Safe to have photographer downrange?

[ramzar]

In your opinion, do you consider it safe to have the photographer downrange next to the targets that students are shooting at as portrayed in this video?

[ZombieTactics]

Depends on the photographer and the students, distance, any special protocols, etc., IMHO.

In the specific video posted, I know the photographer* personally. He's an experienced instructor, and I trust his judgement. I'm certain that others would not be as careful or show the attention to detail necessary, and as such create very unsafe conditions. Clearly it's one of those "don't try this at home kids" kind of things.

*

Jay Gibson was a United States Marine from 1985 to 1994. He was a Scout Sniper and served in the 1st Special Operation Training Group (SOTG). He took many military courses to fulfill his duties for those jobs and as a civilian he has trained with Pat Rogers, ESI, Trojan Security, BSR , Options for Personal Security, Gabe Suarez, Southnarc, Duane Dieter, Tactical Response and Crucible.

Aside from being an Instructor with Tactical Response Gibson is also a current civilian contractor who has worked in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as Executive Protection work in the United States for several years.

[tzotzo]

Stupid poll, designed to troll. Don't answer it.

[Hanzo]

ZombieTactics, you may trust the photographer but you can't trust the shooters, their guns and their ammos. So shouldn't the photographer. Thus, for you to trust the photographer's judgement is a poor judgement on your behest!

This is not recommended, this should not be allowed, this is not smart, this is unprofessional, this is totally unacceptable and this violates one of the basic firearm safeties: "Never allow the muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy." This training school needs to be shot down immediately for safety violations! Not to mention their poor techniques being taught- who does that James Bond high ready thing? Do they want to blow their own heads off, too?

[ramzar]

I would've preferred that this poll and associated comments/posts not name instructors, photographers nor training outfits. Just a poll on such a practice and what CalGunners thought about it with a straight up or down vote... That's all.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by ramzar

I would've preferred that this poll and associated comments/posts not name instructors, photographers nor training outfits. Just a poll on such a practice and what CalGunners thought about it with a straight up or down vote... That's all.

Then you should not post a video of a specific person and specific instance.

[The Virus]

I cant believe someone voted that it was safe....

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Hanzo

... Not to mention their poor techniques being taught- who does that James Bond high ready thing? ...

Many, many schools ... you should probably get a more comprehensive understanding of training methods in general before posting further on the subject. For the record, I'm not exactly fond of exactly the way this particular school teaches that ready position. There are variations which I find work better across a wider range of circumstances.

[ramzar]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

Then you should not post a video of a specific person and specific instance.

The video and audio themselves do not mention a particular person or outfit.

[sawchain]

Anyone who answers yes gets their HSC revoked.

[Hanzo]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

Many, many schools ... you should probably get a more comprehensive understanding of training methods in general before posting further on the subject.

Just cuz "Many, many schools" do it doesn't mean it's safe and cool looking.

[Matt P]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Depends on the photographer and the students, distance, any special protocols, etc., IMHO.

In the specific video posted, I know the photographer* personally. He's an experienced instructor, and I trust his judgement. I'm certain that others would not be as careful or show the attention to detail necessary, and as such create very unsafe conditions. Clearly it's one of those "don't try this at home kids" kind of things.

Zombie, if he asked you to step downrange and take his position would you do it? After all, you trust his judgement.
My issue is that this is a needless risk. What if one of the students accidently shot and killed that Instructor? How would the student have felt? So, you could say its the instructor only at risk, but that behavior creates tremendous risk to the student.
I would think even non shooters, non gun owners would see that video and feel that it seems extremely dangerous to do that.
Certainly we accept a certain level of risk when handling firearms, why make it more risky?
If doing that was to expose the student to what it would feel like to have to shoot close to an actual person, did ALL the students get to shoot with him next to their targets?
Too much risk for too little training value.
This video has been out there for some time. I am unsure that the training outfit responsible for this, should be measured on this one episode.

Just because we do not hear more of students shooting other students, or them selves even, should not mean we can raise the level of risk in training.
There should never, ever be fellow students further downrange while you or another are engaging your targets.
Just my opinion.

[Hanzo]

Why do you think we form a line on the range? Not for looks I hope...

[Cokebottle]

The question includes "as portrayed in the video"

We don't know the level of training of the students.
There are people that I would trust enough to take the place of the photographer.
There are very few people that I would trust enough to take the place of the photographer.

As Zombietactics said... it's the photographer's judgement call.
In general? I would say absolutely not, but in specific situations, yes, it MAY be safe.

[Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by Hanzo

ZombieTactics, you may trust the photographer but you can't trust the shooters, their guns and their ammos. So shouldn't the photographer. Thus, for you to trust the photographer's judgement is a poor judgement on your behest!

Nice first post.

If you have a beef with Zombietactics, please keep it out of Calguns.

[sawchain]

Originally Posted by Cokebottle

Nice first post.

If you have a beef with Zombietactics, please keep it out of Calguns.

He stated an opinion. He wasn't being insulting.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Hanzo

Just cuz "Many, many schools" do it doesn't mean it's safe and cool looking.

(Regarding "high ready" position) The opposite is also true of course. I'm not sure where "cool looking" came into this, as you are the first to mention it.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Matt P

Zombie, if he asked you to step downrange and take his position would you do it? After all, you trust his judgement. ...

I'd stand or sit downrange in a similar position if Jay were the shooter, as well as a few other people I know. I'd not do so for just anyone by a long stretch. I make no general recommendations for anyone else. As stated, I think "safety" in this sense is relative to the persons involved.

I also think people don't know how common this kind of thing is among action photographers. A lot of mythology exists about the capabilities of "remote camera systems". If you know what is possible, what equipment does it, and what to look for (as well as what things cost to rent), you can readily conclude this for yourself.

[IntoForever]

As a photographer, I would only trust 2 shooters and they both would tell me not a chance in hell if I tried to set that shoot up. The shooter may be on it however there is always a chance of gun or ammo malfunction. The photographer can line up the photo shot and either set the camera to automatic or remote trigger thus being safe with exception to an expensive camera.

"The name is Dumb, James Dumb"

[Gryff]

What a monumentally stupid thing to do.

[Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by sawchain

He stated an opinion. He wasn't being insulting.

I agree, but it doesn't quite pass the smell test with this being the first post and the way it was directed.
Previously banned user? Sockpuppet? Dunno... but that's not typical "new Calguns user" activity... finding a brand new thread posted in a specialty forum.... he's obviously someone familiar with Calguns and not just someone that stumbled onto it during a Google search.
ZT does have a big presence on YouTube and outside of Calguns, and there are a lot of people who do have a beef with him for whatever reason.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

I believe the situation is unsafe and unnecessary. There are less reckless ways of photographing a course of fire. Based on James Yeager's video response, I believe that it was done to add stress and perceived realism to a course of fire. I disagree with this method with hobby shooters as the students. I do not believe that hobby shooters need that experience and they are not qualified to shoot with live people in, "The hot seat." In my opinion, such stressors should be reserved for high level law enforcement and military training. I further believe that James Yeager's rationalization of the incident was unprofessional and exhibited flawed logic.

[Chief2Guns]

OMG

[r3dn3ck]

Originally Posted by tzotzo

Stupid poll, designed to troll. Don't answer it.

seems like this response was more closely intended for trolling don't ya think? hmmmm troll.

answered AND: it is never safe to have anyone in front of the firing line. It's always unsafe.

[VictorFranko]

So many variables that could have that situation end in complete disaster......wow.

[geeknow]

Ramzar,

No way in heck would I do that, permit another to do that while I was shooting, or participate on a range where that was going on. That is simply a needless tragedy waiting to happen. That violates at least 3 of the 4 rules that you and I know so well.

[joash]

There have got to be so many other ways around this scenario. With modern photography you can take pictures with remote controls. There is no reason to endanger a photographer.

Whether amateurs or even super fancy SF troops, there is just no reason for this kind of thing, not to mention the bad example set for students.

In one breath you are telling people the basic safety rules and in the next you are having them shoot with a human being next to the targets.

[taloft]

If I was the RSO on that range the answer would be, " No way, No how."

I don't care if Todd Jarrett and Rob Leatham are the shooters. This is a major violation of range safety rules.

What if the jacket on a round separated as it left the barrel and hit the photographer? Or, the round hits a hot spot in the berm causing a ricochet into the photographer's back? Those are just two examples of things that can happen that don't have anything to do with the skill set of the shooters.

With the current state of modern photographic equipment, there is no need to take this risk. Set it up using blue guns, then snap the live fire with a remote shutter release. It's not that hard to do safely.

[sawchain]

Risk to the photog: death.

Risk to the shooter: prison time for murder, negligent homicide, manslaughter, etc.

Reward: cool photos.

Is the risk worth the reward?

[Matt P]

Originally Posted by ZombieTactics

I'd stand or sit downrange in a similar position if Jay were the shooter, as well as a few other people I know. I'd not do so for just anyone by a long stretch. I make no general recommendations for anyone else. As stated, I think "safety" in this sense is relative to the persons involved.

I also think people don't know how common this kind of thing is among action photographers. A lot of mythology exists about the capabilities of "remote camera systems". If you know what is possible, what equipment does it, and what to look for (as well as what things cost to rent), you can readily conclude this for yourself.

So you then clearly agree that doing that is indeed dangerous, such that, you would only do it in very specific situations.
As for safety is relative, do you feel that it takes special training to do as the photographer does?
It seems you are defending the behavior when you also agree that it is so dangerous you would only do it with certain shooters.

Why defend what you know to be unsafe at all?

I know you have trained with that outfit, is that why you feel the need to defend it?
If it was done by someone else you had not trained with, would you still take the same position you have here?
I am directing my questions at you since you seem to go to great lengths to promote your opinion about ALL kinds of things. To such an extent you put out videos featuring, well, lets see....You!

You know you can enjoy your sense of what that outfit provides for you without compromising it by having to defend an old video clearly showing what just about everyone agrees is unsafe.
Again, I can not help but feel your defense comes because you have trained with them.

Anyways, its all good my friend.. Have a great Sunday.

[Coded-Dude]

That's a Darwin award waiting to happen. Get a tri-pod FFS!

[DVSmith]

Originally Posted by Hanzo

Why do you think we form a line on the range? Not for looks I hope...

My guess is that there are a number of shooters who don't know the answer to this question.

As for the intelligence of doing something like this, it goes without saying that far too many things could go wrong and injure or kill the photographer.

By the way, if that school has insurance, I would certainly yank it if I were their underwriter.

[slo5oh]

Pointless when you can buy a wireless remote for nearly every camera now. Hell I got mine for ~$3 shipped from a discount site out of china and it works perfect. With the technology available today I don't see the point in even taking a risk like this... other than simple population control of course.

[3GunFunShooter]

If I was taking that class and saw the instructor allow the photographer down range as in the video, I would demand a full refund on the spot and get the hell away from that range and the Tactical Ted instructor. If that class was renting the bay at the shooting club I belong to, I would make sure they were banned from ever using a range I am a paying member of.
+1 on the Darwin Award waiting to happen.

[only10x]

personally I wouldnt do it. The Op's video, even if the guy doesnt directly get shot It is still very possible to get a high speed ricochet kill you

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by Matt P

So you then clearly agree that doing that is indeed dangerous, such that, you would only do it in very specific situations.

No my statement would be that I wouldn't feel unsafe if I were confident about the abilities of the shooters, at reasonable distances considering likely cones of deviation. That's not some "very specific circumstance". Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Matt P

As for safety is relative, do you feel that it takes special training to do as the photographer does?

Sounds like loaded question to me, unless you care to tell me what you mean by "special training".

Originally Posted by Matt P

It seems you are defending the behavior when you also agree that it is so dangerous you would only do it with certain shooters.

I'd do it with people in whose ability I had reasonable confidence. Not quite the same as the "leading the witness" way you phrase the question.

Originally Posted by Matt P

Why defend what you know to be unsafe at all?

Why do your assume the answer in the way you ask the ask the question, unless you really are just making a veiled statement?

Originally Posted by Matt P

I know you have trained with that outfit, is that why you feel the need to defend it?

You assume that I feel a need to defend the school as a foregone conclusion, and then pretend to ask an honest question? I feel no need to defend TR or any other school I train with. I can discuss at length some things I think they do wrong, not necessarily having to do with safety. I take what I find useful, reject what I don't.

Originally Posted by Matt P

If it was done by someone else you had not trained with, would you still take the same position you have here?

I think that's already been answered.

Originally Posted by Matt P

I am directing my questions at you since you seem to go to great lengths to promote your opinion about ALL kinds of things. To such an extent you put out videos featuring, well, lets see....You!

And that's an important (albeit obvious) observation because ...? I think you have a website promoting yourself as a trainer, don't you? Is there some special meaning we should glean from either of these particulars? I'd note that on your website there are a few pictures where an instructor appears to be forward of the line, and one where a student (?) appears to flagging the thigh of the person in front of him with a pistol. You also feature a video where Todd Jarrett is shooting steel targets at an "unsafe distance", and where the photographer is clearly in line of the path of possible ricochets at fairly close distance. It should also be noted that the type of targets used are supposed to be angled downward (they aren't) and that they are supposed to have intervening barriers (they don't) when mounted parallel to each other. I'm not about to freak out ... your qualifications strongly indicate that you know what you are doing, and Todd's speak for themselves. (That's sincere, BTW ... no sarcasm implied)

[Matt P]

Zt do you remember the ADE thread?
ADE Thread with Multiple Posts by zombie

You seemed to have very little difficulty in making your opinion known on how unsafe you feel ADE is. You responded something like 15 times in that thread alone.
Maybe I am wrong, but no where did I see even in a ADE video the type of behavior you are certainly defending in this thread and another.

You seem to easily be able to point out in the above thread what you see as reckless, clownish and such. To such a degree you are very active in pointing your finger at all the issues as you see them.

Fabulous on the safety part. But I think the real question is "why do you spend your money with such a demonstrably sub-par company?" And let's be clear, this isn't some matter of some school being a little better or teaching some different favored method. These guys are clowns, and I think clowns would be insulted by the comparison.

Have you trained with ADE?

You have trained with the outfit above, and promoted them on this forum.

Zombie knows ADE is un-safe.

Zombie feels in certain situations having a photgrapher on the firing line while shooting at targets on either side is okay.

Edit, I just read this he added..

And that's an important (albeit obvious) observation because ...? I think you have a website promoting yourself as a trainer, don't you? Is there some special meaning we should glean from either of these particulars? I'd note that on your website there are a few pictures where an instructor appears to be forward of the line, and one where a student (?) appears to flagging the thigh of the person in front of him with a pistol. You also feature a video where Todd Jarrett is shooting steel targets at an "unsafe distance", and where the photographer is clearly in line of the path of possible ricochets at fairly close distance. It should also be noted that the type of targets used are supposed to be angled downward (they aren't) and that they are supposed to have intervening barriers (they don't) when mounted parallel to each other. I'm not about to freak out ... your qualifications strongly indicate that you know what you are doing, and Todd's speak for themselves. (That's sincere, BTW ... no sarcasm implied

)
I am okay with what I have on my website promoting what I feel is safe firearm handling...................................... Thank the great Lord above there are none, nor will ever be a video in one of my classes like the one in this thread.
Thanks zombie for that comparison. Oh, and the kind words about the level of my knowledge.. No worries on this thread for me.. Good times and I have enjoyed the interaction...

[Full Clip]

Safe for whom?
For the shooters, yes.
For the instructor, yes.
For the photographer? Eh, I see him bucking for a Darwin Award.

[rumblebee]

photo guy has an extremely large set of balls... but, wow....stupid. There's no "angle" argument either..he's in the middle of fire

[NSR500]

Not necessary. Just setup a tripod and remote trigger I you want a cool shot.