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  #1  
Old 10-16-2018, 5:50 AM
B Gardner B Gardner is offline
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Default Can't have a C&R rifle shipped to me anymore??

I purchased a C&R rifle from out of state last month and had it shipped to my home with no problems.
I have a C&R and a COE which has always been all I needed to provide to have rifles shipped directly to my home.
Since California changed their rules about registering rifles I thought all I had to do after receiving a C&R rifle was to register it within 10 days.
I just won an auction on GunBroker and the seller says he called California ATF and they told him he has to ship to a 01FFL.
C&R holders even with a COE can no longer have any weapons shipped to them.
Is this true? When did it go into effect? If so I guess the only thing they are good for now is to have ammo shipped to you from out of state.

Last edited by B Gardner; 10-16-2018 at 5:59 AM..
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2018, 6:21 AM
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Nothings changed as far as I know. But, doesn’t surprise me to find someone on Gunbroker with concerns shipping a gun into CA unless to a 01. There’s a lot of sentiment towards CA for obvious reasons so expect to find some who are apprehensive about transfers.

Also, with regards to ammo—some online dealers I believe SG Ammo is one who have just completely cutoff 03’s from receiving ammo in state. But, others like Target Sports will ship based off what county you live in.

My advice is contact the seller beforehand about shipping to CA so you’ll avoid surprises.
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Old 10-16-2018, 6:50 AM
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You’re going to get wildly varying answers on this.

CA DOJ likes to bully FFL’s, particularly out of state ones.

In short- some sellers don’t care and will ship to FFL03/COE, some sellers won’t even ship an antique to CA unless FFL01, some won’t ship a set of grips to CA. Once you do your part on talking to the seller you’re at their mercy.
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  #4  
Old 10-16-2018, 7:00 AM
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a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
Pc27585
I don't believe any of the exceptions apply.
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  #5  
Old 10-16-2018, 7:03 AM
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The post on another thread about some Cabela's doing exactly the same thing..


From Cabelas C&R Policy thread:

"The first person I spoke with told me California law no longer allows them to do this. He said the law changed this year. I know and you know this is not correct. I asked him to show me his source for this and he was unable. I wound up talking to a more experienced employee in the gun library (I have his card, but I am not going to include his name here) and he told me in essence that CA DOJ twisted Bass Pro/Cabelas figurative arm and they will only sell cartrige firing firearms to CA residents, irrespective of licensing, by shipping to a CA 01 FFL. Fine, it is not the law, but it is their policy and they are entitled to implement whatever policy makes the best sense to their business."

I'm sure smaller kitchen table FFL's, Pawn shops, backwater lgs's and Cabela's etc etc are NOT conspiring together against CA..

I'm getting the feeling when they call about the laws of the week in CA that is the answer they are getting..I'm sure they are not ALL lying..
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Old 10-16-2018, 12:09 PM
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Another useless law that proves itself ineffective and a waste of California resources.
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  #7  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom_shooter View Post
Also, with regards to ammo—some online dealers I believe SG Ammo is one who have just completely cutoff 03’s from receiving ammo in state. But, others like Target Sports will ship based off what county you live in.
Actually, not only has SGAmmo stopped all orders for CA 03FFL holders, they have ceased all CA orders period.
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2018, 5:40 PM
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Empire Arms was also told no shipping to CA 03FFL https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1474228
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Old 10-16-2018, 5:55 PM
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Not sure what is surprising. You can't have a firearm shipped directly to you from out of state just because you're an FFL03. Been the case for a few years now...
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  #10  
Old 10-16-2018, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
Pc27585
I don't believe any of the exceptions apply.
Yes, the law changed quite some time ago, yet people are not aware of it and some make things up to claim that they are exempt, yet they can never state what the exemption to CA PC 27858 actually is.

There is an exemption for 27585 if the person takes possession outside of CA (27565).
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  #11  
Old 10-16-2018, 6:13 PM
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Doesn't it seem it's a step in making FFL03 invalid in CA? Maybe in near future not allowing any FFL03 transfers.
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Old 10-16-2018, 6:40 PM
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Yes. Every piece of legislation is a step toward restricting gun ownership
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2018, 8:03 PM
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You will also note that on CRIS, there are two "C&R registration" type forms. If you click on "help me with which form I need" it describes them both. The first is "in-state acquisition of C&R". So you can't use that for something shipped from out of state. The other is just "C&R firearm report", but the description says that under 27565 you can buy out of state and carry back in. That's the exemption Kemasa mentioned. Neither of those would work for the gunbroker out of state method. Unless you can find a friendly dealer just the other side of the state line, and the seller agrees to ship there, you could go pick it up that way. Fees and gas money will add up, at which point it might be cheaper just to mail to an 01 as intended. But hey, you can skip the 10 day wait...if your 01 understands that exemption.
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B Gardner View Post
I purchased a C&R rifle from out of state last month and had it shipped to my home with no problems.
I have a C&R and a COE which has always been all I needed to provide to have rifles shipped directly to my home.
Since California changed their rules about registering rifles I thought all I had to do after receiving a C&R rifle was to register it within 10 days.
I just won an auction on GunBroker and the seller says he called California ATF and they told him he has to ship to a 01FFL.
C&R holders even with a COE can no longer have any weapons shipped to them.
Is this true? When did it go into effect? If so I guess the only thing they are good for now is to have ammo shipped to you from out of state.
Starting 01-01-2015, a CA resident must utilize a CA FFL dealer to legally import a firearm into CA that they acquire in another State. [PC 27585(a)]
The exemption to this for a CA resident with a valid C&R FFL, requires that person to physically travel out-of-state and bring it to CA. [PC 27585(b)(1)]

Since these CA import laws went into effect, there is no longer an exemption for a C&R long gun to be shipped from out-of-state to a CA resident with a valid C&R FFL and valid COE.


Penal Code 27585
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.

Penal Code 27565
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.
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  #15  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:23 AM
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Have it shipped to an out of state family member. When you visit at xmas, bring it home. I just bought a Shotgun in GA with my C&R. Flew it home on southwest. Just plan around it, not the end of the world. Now, the 19 buck C&R acquisition form I have to send in is pure BS but hey, I like to surf and so I live in California. Price i pay.
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B Gardner View Post
...
I just won an auction on GunBroker and the seller says he called California ATF and they told him he has to ship to a 01FFL.
...
Aren't DOJ staff prohibited from giving legal advice ... especially when it is wrong?

Quiet has accurately cited the law in this matter. It nowhere states that a seller must ship to an 01FFL. The buyer/receiving party is the one whose neck is on the line. The seller is not violating the statutes by shipping to an 03FFL.

If DOJ cares, shouldn't they be prosecuting the persons receiving such firearms rather than lying (allegedly) to out of state sellers?

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  #17  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
Aren't DOJ staff prohibited from giving legal advice ... especially when it is wrong?
It isn't wrong as it involves an illegal act.

Quote:
Quiet has accurately cited the law in this matter. It nowhere states that a seller must ship to an 01FFL. The buyer/receiving party is the one whose neck is on the line. The seller is not violating the statutes by shipping to an 03FFL.
It states that it can't be shipped directly. It would be stupid to say that it has to be shipped to an 01FFL as an 07FFL is also a dealer, so since it can't be shipped directly, it has to be shipped to a CA Firearms Dealer, regardless of what Federal license the business has.

It is still illegal and they might be able to go after the shipper, which even if they win would cost a lot of money. The problem is with the CA law and the politicians, due to the real problem being with the voters who vote for those politicians.

Quote:
If DOJ cares, shouldn't they be prosecuting the persons receiving such firearms rather than lying (allegedly) to out of state sellers?
It is hard to catch the person since either the form is filled out and they don't know if the person went out of state or not or the form isn't filled out and they don't know.

Regardless, it is illegal and the details of who can be charged doesn't really matter.

Talking about how to get around the law is a really bad idea on a public forum as it can be used against gun owners.
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  #18  
Old 10-18-2018, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
...

Talking about how to get around the law is a really bad idea on a public forum as it can be used against gun owners.
I'm not suggesting that anyone attempt to get around the statutes. I'm not willing to risk my license or liberty by having a firearm directly shipped to me from out of state. The law seems clear to me (although I do know that the bill which created this issue originally included an exemption for such shipments).

That exemption needs to be reinstated but there doesn't seem to be much interest in getting that done. I've written to my legislators, for what it is worth, but I don't live in friendly country.

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  #19  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:21 AM
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How does this impact CMP shipments?

This is absurd.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
How does this impact CMP shipments?

This is absurd.
Must go through 01 FFL now.

California basically killed off 03 FFL/COE for everything except face to face transactions within the state boarders.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
Must go through 01 FFL now.

California basically killed off 03 FFL/COE for everything except face to face transactions within the state boarders.
Well at least I won't have to wait the seven months for them to return confirmation of registration anymore.

The Supreme Court needs to just come in and eviscerate this state. Please, dear God in heaven, let justice be brought to the land of California just in the same way you brought justice to your people in Egypt.

This is just absurd.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
California basically killed off 03 FFL/COE for everything except face to face transactions within the state boarders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
Well at least I won't have to wait the seven months for them to return confirmation of registration anymore.
You can still FTF a handgun or long gun outside of California and bring it into the state, private or dealer sale.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
You can still FTF a handgun or long gun outside of California and bring it into the state, private or dealer sale.
You could, but the penal code says any firearm that is imported must go through an FFL, meaning it would have to be shipped to your local FFL of choice even if you bought it out of state with your 03. Don't be surprised if stores still tell you no.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
You can still FTF a handgun or long gun outside of California and bring it into the state, private or dealer sale.
Another route to legally comply would be to get an 03 out of state (another residence you own for instance) have stuff shipped there, take posession there, bring it in and transfer it to your A&D book here, and then send in the form.

All in all, this is becoming more like data entry and compliance monitoring as the primary activity with collecting being the secondary function.

Please God hear our prayers. Thanks for sending us President Trump and Justice Kavanaugh. Let them do your work on the DOJ and our state.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
You could, but the penal code says any firearm that is imported must go through an FFL, meaning it would have to be shipped to your local FFL of choice even if you bought it out of state with your 03. Don't be surprised if stores still tell you no.
The 03FFL satisfies the code requirement that the transfer go through an FFL for out-of-state transactions.
Quiet posted the code above:

Penal Code 27585
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.


Penal Code 27565
(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:
(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.
(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.
(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the department.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

Last edited by Cokebottle; 10-20-2018 at 2:28 PM..
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
You could, but the penal code says any firearm that is imported must go through an FFL, meaning it would have to be shipped to your local FFL of choice even if you bought it out of state with your 03. Don't be surprised if stores still tell you no.
No, it is still legal for a 03FFL to purchase a C&R pistol or long gun in person, out of state and bring it back with them. They must register it within 5 days of bringing it into the state via form BOF 4100A
Read Penal Code 27585 and Penal Code 27565.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
Must go through 01 FFL now.

California basically killed off 03 FFL/COE for everything except face to face transactions within the state boarders.
This is false. FFL03/COE can also received C&Rs shipped within state border.
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Old 10-20-2018, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
No, it is still legal for a 03FFL to purchase a C&R pistol or long gun in person, out of state and bring it back with them. They must register it within 5 days of bringing it into the state via form BOF 4100A
Read Penal Code 27585 and Penal Code 27565.
Yeah, I just did so recently (purchase of C&R rifle) while on a road trip. I carried a copy of all relevant PC sections along with me. Seller was surprised when I told him that CA 03FFLs can no longer have long guns shipped directly to them. He told me that they ship guns to CA "all the time".

Day after I returned, I submitted the BOF form online. Done.

Nonetheless, the original exemption in the bill needs to be reinstated. Someone needs to work with amenable legislators to get this done. It makes no sense.

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  #29  
Old 10-20-2018, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
Nonetheless, the original exemption in the bill needs to be reinstated. Someone needs to work with amenable legislators to get this done. It makes no sense.
AFAIK...
It was removed by the CA senate public safety committee when they were discussing the CA resident firearm importation legislation in 2014, because they wanted to close that "loophole".
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Old 10-21-2018, 1:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
AFAIK...
It was removed by the CA senate public safety committee when they were discussing the CA resident firearm importation legislation in 2014, because they wanted to close that "loophole".
Section 27585 was added by AB 1609. On or about 23 May 2014, the proposed wording of 27585(a)(6) was amended to strike out

Quote:
(A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27966.
and replaced it with

Quote:
A person who complies with subdivision (b) of Section 27875.
This is when the problem arose. It actually seems to have happened before it got to the Senate. The history and versions of the bill can be found at:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01320140AB1609

The Bill analysis makes clear that the purpose of the law was to stop the illegal trafficking of firearms and NOT to interfere with lawful Collectors. See, for example:

Quote:
Every day, guns are being purchased across state lines in Nevada and Arizona, trafficked
into California, and sold to criminals on our streets. ...
This bill will not affect those who abide by the law, only those who break it."
and

Quote:
Anyone who complies with the federal “direct ship” mandate, the new residence procedures,
or the collector procedures is fully protected by this bill. The people who are not protected
are the criminal element.
and

Quote:
(b) It is not the intent of the Legislature in enacting Section 27585 to affect any of the following:
[...]
(4) Persons who import or bring firearms into California under existing regulatory statutes who comply with those statutes.
There were no existing regulatory statutes before that time that precluded Collectors from direct shipment of long guns according to Federal law. The way that the bill was amended and written into law clearly violates the intent of the Legislature and the purpose of the bill. If the effect were intentional, there should be some record to that effect. I have found none.
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  #31  
Old 10-21-2018, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
Must go through 01 FFL now.

California basically killed off 03 FFL/COE for everything except face to face transactions within the state boarders.
Last time I checked a non-licensee CA seller can still ship a C&R long gun to 03 FFL/COE buyer within California. Or has the common interpretation of those laws changed again?
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2018, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hinnerk View Post
Section 27585 was added by AB 1609. On or about 23 May 2014, the proposed wording of 27585(a)(6) was amended to strike out



and replaced it with



This is when the problem arose. It actually seems to have happened before it got to the Senate. The history and versions of the bill can be found at:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01320140AB1609

The Bill analysis makes clear that the purpose of the law was to stop the illegal trafficking of firearms and NOT to interfere with lawful Collectors. See, for example:



and



and



There were no existing regulatory statutes before that time that precluded Collectors from direct shipment of long guns according to Federal law. The way that the bill was amended and written into law clearly violates the intent of the Legislature and the purpose of the bill. If the effect were intentional, there should be some record to that effect. I have found none.
Problem is though, will the Senate's written intent hold up in court as a defense to the nasty mess of penal codes, sections and subsections that make up California gun laws. I think the answer is maybe, depending on the jury and the defense counsel, but that's a hell of a gamble for Mom and Pop companies or 03 holders to take.

While it sucks, I still can't blame companies who completely refuse to deal with California (SGAmmo being the most recent addition to that growing list). The DoJ is well funded and well staffed with prosecutors. What's worse is that they know they don't even need to win since the cost of litigation will make most companies either settle or go bankrupt, likely both. Either way, the DoJ still "wins".

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  #33  
Old 10-21-2018, 5:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
Problem is though, will the Senate's written intent hold up in court as a defense to the nasty mess of penal codes, sections and subsections that make up California gun laws. I think the answer is maybe, depending on the jury and the defense counsel, but that's a hell of a gamble for Mom and Pop companies or 03 holders to take.

While it sucks, I still can't blame companies who completely refuse to deal with California (SGAmmo being the most recent addition to that growing list). The DoJ is well funded and well staffed with prosecutors. What's worse is that they know they don't even need to win since the cost of litigation will make most companies either settle or go bankrupt, likely both. Either way, the DoJ still "wins".

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And it doesn't help when people post incorrect information on California's largest gun forum. It only creates FUD and scares more people into not dealing with CA.
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2018, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
And it doesn't help when people post incorrect information on California's largest gun forum. It only creates FUD and scares more people into not dealing with CA.
Nor does it help that you need a law degree to actually understand everything that's written. Laws are up to interpretation and are contradicted in other laws. Can you flawlessly navigate all the penal codes?

I'd be willing to bet that everyone on here has broken some facet of the penal code without even realizing it.

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  #35  
Old 10-22-2018, 5:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pterrell View Post
Nor does it help that you need a law degree to actually understand everything that's written. Laws are up to interpretation and are contradicted in other laws. Can you flawlessly navigate all the penal codes?

I'd be willing to bet that everyone on here has broken some facet of the penal code without even realizing it.

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100%


That is a deliberate part of the Rulers of this State, to make all firearms owners guilty of violating “some” firearms law. But quite understandable, the majority of voters in California hate guns and gun owners.
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  #36  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
100%


That is a deliberate part of the Rulers of this State, to make all firearms owners guilty of violating “some” firearms law. But quite understandable, the majority of voters in California hate guns and gun owners.
That is until we are invaded by China, then we'll be their best bud's.... :-)
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