.
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Old 04-11-2018, 3:21 PM
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Well, we've seen municipalities voting to omit themselves from state sanctuary laws, so I would not be surprised if that would happen here as well.

Agreed that this will not pass legal muster in constitutional ruling via stare decisis of Graham v. Connor and Tennessee v. Garner. Even before then, with consideration for the lack of horizontal stare decisis, each district can choose to interpret legislative intent of the law however they see fit until vertical stare decisis comes into play.

Then again, I really don't see any conservative jurisdictions complying even after a CA Appellate or CA SC rules for the law. We are at the extreme cases of ideals in this era and I feel that it is literally a good v. evil battle now.

Last edited by anbu_yoshi; 04-11-2018 at 5:04 PM..
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