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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #41  
Old 09-04-2014, 8:59 PM
Omegamann Omegamann is offline
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Default Spawling defeater?

I came across a really dense rubber pad used for weight lifting. It is used to protect the floor, I suppose. I expect that there is not much out there that is denser. I was thinking that it might perform quite well on the outside of AR500 plates if spawling was a concern.

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  #42  
Old 09-04-2014, 9:31 PM
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How are you going to attach it to the plates? MUST be a secure method to prevent fragments from simply sliding along steel under the pad, to the edge of the plate and then out into body parts.
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  #43  
Old 09-04-2014, 10:10 PM
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regardless, something that will take hits is better than a cool t- shirt. every option has strengths and weaknesses, just have to have to find what u think will work for you and go with it..
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  #44  
Old 09-05-2014, 5:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegamann View Post
I came across a really dense rubber pad used for weight lifting. It is used to protect the floor, I suppose. I expect that there is not much out there that is denser. I was thinking that it might perform quite well on the outside of AR500 plates if spawling was a concern.

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Each AR500 plate is @ 8 lbs each attaching dense rubber to each plate is easily going add 2-4 lbs minimum.
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  #45  
Old 09-05-2014, 6:59 AM
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Thanks for the info but I'm happy with my steel.
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  #46  
Old 09-05-2014, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sealocan View Post
I have asked this question before because someone here once said you could take used radial tires, that type with the steel threads in them, and cut them up and recycle them into a " low budget economy vest".
the curved the shape would be correct but I think you have to put several layers of tires thick (4 or more stacked.) to get any type of protection and even then probably only from handgun ammo.

has anyone done any testing on this or has the box of truth covered it?
the used tires are cheap but cutting them into shape and weaving them into armor like a Japanese samurais chest armor would be difficult.
Sounds like someone just wanted to see if anyone would dress up like the Michelin Man.
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  #47  
Old 09-05-2014, 7:46 PM
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*SIGH*

Not this S*** again.

http://drmorgear.wordpress.com/2014/...patriot-plate/

Unless you are facing a steel core round, the likelyhood of a richochet on a steel plate is low. It will most likely splatter and SPALL. You will have lots of little high velocity fragments of lead and copper.

Your present an absolute statement, without evidence or data.

To say you should not wear steel plates because you might catch a ricochet is similar to saying you should not wear seatbelts because you might get trapped in the wreck.

Yes, you may. But, since this is a rare event, the utility of the seatbelt (keeping you from getting pulped in a collision) serves its purpose.

Oh, and just to be fair, Ceramic plates also exhibit spallation, so I guess they are unsafe as well.

Enough of the Ceramic is better than Steel factionalism. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Assess your needs, and spend your money accordingly.

ETA: OP, please post your testing that you utilized to come to your conclusion.
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Last edited by d-r; 09-05-2014 at 8:17 PM..
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  #48  
Old 09-05-2014, 9:47 PM
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d-r if your not familiar with shooting steel plates and why they are angled here is what a manufacturer recommends. Read section IV page 9 where it talks about harder bullets that will ricochet off of steel targets. You may want to believe that steel is just as good as ceramic but it's just not. Ceramic is designed to break up the projectile unlike steel which does not. There is a reason why LEO'S and Military all over the world do not use steel as body armor because the properties of ceramic is superior as body armor. You can also talk to any compecompetive or firearms tactical trainer why they angle steel @ 90 degrees just in case of a ricochet. Also the link you posted adresses SPALLING not ricochets.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...74649129,d.cGU
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Last edited by Munny$hot; 09-05-2014 at 9:51 PM..
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  #49  
Old 09-05-2014, 10:09 PM
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Oh, I am a bit familiar with shooting steel rifle plates...

The manufacturers of steel targets makes these recommendations to prevent bullet fragments from coming back at the shooter. By angling the plate downward, this all goes into the dirt.

Apples to oranges comparison.

I am also passingly familiar with the kinetics of ceramic rifle plates...

They exhibit fragmentation, sometimes *MORE* than steel, due to the nature of the material.

You say "ceramic is designed to break up the projectile, unlike steel which does not." Pray tell, what is the defeat mechanism of steel, if not breaking up the projectile? In the nearly 500 test rounds I have personally fired at steel rifle plates, each and every one seemed to break up the projectile just fine.

Ceramic is "superior" in what way?

I speak to many tactical trainers. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Tactical trainers are not body armor designers or builders. I am.

And thank you for pointing out the nature of my link. Can you please post a link to the tests that you have done that specifically address RICOCHETS with personal armor plates (NOT steel targets)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munny$hot View Post
d-r if your not familiar with shooting steel plates and why they are angled here is what a manufacturer recommends. Read section IV page 9 where it talks about harder bullets that will ricochet off of steel targets. You may want to believe that steel is just as good as ceramic but it's just not. Ceramic is designed to break up the projectile unlike steel which does not. There is a reason why LEO'S and Military all over the world do not use steel as body armor because the properties of ceramic is superior as body armor. You can also talk to any compecompetive or firearms tactical trainer why they angle steel @ 90 degrees just in case of a ricochet. Also the link you posted adresses SPALLING not ricochets.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...74649129,d.cGU
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  #50  
Old 09-05-2014, 10:28 PM
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Just for the sake of a mental exercise, let us presume that ricochets are a threat. The boundary conditions for a ricochet (never mind one that causes harm) could be:

a)non-lead core projectile
b)low velocity leading to projectile retaining structural integrity
c)proper angle of obliquity, based on postural or positional orientation of wearer

Now, given those boundary conditions are met, you would have to further calculate the odds of the ricochet managing to inflict substantial injury. This would require the round to travel either straight up (neck/face/throat), straight down (femoral arteries/veins), or laterally when positional/postural orientation placed the upper appendages in the flight path (brachial arteries).

The odds, I would wager, are quite long. Non-zero? Yes. But having a plate in the way of the projectile provides MUCH better odds of not having one's gizzard perforated compared to not. If cost is a factor (and it IS a factor for many) in having armor, then the armor you can afford, and WEAR is infinitely better than the best ceramic plate that you are just three paychecks away from being able to afford.

Steel is inexpensive. It is durable (which means you can continue to use it even after it has soaked up some hits. Try that with ceramics). It is thin.

It is heavy. It exhibits front face splash. It does not (always) stop M193.

There we go. As you can see, there is no cut-and-dried answer as to the BEST armor. Like Ford vs. Chevy, Bud vs. Miller, or Blond vs. Brunette vs. Redhead (the answer to the last comparison of course being "yes"), the steel vs. ceramic debate could go on forever.

Summary: It is a good idea to have armor. There are many different choices, all with pros and cons. Learn those pros and cons. Make an informed decision based on your unique needs and circumstances. If you choose steel, great. If you like ceramic, also great.
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  #51  
Old 09-05-2014, 11:10 PM
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Just to clarify this- the slope has nothing to do with ricochets on tank armor- the angle effectively makes the plate thicker when engaged head on. Thicker = harder to punch through. A HEAT or APFSDS round does not care if your armor is angled and will not ricochet

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Originally Posted by sunborder View Post
As for ricochets, if ceramic armor is such magic, please explain to me why the ceramic armor on the front of an M1 tank is so heavily sloped...because it can cause deflection of incoming rounds (ricochets).
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  #52  
Old 09-06-2014, 8:26 AM
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For me armor is too heavy & restrictive. A plain old chest rig is how I roll.
I also don't plan on being in a situation where I need armor.
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  #53  
Old 09-06-2014, 8:39 AM
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Just to clarify this- the slope has nothing to do with ricochets on tank armor- the angle effectively makes the plate thicker when engaged head on. Thicker = harder to punch through. A HEAT or APFSDS round does not care if your armor is angled and will not ricochet

-Dave
With respect to HEAT rounds, this is horse****, since they don't even make direct contact with the armor except for the detonator. With a sufficient slope, the rounds may fail to detonate, or may detonate at an angle that wastes most of their energy.

As far as the APFSDS, this is also horse****. The soviets actually had a big problem with their early-mid generation APFSDS rounds ricocheting, especially the 3BVM-9 rounds and earlier types (used in the mid 70's to early 80's...you know, about the time the M1 was being developed and fielded...). There are still massive stockpiles of these lying around, btw.

There are more modern APFSDS rounds that are better at reducing ricochets, especially those using depleted uranium. Unless you plan on shooting AR500 plates with DU ammo....that argument is not germaine.

Sloped armor DOES sometimes increase penetration, but that has more to do with the materials that are being shot at it (see DU above).
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  #54  
Old 09-06-2014, 11:39 AM
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Actually, I beg to differ. Sloping MBT armor does actually increase the amount of thickness an incoming round "sees." Whether the projectile is a rod of WHA/DU, or a hypervelocity rod of molten tantalum/copper, the physics are similar. (And yes, the rod of molten hypervelocity liquid from a HEAT round *does* make contact...how would it penetrate otherwise?)

Side note, HEAT rounds do not "burn" through armor, it is essentially a superfast liquid (look up Munro effect). It is the velocity rather than the thermal characteristics that allow penetration. And while armor will behave differently when impacted by this type of projectile, angled plate still provides more material in the way. Want a simple demonstration? Draw two parallel lines 1" apart, with a perpendicular line bisecting them. Now, rotate the two lines to 45 degrees, and leave the bisecting line where it was. Notice that it is now a greater "thickness" than 1"? You just increased the "apparent" thickness of the plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunborder View Post
With respect to HEAT rounds, this is horse****, since they don't even make direct contact with the armor except for the detonator. With a sufficient slope, the rounds may fail to detonate, or may detonate at an angle that wastes most of their energy.

As far as the APFSDS, this is also horse****. The soviets actually had a big problem with their early-mid generation APFSDS rounds ricocheting, especially the 3BVM-9 rounds and earlier types (used in the mid 70's to early 80's...you know, about the time the M1 was being developed and fielded...). There are still massive stockpiles of these lying around, btw.

There are more modern APFSDS rounds that are better at reducing ricochets, especially those using depleted uranium. Unless you plan on shooting AR500 plates with DU ammo....that argument is not germaine.

Sloped armor DOES sometimes increase penetration, but that has more to do with the materials that are being shot at it (see DU above).
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Last edited by d-r; 09-06-2014 at 11:47 AM..
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  #55  
Old 09-06-2014, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Omegamann View Post
I came across a really dense rubber pad used for weight lifting. It is used to protect the floor, I suppose. I expect that there is not much out there that is denser. I was thinking that it might perform quite well on the outside of AR500 plates if spawling was a concern.

Comments?
SPALL will still be significant, and you just increased the thickness of the plate. You need an extremely high tenacity material, coupled with good design to stop front face splash. Hence why I designed my spall guards.
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  #56  
Old 09-06-2014, 1:32 PM
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Having tested two types of AR500 coated armor plates, I would have to say that the original poster has no idea what he's talking about.

For the record, I shot at two types of AR500 plates at 10 yards with XM193 equivalent, M855, 30-06, 7.5x55mm (GP11), 12ga slugs and a handful of handgun rounds. No ricochets, zero penetration. After a good bit, some of the coating wore off, so we did get some splash coming back at us, but that's common when bullets disintegrate on contact with a harder surface.

It is my belief that in a realistic scenario, AR500 armor is a good choice for the price-conscience buyer. Realistically you'll only be getting shot in the plate once or twice. I believe the first and second shots would be defeated by the plate and most if not all fragmentation/spalling contained. You will run into issues if the rounds hit towards the edge of the plate, but at that point, the armor is still doing it's job of protecting your vital organs.

I personally would not use the AR500 armor except in a last-resort type scenario purely based on the weight of each plate (almost 10lbs each).
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  #57  
Old 09-06-2014, 1:52 PM
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Quote:
Actually, I beg to differ. Sloping MBT armor does actually increase the amount of thickness an incoming round "sees." Whether the projectile is a rod of WHA/DU, or a hypervelocity rod of molten tantalum/copper, the physics are similar. (And yes, the rod of molten hypervelocity liquid from a HEAT round *does* make contact...how would it penetrate otherwise?)

Side note, HEAT rounds do not "burn" through armor, it is essentially a superfast liquid (look up Munro effect). It is the velocity rather than the thermal characteristics that allow penetration. And while armor will behave differently when impacted by this type of projectile, angled plate still provides more material in the way. Want a simple demonstration? Draw two parallel lines 1" apart, with a perpendicular line bisecting them. Now, rotate the two lines to 45 degrees, and leave the bisecting line where it was. Notice that it is now a greater "thickness" than 1"? You just increased the "apparent" thickness of the plate.
No, it's not that the "jet" doesn't have to go through more armor. It's that at certain impact angles, the round can fail to detonate at all (and actually bounce off) or will detonate with a lot of the energy wasted in the wrong direction. Heat rounds have a fairly high failure rate, especially when you start getting into some of the cage or secondary plate type armors (TUSK or PZ IV H, for example).

But unless you are shooting HEAT rounds out of an AR-15 at an AR500 plate, this is still not germane.

One of the reasons, probably 2nd or 3rd down the list, for modern sloped armors is to encourage ricochets. It's in the literature. Barring exotic projectiles (DU, Tandem-charge HEAT) that were fielded after the M1 was designed, the available weapons of the time were susceptible to ricochet. Period. My original point was that it was a DESIGN FEATURE.

In any event, ceramic body armor will reduce, BUT NOT ELIMINATE ricochets. Modern steel armor coatings, and expecially kevlar carriers, mitigate this problem. At the end of the day, the AR500 plate you HAVE is better than the ceramic plate that you DON'T HAVE. Anything else is fantasy. If you can afford multiple ceramic plates, fantastic. Enjoy spending your wealth. AR500 with a modern coating, is a reasonable alternative, that will reliably stop anything short of 30 cal AP, and M193 out of a long barrel at close range. It will protect major vital organs, and any splatter or ricochets (which is almost assured to be deflected downard) can be dealt with using an IFAK. Israeli bandages and QuikClot work a hell of a lot better on your legs than your heart and lungs.
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  #58  
Old 09-06-2014, 2:26 PM
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Ohhh **** it's going down now. I knew it wouldn't be too long before the steel guys showed up.
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  #59  
Old 09-07-2014, 10:58 AM
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Obviously some of you never play world of tanks were the damage system mirrors real life fairly good for a game.

Armour 2 inches thick when Angeles means the round needs to pass through more then 2 inches of steel . So it is an easy way to put more steel effectively on a tank yet have it still be lighter.
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Old 09-07-2014, 1:02 PM
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Gentlemembers, armor for vehicles is really off topic for this thread.
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Old 09-07-2014, 1:09 PM
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Gentlemembers, armor for vehicles is really off topic for this thread.
I was thinking the same.
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  #62  
Old 09-07-2014, 1:29 PM
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Plates vs nothing at all... I'd choose plates. Having said that I wouldnt buy any unless I lived in the middle east or ukraine. Too expensive and pretty heavy.
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  #63  
Old 09-07-2014, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegamann View Post
I came across a really dense rubber pad used for weight lifting. It is used to protect the floor, I suppose. I expect that there is not much out there that is denser. I was thinking that it might perform quite well on the outside of AR500 plates if spawling was a concern.

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A easier and more elegant solution would be to use this, Custom made spall guards
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