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  #1  
Old 02-22-2018, 4:17 PM
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Default New, non-REAL ID's and AB60 ID's - No Differences

My fellow folks of the FFL world. Please see the linked thread and ongoing discussion re: lack of clear distinction between the new, non-REAL ID and the AB60 ID. This could pose a problem for transfers.

Perhaps, you folks can chime in with your experiences.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1425087


https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/realid

Quote:
The California DMV began offering a federal compliant REAL ID driver license or ID card as an option to customers on January 22, 2018.


In summary, I've vetted via one of my employee's recent DL renewal where she did not opt for the REAL ID that her new DL contains the same verbiage as the AB 60 DL with:

Front, upper right
"Federal Limits Apply"

and

Back, bottom right
"This card is not acceptable for official federal purposes.
This license is issued only as a license to drive a motor
vehicle. It does not establish eligibility for employment,
voter registration, or public benefits."


Based on the open letter from ATF, we may not transfer firearms and ammunition to persons with this verbiage on their ID/DL.

ATF AB60


We've acknowledged that the below verbiage already exists on previous DL's

"This license is issued only as a license to drive a motor
vehicle. It does not establish eligibility for employment,
voter registration, or public benefits."


However, the addition of the "This card is not acceptable for official federal purposes." text was, according to the NRA/CRPA's response following ATF's communication with the DMV, the distinguishing difference between the new, non-REAL ID and the AB60 ID.


CRPA/NRA email to jtake:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtake View Post
So I just received an email from CRPA indicating that they have reached out to ATF because of the issues we have identified here.

According to the CRPA email, there is a difference between AB 60 licenses and the "new normal" non-Real ID licenses that have the Federal Limits Apply language.
NRA and CRPA attorneys immediately reached out to ATF for clarification. ATF responded, following confirmation from the DMV, that despite non-REAL IDs and AB 60 IDs both having the same “FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY” language on the front, AB 60 IDs will have additional language on the back which states “This card is not acceptable for official federal purposes.” IDs issued to citizens and lawful residents will not have this language.
I thought someone looked at a recent non-AB 60 license and said it had the same language that AB 60 licenses have on the back. Can someone else check their license and see if it has or omits the language per the CRPA email?

That is not the case as validated by my employee's DL. I stated:

"Perhaps, folks with this ID will need to bring a Passport and Vehicle Registration to satisfy ATF ID and residency requirements. CA DOJ allegedly stated that they will accept this new card for DES, so it will probably serve to satisfy the 2nd proof of residence for pistols as well as for the DROS entry."


We are currently waiting on other members who have mistakenly gotten the new, non-REAL ID to validate if theirs has the same verbiage.

Any experiences, please share.

Last edited by code_blue; 02-23-2018 at 5:08 PM..
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Old 02-22-2018, 4:47 PM
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Great post. I DROSED a non-REAL ID from one of my long time customers. I will check the back when he comes in to pick up.
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  #3  
Old 02-22-2018, 4:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Great post. I DROSED a non-REAL ID from one of my long time customers. I will check the back when he comes in to pick up.

This was a recent DL obtained after the January 22, 2018 start date?

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/realid

Quote:
The California DMV began offering a federal compliant REAL ID driver license or ID card as an option to customers on January 22, 2018.

Check the front too. The easiest determining factor is the "Federal Limits Apply" on the front.




Last edited by code_blue; 02-22-2018 at 4:53 PM..
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Old 02-22-2018, 6:58 PM
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From the other thread. OP of that thread confirmed the same as my employee's ID. This will be an issue because we cannot distinguish between an AB60 and normal ID. The transferee will need to bring other forms of authorized ID and address for ATF standards.

I am willing to bet that CA did this on purpose.

ATF AB60

Post #80

Quote:
Originally Posted by auser6664 View Post
I got my new RealID today.

Here are the differences:

Attachment 684353

Attachment 684354

Last edited by code_blue; 02-22-2018 at 7:06 PM..
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:52 AM
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Dang it. I have a customer here today wanting to use one he just got in the mail. I have no idea how to handle this.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:04 AM
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So is there now no difference in AB60 license and the "Mail ID" posted above? Or if the AB60 one a third version of license?
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:07 AM
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I just made a DMV appointment for next month regardless.
I don't want "federal limit" anything on an ID that is a gating factor on so many things.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
So is there now no difference in AB60 license and the "Mail ID" posted above? Or if the AB60 one a third version of license?
The one I just had in my hand that was for a US citizen the Federal Limits Apply is in black. The ones I've seen for AB60 the Federal Limits Apply is in red.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadside View Post
So is there now no difference in AB60 license and the "Mail ID" posted above? Or if the AB60 one a third version of license?

I do not see any indication that there is a separate version for the AB60. Technically, those who did not opt into the REAL ID were unable to provide proof of "right to be here" during renewal, so I can understand why the DMV opted to do this.

Now, whether or not this was intended to screw over firearms owners, I can speculate.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
The one I just had in my hand that was for a US citizen the Federal Limits Apply is in black. The ones I've seen for AB60 the Federal Limits Apply is in red.

That's interesting. I have not seen an actual AB60 DL in person. Still the color was not a determining factor in the ATF open letter, only the text.

Condor, I think you'll have to have your transferee bring in the other acceptable ID and address verifications accepted by ATF i.e. passport and vehicle reg. The new CA DL should be OK to be used as 2nd proof and DROS entry.

Then again, we boil down to the Open letter stating that we "may not transfer" to anyone with this verbiage on the ID/DL.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:01 PM
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I talked to an inspector with the CA DOJ and was told that there are two types of CA ID/DLs, which is the whether it has the AB60 wording on it or not. If it has the AB60 wording, then it is not considered acceptable for use in buying a firearm as the previous CA DOJ bulletin stated. I was told that there is no acceptable additional documentation which can be provided to allow the DROS to be submitted.

I was told that if they see a copy of the DL with that wording on it, they will write you up for it. A copy is only required when the magstripe does not read in.

This is just hearsay and take it for what you will, but accept such a DL at your own risk. I can only hope that the lawyers are attempting to take quick action on this matter.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:06 PM
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Thanks, Kem. Looks like the safest bet is to refer people back to the DMV to get a REAL ID. No different then having them go in for an H6 (pre-revised 4473) when they didn't have other government issued docs for address correction.

Sucks, but that's that they'll have to do.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
That's interesting. I have not seen an actual AB60 DL in person.
We've been seeing them for a long time since they came out.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
We've been seeing them for a long time since they came out.
Yes, but you do other things. Have you seen anyone trying to use one for a firearm?
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:50 PM
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OK, tried putting the question into the DROS issue system and got a response to call the customer service (they wont put anything in writing I guess). I called and their response was the only advice they could give me was to refer to the notice about AB60 and follow the info from that.

So.....yeah, the ID is no good.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:52 PM
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I smell a conspiracy at the bureaucratic level.
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:06 PM
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Someone just emailed me thsi
https://mailchi.mp/b4b87066ef38/ca-i...s?e=0a0089805c
Not sure if the link will work but it was a CRPA bulleton
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCArmory View Post
Someone just emailed me thsi
https://mailchi.mp/b4b87066ef38/ca-i...s?e=0a0089805c
Not sure if the link will work but it was a CRPA bulleton

Quote:
But California firearm dealers must ensure that the provided ID is not an AB 60 license by looking on the back of the license to confirm the AB 60 language is not there.
We've established that the back of the new, non-REAL ID's contain the AB60 verbiage. The CRPA post is incorrect and assumes that the DMV omitted the AB60 language from the back of the cards.
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yes, but you do other things. Have you seen anyone trying to use one for a firearm?
Yep, last week, had a guy who genuinely thought he was legal to be here in the US because they gave him a driver license. No BS. He was totally illegally here but didn't understand that. He thought that because CA gave him a driver license that made him a US citizen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
I called and their response was the only advice they could give me was to refer to the notice about AB60 and follow the info from that.
Yea, we already ripped that one to shreds. That bulletin didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:31 PM
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Ace, were you required to report the attempt to the ATF or any other agency?
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Old 02-23-2018, 1:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
Ace, were you required to report the attempt to the ATF or any other agency?
In this case what law did he break? He didn't pay or lie on the 4473. He was looking, when we told him what he needed. ID FSC AND POR, we got to the ID part and that was the end of the line.

Yes, straw purchases are reported to ATF, yes we have called our Field rep for DOJ and ATF agents for stuff that's unlawful. They didn't get their guns and their info was reported (in email) to the proper authorities.
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Old 02-23-2018, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Yep, last week, had a guy who genuinely thought he was legal to be here in the US because they gave him a driver license. No BS. He was totally illegally here but didn't understand that. He thought that because CA gave him a driver license that made him a US citizen.
...
Any bet he also thought that he could vote?
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Old 02-23-2018, 3:14 PM
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If POTUS pulls ICE out of CA (likes he's threatening to) bet you'll see a lot more of those folks...
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Old 02-23-2018, 3:17 PM
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Another topic for another discussion, but CA Peace Officers are barred from assisting ICE; however, I don't recall any legislation barring FFL's from alerting ICE under these circumstances.

We are bound by both CA and Federal laws as FFL's and employees of FFL's, and in our specific field, Federal regulations tend to override CA regulations when it comes to incidents revolving firearms and ammunition transfers.
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Old 02-23-2018, 4:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Any bet he also thought that he could vote?
Any bet if he's actually voted?
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Old 02-23-2018, 6:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick View Post
Any bet if he's actually voted?
Well, if I had to bet, I would bet that he voted. Care to take the other side?
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:03 PM
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Better question is who do we contact about this issue and have them file a lawsuit about it?
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:32 PM
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CRPA has been made aware of this situation by one of the boardmembers in the other thread. I've also emailed CRPA advising them that their bulletin was incorrect and linked them to this thread. Pending responses.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:55 PM
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Thanks. Update as you know more. Much appreciated.
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:28 AM
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Had another one in today.

This sucks
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Old 02-25-2018, 5:44 PM
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I just don't understand how it's possible that this is happening. This pisses me off to no end. Basically CA is lumping illegals in with US citizens and the citizens are being F'd over. This is BS.
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Old 02-25-2018, 7:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
I just don't understand how it's possible that this is happening. This pisses me off to no end. Basically CA is lumping illegals in with US citizens and the citizens are being F'd over. This is BS.
Look at the idiots getting elected by the idiot voters, then we get idiot judges who don't have a clue.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:05 PM
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Still no response from CRPA and the link to the bulletin is still active. I expect that they were on downtime over the weekend, so maybe we'll get a response over the week.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:33 AM
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LMAO....so I had my staff look at their license. One of my staff has a federal limits apply as he just got his renewal in the mail. Even better I put a Facebook post up to warn folks about this and my Chief of police answered. Yeah..he can't buy a gun either. What a mess. DMV isn't saying anything to people who go in to get a renewal that the license they get will have these limits. I can understand the mail in ones, but my counter guy went into DMV to get his and nothing was said to him.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:38 AM
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As a FFL, you can't personally buy a firearm yourself if you have such a license.

It seems intentional.
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Old 02-26-2018, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
As a FFL, you can't personally buy a firearm yourself if you have such a license.

It seems intentional.
I have to renew my DL before May. After trying to hat an appointment at DMV for my staff I now know give yourself a good month lead time. I have little doubt this was done as a money making adventure for California. Everyone will be having to pay $28 dollars again to get the correct license. I can't think of a single reason California would be giving out these limited licenses to totally legal US citizens.
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Old 02-26-2018, 3:35 PM
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CRPA has sent out new email
Quote:
Follow Up Special Alert:
Firearm Purchases and Identification Issued by CA DMV


In our last alert discussing California driver licenses and the Real ID Act, we mentioned that the California Department of Motor Vehicles (“DMV”) had told Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) ATF that the non-REAL ID licenses issued to lawful California residents would be different than those issued to undocumented individuals.

It has come to our attention that DMV is issuing identification to lawful California residents that are identical to those issued to individuals who are unable to provide proof of their lawful presence in the United States. In other words, DMV provided ATF with bad information.

This means there is no distinction between an AB 60 license and a non-REAL ID, despite what the ATF previously attested to in communications with NRA and CRPA attorneys. As a result, California licensed firearm dealers are currently prohibited from accepting non-REAL IDs for the purposes of firearm transfers due to ATF’s current policy.

NRA and CRPA attorneys have reached out to ATF and DMV for further clarification but have yet to receive a response. Make sure you are subscribed to NRA and CRPA email alerts to be notified of any updates on this issue as it develops.

In addition, NRA and CRPA attorneys have received word from at least one firearms dealer that the California Department of Justice (“CA DOJ”) has taken the position that any license with the words “FEDERAL LIMTS APPLY” is not acceptable for the purposes of purchasing or transferring firearms, regardless of any additional language on the back of the license. This appears to be an unlawful overreach by CA DOJ because the question of lawful presence in the United States as it relates to firearm purchases falls directly under ATF’s control.
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Old 02-26-2018, 3:54 PM
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CRPA has sent out new email
I can give the name of the CA DOJ person who told me it was unacceptable to transfer a firearm with such an ID and that they would write up any dealer who they find they did so.
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Old 02-26-2018, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
I can't think of a single reason California would be giving out these limited licenses to totally legal US citizens.
I can, to prevent them from being able to buy a firearm. They can't ban firearms, but if they can make it impossible to do the transfer they will be just as happy.
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Old 02-26-2018, 4:18 PM
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Default Latest from CRPA Re: Real ID and Cal DLs

Follow Up Special Alert:
Firearm Purchases and Identification Issued by CA DMV


In our last alert discussing California driver licenses and the Real ID Act, we mentioned that the California Department of Motor Vehicles (“DMV”) had told Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) ATF that the non-REAL ID licenses issued to lawful California residents would be different than those issued to undocumented individuals.

It has come to our attention that DMV is issuing identification to lawful California residents that are identical to those issued to individuals who are unable to provide proof of their lawful presence in the United States. In other words, DMV provided ATF with bad information.

This means there is no distinction between an AB 60 license and a non-REAL ID, despite what the ATF previously attested to in communications with NRA and CRPA attorneys. As a result, California licensed firearm dealers are currently prohibited from accepting non-REAL IDs for the purposes of firearm transfers due to ATF’s current policy.

NRA and CRPA attorneys have reached out to ATF and DMV for further clarification but have yet to receive a response. Make sure you are subscribed to NRA and CRPA email alerts to be notified of any updates on this issue as it develops.

In addition, NRA and CRPA attorneys have received word from at least one firearms dealer that the California Department of Justice (“CA DOJ”) has taken the position that any license with the words “FEDERAL LIMTS APPLY” is not acceptable for the purposes of purchasing or transferring firearms, regardless of any additional language on the back of the license. This appears to be an unlawful overreach by CA DOJ because the question of lawful presence in the United States as it relates to firearm purchases falls directly under ATF’s control.

Under California law, one only needs to provide “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age” when attempting to acquire a firearm from a California licensed dealer. “Clear evidence” is defined as a valid California Driver’s License or Identification Card. Because both AB 60 licenses and non-REAL IDs are considered valid California identification, regardless if they satisfy federal requirements or not, both satisfy California’s requirement of “clear evidence of the person’s identity and age.”

Following additional clarification from ATF and DMV, NRA and CRPA attorneys will address CA DOJ’s position should they still insist that such licenses are restricted. Until then, we recommend our members hold off on renewing their California identification if possible or apply for and obtain a REAL ID.
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