6.5 Creed - Gas or Bolt Action

[Tommy Gun]

Car paid off so freed up some cash and what better way to spend it then on a new rifle. Regardless of what I decide going to be a 24" or 26" barrel. Want to know what will be better for accuracy. Reading boards seems it's split. What are your opinions since you fine folks have a better grasp on the topic.

[Kwikvette]

Bolt gun.

/thread

[Blade Gunner]

Bolt gun is generally a more accurate and stable platform. Lower maintenance and less expensive to change worn out barrels.

[Reecek]

Tikka T3 TAC A1

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[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

Want to know what will be better for accuracy.
Reading boards seems it's split.

There is no split, unless you are talking about the split between the people who know what they are talking about and the people that don't.
Bolt guns are absolutely more precise than autoloaders.

[NorCalFocus]

Gas guns that get 1/2 MOA or better on average are not cheap. They do exist, but your spending upwards of 4-5k on one. You can build out a bolt gun for $2500 and have it drive tacks all day everyday.

If your goal is only to hit 2 MOA sized targets in short periods of time, like the gas gun division of PRS, than semi autos are great. But for just plain fun and accurate shooting, the bolt gun is the way to go.

[bsumoba]

A gas gun in 6.5 creedmoor also chews up cases to no end from what I have seen in a few different guns. Gas was adjusted as much as possible. No help.

Bolt gun, hands down, is the way to go. Once you go bolt action, you may not want to shoot a semi-auto for precision again

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by bsumoba

A gas gun in 6.5 creedmoor also chews up cases to no end from what I have seen in a few different guns. Gas was adjusted as much as possible. No help.

Bolt gun, hands down, is the way to go. Once you go bolt action, you may not want to shoot a semi-auto for precision again

And there lies the issue with continuing precision with chewed up brass. Makes it tough to make good loads one beat up brass.

My Ar308 is capable of .5 MOA five shot groups. But that took some serious dialing in. and a very expensive gas block and three batches of chewed up brass

[Tommy Gun]

Ya decided to go bolt. I'd like to build it but will prob buy off the shelf. I will be reloading for it. Now research begins on which rifle to get.

[rock3ralex]

Take a look at the Christensen Arms Modern Bolt Rifle. $2300 with a carbon fiber wrapped barrel.

[RHSth4]

Check out the Ruger Predator. You can get it in 6.5cm for under $500 out the door get an MDT chassis for it and build it however you want.

[Tommy Gun]

Have to say the newer RPR looks like what I'll be going for. Also uses magpul mags which is a good selling point for me also 24"Barrel. More research to do but the RPR has some good selling points.

Bought my Tikka T3 years ago without looking at aftermarket. GTFO WITH YOUR 60 DOLLAR 3 ROUND MAGS.

[justjosh]

I am no expert on this but I do have a few 6.5 long guns, the Ruger predator is an awesome, accurate hunting gun... its not the most enjoyable for long distance days and the Mag sucks... alot. I also own a RPR, I swapped barrels to the LRI custom caliber as well as the LRI cathedral port brake and added a Jard trigger. After buying the gun, barrel, brake and trigger I was into it $2504 before I even started working up a load or put a scope, Bi-Pod etc on it, looking back I probably would have went with a MPA BA which would have put me in about the same price range, having shot them quite a bit I can say yes there is a difference.

The RPR is awesome just as it comes, in no way am I dogging the rifle but i would recommend shooting everything you can find before you buy, if your local to the central valley you are welcome to fondle any of mine if you like.

Good luck with the purchase

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

Ya decided to go bolt. I'd like to build it but will prob buy off the shelf. I will be reloading for it. Now research begins on which rifle to get.

[kcstott]

I think my new F class open rifle will be a 30" barreled 6.5mm CM shooting the new 150 SMK. Buy that in a Borden action and put on a Shilen select match barrel. should have no issues with 2950 FPS and 1000 yards

[freonr22]

Originally Posted by kcstott

I think my new F class open rifle will be a 30" barreled 6.5mm CM shooting the new 150 SMK. Buy that in a Borden action and put on a Shilen select match barrel. should have no issues with 2950 FPS and 1000 yards

what is the out the door cost on that?

[SmokeTheClay]

Originally Posted by bsumoba

A gas gun in 6.5 creedmoor also chews up cases to no end from what I have seen in a few different guns. Gas was adjusted as much as possible. No help.

Bolt gun, hands down, is the way to go. Once you go bolt action, you may not want to shoot a semi-auto for precision again

Its a rare occasion the AR makes it out of the safe now...

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by kcstott

I think my new F class open rifle will be a 30" barreled 6.5mm CM shooting the new 150 SMK. Buy that in a Borden action and put on a Shilen select match barrel. should have no issues with 2950 FPS and 1000 yards

Why limit yourself so much on case capacity?
If you are going with a 30" barrel, go with a long action and do a 6.5-284 or even a straight 284.

[bsumoba]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Why limit yourself so much on case capacity?
If you are going with a 30" barrel, go with a long action and do a 6.5-284 or even a straight 284.

smaller caliber for less recoil if I have to guess.

maybe 6.5x284 is too much of a barrel burner

284 and its variants are the most popular caliber in Open. Hard to beat it, even for mid-range nowadays; unless it just simply does not blow, then something like a Dasher would be hard to beat.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Why limit yourself so much on case capacity?
If you are going with a 30" barrel, go with a long action and do a 6.5-284 or even a straight 284.

Recoil has nothing to do with it. I want the least wind drift possible. and I want an efficient cartridge that will also be relatively cost effective to load for. Cost of bullets and brass in full consideration I think the 6 or 6.5 cm is the best choice. I was looking at the 6x47, 6.5x47, 6XC, 260 rem, 284, 284 Shehane. Really in the 6-6.5 cartridges it comes down to case capacity and Peterson brass for me,

The 284 will not do what I want not even in a shehane. in 7mm I want to push the 197gr SMK at 2950 without being maxed out on pressure and without going with some off the wall SAUM, WSM. and i don't want a belted magnum. So that means the 28 Nosler. Thats down the road.
The 6.5 CM with the 150gr SMK being pushed at 2950 in a 30 barrel is realistic. i can use a slower powder and build that pressure over a longer period of time.

And Peterson make the brass. I'm done with lapua. I've invested a lot of money on brass and to have a company drop the ball on a new brass lot issue. Screw them i'm done. Scrap the whole lot and move on. I need brass that can last an entire season of competition and practice without neck splitting. I had a new batch of lapua not survive the second reloading, neck splits big time. so yeah I'm done with the beloved Lapua, I'll deal with American made brass where i can call the company and talk with someone that can answer a question instead of having to go through Berger.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by freonr22

what is the out the door cost on that?

I can't answer that as i do all my own gun work so cost to me is just parts cost. I spin the barrels on, I do the bedding, scope installs, trigger work,

But when all is said and done about $6K give or take.

Jim Borden wants about $1400 for an action. Shilen wants about $350 for a select match stainless turned blank. An f class stock will cost about $1000. Put a Night force benchrest 8-42 scope on it in good rings on a good base and add another $2500. add the Jewel trigger, Bedding, pelican case, Brass, bullets, reloading dies, yeah $6K easy.

[bsumoba]

Originally Posted by kcstott

Recoil has nothing to do with it. I want the least wind drift possible. and I want an efficient cartridge that will also be relatively cost effective to load for. Cost of bullets and brass in full consideration I think the 6 or 6.5 cm is the best choice. I was looking at the 6x47, 6.5x47, 6XC, 260 rem, 284, 284 Shehane. Really in the 6-6.5 cartridges it comes down to case capacity and Peterson brass for me,

I hear you on wind drift and efficiency. The 6.5 creedmoor is a great round and if Peterson is putting out great brass, even better. I have not tried them and have been using for a long time. In F-Class, we all went through the exercise of cartridge selection and cost and wind drift calculations.

Originally Posted by kcstott

The 284 will not do what I want not even in a shehane. in 7mm I want to push the 197gr SMK at 2950 without being maxed out on pressure and without going with some off the wall SAUM, WSM. and i don't want a belted magnum. So that means the 28 Nosler. Thats down the road.
The 6.5 CM with the 150gr SMK being pushed at 2950 in a 30 barrel is realistic. i can use a slower powder and build that pressure over a longer period of time.

You can always go 7 RSAUM.

Another consideration I would like you to consider is the choice of bullet and its ability to hold consistent waterline. Without the consistent waterline, wind drift advantage is a wash or might even be worse. In our experience, it appears that the longer bullets have better wind drift but quite possibly at the cost of bullet stability and consistency. My theory is that the longer bullets are just too long and are susceptible to external forces in flight that make it less consistent. In other words, while in flight, if that bullet starts to get wonky, those external forces have a greater effect on the bullet. I do not know very many people shooting the higher BC 7mm bullets or shooting the 6.5mm bullets (since BC numbers are getting closer or exceeding to that of older 7mm BCs like the 180 hybrid). I know of less people shooting the 6.5mm and if they are, it is usually for less recoil. Their theory is less recoil, better gun handling and thus better shots on target.

I shot the 195 EOL and felt like I had zero advantage. Waterline seemed to be okay, but I had to run them slower (because of the 284 Shehane capacity). Torque and recoil were also higher, resulting in the need for a bit more gun handling.

The growing consensus in the Open community is if you want more BC, move up to the 30 cal, like a 300 WSM. But, as you know, it comes at an expense with recoil, cost of components, barrel life, etc.

Originally Posted by kcstott

And Peterson make the brass. I'm done with lapua. I've invested a lot of money on brass and to have a company drop the ball on a new brass lot issue. Screw them i'm done. Scrap the whole lot and move on. I need brass that can last an entire season of competition and practice without neck splitting. I had a new batch of lapua not survive the second reloading, neck splits big time. so yeah I'm done with the beloved Lapua, I'll deal with American made brass where i can call the company and talk with someone that can answer a question instead of having to go through Berger.

It will be interesting to see how Capstone (the parent company of Lapua and now Berger) operates its business in the next couple years. I am all for US made brass and if someone makes a high quality 6.5x284 for me to neck up or a 284 case, I would give it a try for sure.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by bsumoba

I hear you on wind drift and efficiency. The 6.5 creedmoor is a great round and if Peterson is putting out great brass, even better. I have not tried them and have been using for a long time. In F-Class, we all went through the exercise of cartridge selection and cost and wind drift calculations.





You can always go 7 RSAUM.

Another consideration I would like you to consider is the choice of bullet and its ability to hold consistent waterline. Without the consistent waterline, wind drift advantage is a wash or might even be worse. In our experience, it appears that the longer bullets have better wind drift but quite possibly at the cost of bullet stability and consistency. My theory is that the longer bullets are just too long and are susceptible to external forces in flight that make it less consistent. In other words, while in flight, if that bullet starts to get wonky, those external forces have a greater effect on the bullet. I do not know very many people shooting the higher BC 7mm bullets or shooting the 6.5mm bullets (since BC numbers are getting closer or exceeding to that of older 7mm BCs like the 180 hybrid). I know of less people shooting the 6.5mm and if they are, it is usually for less recoil. Their theory is less recoil, better gun handling and thus better shots on target.

I shot the 195 EOL and felt like I had zero advantage. Waterline seemed to be okay, but I had to run them slower (because of the 284 Shehane capacity). Torque and recoil were also higher, resulting in the need for a bit more gun handling.

The growing consensus in the Open community is if you want more BC, move up to the 30 cal, like a 300 WSM. But, as you know, it comes at an expense with recoil, cost of components, barrel life, etc.



It will be interesting to see how Capstone (the parent company of Lapua and now Berger) operates its business in the next couple years. I am all for US made brass and if someone makes a high quality 6.5x284 for me to neck up or a 284 case, I would give it a try for sure.

All good things to consider, FYI the 28 Nosler was not going to be a F open rifle. it's being built to out class a .338 lapua in a tactical build. It can do it on paper, real world is another story. that and barrel life, cost of brass, it may be a complete waste of money. But i've wasted more on less. I've always been a fan of the 7mm in nearly any round, it's just a very balanced bullet between down range thump on target and how flat they can typically shoot. The 7mm RSAUM has about 25% less case capacity as the 28 Nosler. I don't think that would be able to get a 197 SMK to 2950fps even in a 30" barrel I was even looking at the 7mm STW I fell in love with that round when shooting time released it close to 30 years ago. problem was I didn't have the money and the bullets available were not up to what we have today.

[Tommy Gun]

The Tikka is starting to win me over. Finish and the action seem the best. Considering the 2 mags, mail in free mag and muzzle break included I'll spend the same pretty much as the other two budget rifles. And won't have to switch anything out really.

I own a Tikka T3 Ultralight in .308 already. Now just a matter of time for some funds.

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

The Tikka is starting to win me over. Finish and the action seem the best. Considering the 2 mags, mail in free mag and muzzle break included I'll spend the same pretty much as the other two budget rifles. And won't have to switch anything out really.

I own a Tikka T3 Ultralight in .308 already. Now just a matter of time for some funds.

Well you need to get that idea out of your head that you can buy a low cost all in one package. If you are any kind of target shooter, hunter or gun enthusiast the rifle is a stepping stone. You will spend more on it. and the first thing id change is the recoil lug. I've never been a fan of Sako or Tikka.

[LWP]

How about a 6.5 SAUM shooting the new high B.C. 150gr bullet?

[LWP]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

Car paid off so freed up some cash and what better way to spend it then on a new rifle. Regardless of what I decide going to be a 24" or 26" barrel. Want to know what will be better for accuracy. Reading boards seems it's split. What are your opinions since you fine folks have a better grasp on the topic.

OP, I'd stay with a bolt gun for over all accuracy and just plain easier to load for. 26" barrel would be my vote too. But your bottom line decision would be also what you are wanting to use this rifle for and how much money you have to spend?

[ZombieLivesMatter]

My experience is with 308 and I would say go with a bolt gun. I have a gas APF 308 Target that shot 1moa, in order for me to get sub-moa I had to upgrade with:
CMC 2lb/2lb trigger $200
Superlative adjustable gas block $100
JP Silent Captured Buffer $130
JP Lightweight BCG $210

It took more $$ to now shoot consistent sub-MOA, but for comparison my friend got a Ruger Precision Rifle in 308 and out of the box factory-stock already we we're shooting sub-MOA.
After I shoot this barrel out in the gas gun, I'll be upgrading to a quality 24" 6.5 creedmore barrel.

[NYT]

good article: http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/0...r-ar-showdown/

i chose the semi auto 6.5 over the bolt gun. i had GAP do a 6.5 barrel for an MWS and added a AR gold flat trigger.

[McGuiver]

I started as a kid with bolt guns, moved to semi autos, and now that I'm older, wanting to go back to bolt guns.

From my learning, dollar for dollar, bolt guns will give you more accuracy and consistency. I haven't seen any bench rest shooting sport guys using semi autos for those one hole groups. (It is the Internet age...they probably do exist).


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[Tommy Gun]

DROS'd The RPR in 6.5 Creed today. Ordered all the necessary equipment to take it to long distance.

Atlas Bipod
Accu Monopod
6.5 Creed Dies
Hornady Cartridge Gauge
Hornady Modified Case
Hornady Overall Length Case Gauge (for all calibers now and future)
Hornady Bullet Comparator
Hornady Digital Scale
Frankford Powder Trickler
LEE Delux Power Case Trimmer

Takin my reloading game to the next level. Reloaded strictly for plinking.

Scope will probably be the Vortex 5x25 but need to do some more research.

[NorCalFocus]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

DROS'd The RPR in 6.5 Creed today. Ordered all the necessary equipment to take it to long distance.

Atlas Bipod
Accu Monopod
6.5 Creed Dies
Hornady Cartridge Gauge
Hornady Modified Case
Hornady Overall Length Case Gauge (for all calibers now and future)
Hornady Bullet Comparator
Hornady Digital Scale
Frankford Powder Trickler
LEE Delux Power Case Trimmer

Takin my reloading game to the next level. Reloaded strictly for plinking.

Scope will probably be the Vortex 5x25 but need to do some more research.

Awesome stuff! A couple of recommendations though...
1. What dies did you order?

2. Return or cancel the Hornady Cartridge Gauge. With the case and bullet comparators you ordered you'll have all the info you need to make sure the cases will fit in your chamber. With precision rifle reloading, you only want to bump the shoulders back .001-.002" Thats it. The case gauge will likely be cut to SAMMI specs which means to make your brass fit in it, you'll be over sizing your brass.

3. The Burris XTR II is the best value out there right now in the $1000 range. If you shop smart they can be had for under $1000 to your door.

[Tommy Gun]

I ordered LEE dies. I'll take your advice and return the gauge. When I started reloading it was mainly for cheap spec ammo not precision, the like this rifle will be used for so after reading a lot and watching some you tube videos I guess I over thought the case prep. Can't wait for all this to come in and pick up the rifle in 10 days.

I'll check out the Burris Scope. Going to actually rely on the math and turrets for this, and not the BDC reticles I have in my other scopes. PA 1x6 ACSS on the M&P15 and a PA 4x14 ACSS on my M&P10.

[NorCalFocus]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

I ordered LEE dies. I'll take your advice and return the gauge. When I started reloading it was mainly for cheap spec ammo not precision, the like this rifle will be used for so after reading a lot and watching some you tube videos I guess I over thought the case prep. Can't wait for all this to come in and pick up the rifle in 10 days.

I'll check out the Burris Scope. Going to actually rely on the math and turrets for this, and not the BDC reticles I have in my other scopes. PA 1x6 ACSS on the M&P15 and a PA 4x14 ACSS on my M&P10.

Your going down a rabbit hole and the end is no where in sight lol.

Lee FL sizing die?

[Tommy Gun]

I got the LEE Ultimate 4 die set. Don't know how much or if I'll crimp but want the option.

[NorCalFocus]

No crimping on precision ammo.

When you get ready to load up some rounds, you can always PM me and I can help walk you through everything if you want.

[SmokeTheClay]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

I ordered LEE dies. I'll take your advice and return the gauge. When I started reloading it was mainly for cheap spec ammo not precision, the like this rifle will be used for so after reading a lot and watching some you tube videos I guess I over thought the case prep. Can't wait for all this to come in and pick up the rifle in 10 days.

I'll check out the Burris Scope. Going to actually rely on the math and turrets for this, and not the BDC reticles I have in my other scopes. PA 1x6 ACSS on the M&P15 and a PA 4x14 ACSS on my M&P10.

FFP scopes are pretty good for making zero changes and measuring in the wind without needing a calculator.

[Tommy Gun]

Are Mils and MOA a preference thing or is there advantages over the other??

[SmokeTheClay]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

Are Mils and MOA a preference thing or is there advantages over the other??

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/0...ve-comparison/

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Tommy Gun

DROS'd The RPR in 6.5 Creed today. Ordered all the necessary equipment to take it to long distance.

Atlas Bipod
Accu Monopod

Skip the monopod and get a rear bag instead.
Monopods are agonizingly slow to adjust and not as stable as a rear bag.

[Tommy Gun]

Another Update:

Ordered the Burris XTRII 5x25 34mm with the SCR MOA Reticle and 1.5" Burris XTR Rings.

After some reading I think those will be high enough to clear and not add too much MOA rise over the 20 MOA rail already on the rifle. Want to 100yd Zero and have enough adjustment to get me to 1k+ yds. Unless my thinking isn't sound with the above.