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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-23-2018, 11:59 AM
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Default IDEA for Mech Tech pistol carbine discussion....how to do it in California

Hey all,
I have been wrapping my head around how to legally own a Mech tech carbine and would like some feedback on my idea. I am thinking about starting with a polymer 80 Glock type lower, add a wing to get rid of the pistol grip, send it for engraving and have it engraved as a rifle, upon receiving engraved 80, finish the lower, then register said lower as a rifle. That would allow it to be California compliant and used with a Mech tech upper. I would like to hear any feedback on this idea. Thank you ahead of time!
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:06 PM
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Since it's being made as a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle, it will also need a fixed shoulder stock and no other restricted feature (no forward pistol grip, no flash suppressor, etc).

Also, once it's made as a rifle, it needs to remain as a rifle.
^Once it's a rifle... If you install a less than 16" barrel to it (such as Glock pistol barrel/slide), it then becomes a SBR. (Requires BATFE and CA DOJ approval to do legally.)
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by caseycase1 View Post
Hey all,

I have been wrapping my head around how to legally own a Mech tech carbine

First, you’ll need a lot of cardboard boxes and packing tape.
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Old 02-23-2018, 3:11 PM
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LOL, yes indeed, the Mech tech system comes with no flash hider and a fixed stock. I think this is doable!


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Old 02-23-2018, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Since it's being made as a featureless semi-auto centerfire rifle, it will also need a fixed shoulder stock and no other restricted feature (no forward pistol grip, no flash suppressor, etc).

Also, once it's made as a rifle, it needs to remain as a rifle.
^Once it's a rifle... If you install a less than 16" barrel to it (such as Glock pistol barrel/slide), it then becomes a SBR. (Requires BATFE and CA DOJ approval to do legally.)
"Once a rifle ..." may be still true in CA, I don't know for sure. But as of a few years back it's no longer federally true. ATF used to state that a handgun assembled as a legally configured rifle was made a rifle, from which there was no return. About 5 years back ATF wordsmiths reconsidered and determined a handgun assembled as a legally configured rifle wasn't made a rifle at all, but rather a handgun that happened to be temporarily reconfigured as a rifle.

There's an ATF letter floating around here and the net that speaks to the change. Brought about primarily as a result of AR 15 and T/C products ease of assembly.

I think the Mech Tech system without a shoulder stock, assembled as a handgun or AOW and with or without some type of "SigArm brace" has some promise. Somehow, I'm just not certain and it may involve trimming the barrel to under 16".

Last edited by dfletcher; 02-23-2018 at 9:00 PM..
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Old 02-23-2018, 9:09 PM
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The 80 glock frames won't fit a Roni, are you sure they'll fit a MechTech?
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:10 PM
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They do with slight modifications. I’ll let you all know how my build goes and the steps I take.


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Old 02-23-2018, 11:12 PM
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Default IDEA for Mech Tech pistol carbine discussion....how to do it in California

If I manufacture the 80 lower and have it labeled as a rifle, add a wing to prevent pistol grip, Assemble upper, I could register t as a rifle. It will never be a handgun

The trick will be to have a large enough plate to fit the necessary info to register


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Last edited by caseycase1; 02-23-2018 at 11:15 PM..
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Old 02-24-2018, 6:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
"Once a rifle ..." may be still true in CA, I don't know for sure. But as of a few years back it's no longer federally true. ATF used to state that a handgun assembled as a legally configured rifle was made a rifle, from which there was no return. About 5 years back ATF wordsmiths reconsidered and determined a handgun assembled as a legally configured rifle wasn't made a rifle at all, but rather a handgun that happened to be temporarily reconfigured as a rifle.

There's an ATF letter floating around here and the net that speaks to the change. Brought about primarily as a result of AR 15 and T/C products ease of assembly.

I think the Mech Tech system without a shoulder stock, assembled as a handgun or AOW and with or without some type of "SigArm brace" has some promise. Somehow, I'm just not certain and it may involve trimming the barrel to under 16".
The following is not applicable in CA due to CA having it's own SBR/SBS laws...

Under Federal laws/regulations...

Title 1 Handgun -> Title 1 Rifle = legal
^Title 1 Handgun -> Title 1 Rifle -> Title 1 Handgun = legal

Title 1 Rifle -> Title 1 Handgun = illegal. resulting firearm is considered a Ttile 2 SBR and requires BATFE approval to be legal.

Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Rifle = legal
^Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Rifle -> Title 1 Handgun = illegal. resulting firearm is considered a Ttile 2 SBR and requires BATFE approval to be legal.

Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Handgun = legal
^Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Handgun -> Title 1 Rifle = legal
^Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Handgun -> Title 1 Rifle -> Title 1 Handgun = legal


The OP is making a firearm from an "80% reciever" and using it to make a rifle.
So, he would be doing... Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Rifle.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-24-2018 at 6:04 AM..
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:01 AM
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If it holds that you don't have a firearm until you've assembled a complete unit able to function and fire... could you just serialize the upper first to federal standards, then modify your paperweight into a featureless grip and magazine well to complete your rifle?
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:06 AM
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Do you have to do the Polymer 80 or can you just start with a stock legal Glock, then convert it to a Rifle via MechTech and leave it in that configuration?
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:14 AM
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Default IDEA for Mech Tech pistol carbine discussion....how to do it in California

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Last edited by caseycase1; 02-28-2018 at 6:41 PM..
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:16 AM
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Default IDEA for Mech Tech pistol carbine discussion....how to do it in California

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/ca...build.1669089/

For those interested, this is how you modify poly80 lower for Mech Tech


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Old 02-24-2018, 11:43 AM
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The Mech Tech unit/upper is not a firearm. It is just a firearm part.

The firearm is the receiver/frame.
Under Federal and CA laws, the receiver/frame is the part that needs to have the serial number engraved on it.
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Old 02-24-2018, 1:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The Mech Tech unit/upper is not a firearm. It is just a firearm part.

The firearm is the receiver/frame.
Under Federal and CA laws, the receiver/frame is the part that needs to have the serial number engraved on it.


Thank you sir. I think, with your help, I have all my ducks in a row. I’ll let you know how the process turns out, from making to registering as a featureless rifle


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Old 02-24-2018, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The Mech Tech unit/upper is not a firearm. It is just a firearm part.

The firearm is the receiver/frame.
Under Federal and CA laws, the receiver/frame is the part that needs to have the serial number engraved on it.
But how is this determined? Not all firearms that have an upper and lower half serialize the fire control group. Rifles that come to mind: FN FAL, FN SCAR... no doubt there are others. HK pattern rifles such as the G3 or MP5?

If you had started with a pistol, removed the slide "upper", and went on the one way trip to change it into a rifle via the MechTech, I'd wholy agree. But if one starts with paperweights and parts and from the start creates a rifle?
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Old 02-25-2018, 6:15 AM
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But how is this determined? Not all firearms that have an upper and lower half serialize the fire control group. Rifles that come to mind: FN FAL, FN SCAR... no doubt there are others. HK pattern rifles such as the G3 or MP5?

If you had started with a pistol, removed the slide "upper", and went on the one way trip to change it into a rifle via the MechTech, I'd wholy agree. But if one starts with paperweights and parts and from the start creates a rifle?
Almost all European designed firearms use an "upper" receiver that is considered the firearm and a "lower" receiver that is considered a part (trigger group/grip assembly).

European firearm laws consider the part that contains the barrel to be the firearm.
^The combination of Euro and US laws, is why Euro made firearms tend to have serial numbers on the barrel, upper receiver, and lower receiver/frame.

Under US laws...
The Mech Tech unit is a part that goes on a firearm receiver/frame.
This is why the Mech Tech unit is not regulated and does not require a FFL to transfer it within the USA.

Exporting it to Euro requires US Gov approval and approval from the Gov of the country it's being imported to, because it's considered a firearm under European firearm laws.
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Old 02-25-2018, 7:44 AM
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Alright, I guess I am just dense today. Will someone please explain what the problem is if the 80% "pistol" is made and registered voluntarily as a rifle with the MechTech upper?

As long as it is never configured into a pistol it should not be a problem, as far as I can tell. As well as not having a pistol grip via a fin of some sort or a fixed magazine requiring disassembly for removal, or some other feature of all that Kommifornia assault weapons BS, right?

I am no lawyer or deal with laws on a daily basis, so that is why I ask.
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Old 02-25-2018, 7:56 AM
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Alright, I guess I am just dense today. Will someone please explain what the problem is if the 80% "pistol" is made and registered voluntarily as a rifle with the MechTech upper?

As long as it is never configured into a pistol it should not be a problem, as far as I can tell. As well as not having a pistol grip via a fin of some sort or a fixed magazine requiring disassembly for removal, or some other feature of all that Kommifornia assault weapons BS, right?

I am no lawyer or deal with laws on a daily basis, so that is why I ask.
As long as it's made as a semi-auto centerfire rifle that is featureless or operates using a fixed 10 round magazine, then it's a CA legal rifle (non-assault weapon).

What the problem is CA laws/regulations requires home built firearms with polymer receivers to have a 3.7 oz type 17-4 PH stainless steel insert embedded into the receiver and a serial number engraved onto that stainless steel insert.
^All polymer "80% receivers/frames" do not meet this requirement.
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Old 02-25-2018, 8:20 AM
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As long as it's made as a semi-auto centerfire rifle that is featureless or operates using a fixed 10 round magazine, then it's a CA legal rifle (non-assault weapon).

What the problem is CA laws/regulations requires home built firearms with polymer receivers to have a 3.7 oz type 17-4 PH stainless steel insert embedded into the receiver and a serial number engraved onto that stainless steel insert.
^All polymer "80% receivers/frames" do not meet this requirement.
Ok. Thanks for the insight. I never thought about the chunk of stainless. But is that deadline not here just yet? I was also thinking of the 1911 version so the stainless chunk was MIA in my mind.

cheers
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Old 02-25-2018, 1:08 PM
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Default IDEA for Mech Tech pistol carbine discussion....how to do it in California

I think the 80 poly pistol manufacturers have already addressed this. Not 100% sure, or you can just mill out the 1911 80 lower


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Old 02-25-2018, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The following is not applicable in CA due to CA having it's own SBR/SBS laws...

The OP is making a firearm from an "80% reciever" and using it to make a rifle.
So, he would be doing... Title 1 Other -> Title 1 Rifle.
Understood on CA. Regarding federal, isn't "other" - in this case an 80% completed receiver - the equivalent of a stripped & new AR lower, which can be assembled as a handgun or as a rifle? If the buyer first assembles the AR lower as a handgun, he can switch between the two. The age for purchasing an AR lower 4473'd as "other" is 21.

If the "Glock" type lower is assembled as a rifle only without an intermittent assembly as a handgun, that would trigger SBR, even federally - yes?

By way of (federal) example, silly though it may seem - purchase an 80% lower 4473'd as other, purchase a slide kit and assemble as a pistol, then add a Mech Tech upper = OK. Purchase an 80% lower 4473'd as other, purchase a Mech Tech upper and assemble as a rifle, then add a slide kit = SBR, either assembled or as "constructive possession". Yes, no?

Last edited by dfletcher; 02-25-2018 at 3:32 PM..
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Old 02-26-2018, 5:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Understood on CA. Regarding federal, isn't "other" - in this case an 80% completed receiver - the equivalent of a stripped & new AR lower, which can be assembled as a handgun or as a rifle? If the buyer first assembles the AR lower as a handgun, he can switch between the two. The age for purchasing an AR lower 4473'd as "other" is 21.

If the "Glock" type lower is assembled as a rifle only without an intermittent assembly as a handgun, that would trigger SBR, even federally - yes?

By way of (federal) example, silly though it may seem - purchase an 80% lower 4473'd as other, purchase a slide kit and assemble as a pistol, then add a Mech Tech upper = OK. Purchase an 80% lower 4473'd as other, purchase a Mech Tech upper and assemble as a rifle, then add a slide kit = SBR, either assembled or as "constructive possession". Yes, no?
Yes.

Scenario #1.
Federal laws (CA laws)...
Completed 80% becomes a Title 1 Other. Install pistol slide kit and it becomes a Title 1 Handgun (CA handgun). Remove pistol kit, install rifle kit, and it is temporarily a Title 1 Rifle (CA rifle). Remove rifle kit, reinstall pistol kit, and it returns to being a Title 1 Handgun (CA SBR).

Scenario #2.
Federal laws (CA laws)...
Completed 80% becomes Title 1 Other. Install rifle kit and it becomes a Title 1 Rifle (CA rifle). Remove rifle kit, install pistol kit, and it becomes a Title 2 SBR (CA SBR).
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Old 02-27-2018, 3:28 PM
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Quiet,
I’m having a hard time verifying what you are saying as the PC is so ambiguous. Have you been over this with a lawyer or are you involved in law? I really appreciate the feedback and it leads me to another question: What is the legality of using a registered factory handgun, say a Glock 20’s lower, with a Mech tech 10mm upper? Because the handgun is registered as a pistol and the slide has been installed, , could I legally convert back and forth to the Mechtech? Thank you ahead of time and thank you for helping me out through this process. I will pay it forward
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Old 02-27-2018, 3:38 PM
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Never mind about my inquiry. So if it begins an “other”, it is legal to go back and forth if you install a slide before converting to carbine. But if it is a designated “pistol” and is converted to carbine, it can never go back to “pistol”, correct? LOL


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Old 02-28-2018, 6:43 PM
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Ive decided on buying a cheap Glock as a dedicated lower and putting a kydex wrap on it. I’m keeping it simple




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