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Calgunners in Service This forum is a place for our active duty and deployed members to share, request and have a bit of home where ever they are.

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  #121  
Old 11-11-2009, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tacticalcity View Post
No one in Delta is there because the military was their only option in life. Every one of them had the brains to do just about anything they wanted. These are people who would have risen to the top in whatever they chose to do in life, not just this. They are heavily recruited by other agencies and private industry and not just as shooters. These guys, for the most part, choose to stay.

So to say they would be doing something "better" than Delta is nuts. There is nothing better than Delta. Just ask them...oh wait...we don't know who they are. :-)

My argument is based completely on what I've read. If I met a Delta guy while I was in, I didn't know it. Though it was possible. We deployed with Seals, Special Forces, Rangers, Forced Recon, Various USAF Spec Ops Units, Department of Energy Guys, State Department Guys, and so on all in a support role. Basically waved good buy and said "have fun we'll be here when you get back" - not really but you get the idea. Me not stud - them all super studs. So it's possible somebody in there was Delta. They had no need to tell us who they were or what they were doing there, and we didn't ask. After a while, it became clear some of those training missions were not entirely just about training...but we really didn't care. We had a job. We did it.

Of the Spec Ops guys I met I based my opinion of them by how the treated those who worked for them. I wasn't able to see them in action, but I assume they are all pretty much studs on an equal level...just each emphasizing different areas more than others.

The Marines were cool to everyone, which surprised me. They are supposed to have an attitude, but they didn't. They were eager to lend a hand and keep themselves busy, so we put them to work. They constantly wanted to stay busy...which was great because we deployed seriously undermanned and every body counts.

The various Army units were cool, aside from their Command Sergeant Majors who were complete jerks. They seemed convinced that even though we're in a different service, and on our own Temporary Air Base that we setup we needed to conform to their regulations...regulations our branch of the service did not have. Eventually we started looking for differences in our regs just so we could get away with ticking them off. They fell for it every time, their own men really enjoyed that. After a while I started think they fell for it on purpose, just to give their troops a show to watch.

The Seals simply ignored us, aside from their CO who only spoke to us when he needed something. They'd see you could use a hand with something, and they'd sit there and stare at you instead of volunteering to help. If you asked they would ignore you. They'd rather delay their time table then do a job that was beneath them, while the Marines felt no job was beneath them. Most of the time the Seals simply refused to acknowledge anybody outside their unit existed or mattered...unless they needed something. They acted like a bunch of 5 year olds. Seals or not, I called 'em on it with some very choice words...expected to get knocked on my rear and not caring...they just kept on walkin' like they never heard me...good thing too cus I didn't stand a chance. One Seal spent an entire 3 week deployment reading a paperback with Fabio on the cover. He was supposed to be training with the other units, or so those other units told us, he just read that damn book. Everyone called him Fabio from that point on. He ignored them. Needless to say, I was not impressed...and neither was anyone else. I am sure the Seals thought it was pretty funny. Anything to stay entertained. A couple guys I grew up with were Seals, brothers two years apart in age. Kinda jerks as kids, by my jerks so I looked passed it. Now they are Private Security Contractors. They thought the Fabio story was funny as can be, and seemed to think they even knew who that guy was. The ignoring everyone and refusing to lend a hand when it was needed part ticked them off. Said they would never do such a thing, and would much rather stay busy than sit around in the shade.

If my rear was on the line…any of them would do! If I’m gonna be stuck in the desert with nothing to do and no one to fight and no one else to talk to…I’ll take the Marines. Those guys were a riot!
i guess they didnt teach you reading comprehension.
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  #122  
Old 11-11-2009, 5:00 PM
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The posts by cavtrooper and tacticalcity are filled with so much bias and misinformation they aren't even worth responding to, they both are clearly blinded by their pride in their respective service. Nothing wrong with pride, but damn you guys really need to back off on the kool aid
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  #123  
Old 11-11-2009, 5:20 PM
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The posts by cavtrooper and tacticalcity are filled with so much bias and misinformation they aren't even worth responding to...
Yet you felt the need to respond!

Seriously though, please point out what "misinformation" I have posted, If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected.

Thank you.
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  #124  
Old 11-11-2009, 5:45 PM
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I was in a unit with a 1st sgt who got plucked for delta. He once gave a class for 5 hours on bullet flight and trajectory alone. Even the most hardcore guys got sick of it. I think what another poster was trying to say is that these guys in delta have no life outside the military. Becuase even when they arent delta they are planning 5 hour lectures when they get off work
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  #125  
Old 11-11-2009, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
Yet you felt the need to respond!

Seriously though, please point out what "misinformation" I have posted, If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected.

Thank you.
No, actually I did not respond to your posts. I simply suggested that those thinking of enlisting should do their own research rather than believe anything you have said while choosing which service fits them best.

If I would have responded, it would have looked like this:

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
US Army has the highest attrition rate in basic training, followed by the Navy, the Marine Corps and then the Air force.

So I guess if youre worried about basic training being too tough, you might wanna try the Marine Corps or the Air Force, seems that their basic training is the easiest to pass!
#1 - The Marine Corps does not have "basic training," we have "boot camp"

#2 - Simply comparing attriction rates is unfair, the same exact people do not join each service. There could be several reasons for the army having the highest attrition. One could argue that Marine Corps recruits are smarter and stronger, or that the Marine recruiters prepare their recruits better.

#3 - Marine Corps boot camp has higher physical fitness standards, and is longer than army basic training

#4 - You can go home for 10 days if you are at army basic training, not in the Marine Corps

#5 - Cell phone use during army boot camp is allowed on some weekends, not in the Marine Corps

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyj...ccellphone.htm

#6 - Marines joining the army are exempt from army basic training, army soldiers are not exempt from Marine Corps boot camp

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
In the Marine Corps youve got MCRD and Perris Island.
#1 - MCRD stands for Marine Corps Recruit Depot

#2 - There are 2 MCRD, 1 in San Deigo, 1 on "Perris Island"

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
I think thats another issue that effects the "image" of the Army. We have the National Guard wearing the same uniforms, patches and nametapes as Regular Army Soldiers. One weekend a month, two weeks a year Soldiers who are not always held to the same standard, who dont always have the same training, "representing" the Army. Thats something the Marine Corps doesnt have to deal with.
#1 - The Marine Corps, along with ALL other services have reserve forces. Marine Corps reservists do wear the same uniform (we don't have patches). I realize the National Guard is not the same as the reserves, however, would you say the army reserve differs in the way they represent the army?

#2 - The Marine Corps does "deal" with this, except that it is a benefit to the Marine Corps to have Marines representing us out in society, where there are no Marine Corps bases.

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
What is the average "boots on the ground" deployment time for the Marine Corps? As I understand it, its 6 to 9 months. Soldiers deploy for 1e to 15 months at a time. In an average 4 year enlistment its common for a Soldier to spend 24+ months in harms way. Even if a Marine deploys more times, they spend less time with "boots on the ground".
I Personally know an army MP, who has been in for 6+ years, and has only once deployed to Iraq. I personally know another army solder, in the infantry for 4 years, deployed once for 10 months to Iraq. I personally know another army soldier, in the infantry for 5 years, deployed twice.

On the other hand, I know multiple Marines who have deployed 3 or 4 times (6 to 7 month deployments) in 4 or 5 years, that's far more "time with boots on the ground"

Do these examples I gave apply to every army soldier or Marine? No, but your belief that soldiers spend "more time with boots on the ground," is false.

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
We all have our up and down side, we all have our good and bad people, all have our weak and strong points, we are two different branches with two different missions.
The first part is true, but different missions? The Marine Corps and army certainly use different methods, but how would you distinguish the army's present mission in afghanistan from the Marine Corps' present mission in Afghanistan?

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
If you recall a few years ago, the Marine Corps leadership was complaining about Iraq
Who? Please give me an example

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
they weren't trained and equipped for SASO ops, etc, etc
Yes, the Marine Corps is often not equipped as well as the army, we have always dealt with comparitively less funding for training and equipment than the army, but we make do and get the job done.

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
don't have the ability or desire to adapt to the current type and tempo of operation going on around the world
#1 - Again, who in the Marine Corps doesn't have the desire? Example, please.

#2 - We are keeping up just fine with the operational tempo. We didn't have to adapt, we were ready from the start, give me an example of how we weren't ready? In fact, the Marine Corps' leadership pushes for a bigger share of the action.

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Originally Posted by CavTrooper View Post
As for training, we all receive great training, a lot of the Marine Corps training is administered by the Army. That's why I can't get butthurt when a Marine tells me they have the best training, its true, because they are trained b the best! On top of that, things that are reserved for the "special" units in the Corps are things that we do as our everyday gig, like airborne, air assault and such.
#1 - The Marine Corps utilizes army and navy training schools, as well as our own. The majority of Marine 03s will never attend a single army school, and are therefore not "trained by the best" (the army) as you put it, but rather trained by Marines. I've seen Marines graduate from ranger school as honor graduate, being the only Marine in a class of ~300, how is army training better when out of ~300 army soldiers not one could place higher than a Marine? I realize this is not the case in every single ranger class, however, if army soldiers are trained better than Marines, there should ALWAYS be at least one army soldier out of ~300, who is capable of placing higher than a single Marine.

#2 - The reason some army training schools are reserved for Marine Corps "special" units as you call them, is simply because our units don't have much use for airborne, or other army schools. Why would a Marine need to learn how to jump out of a plane when we insert by helicopter or AAVs? That would be as useful as training army soldiers to conduct an amphibious assault with our AAVs

#3 - One could argue that the reason airborne and other training schools, are an "everyday gig" in the army is because being "just" an army soldier isn't enough. The army gives out so many airborne or ranger slots as enlistment or retention incentives. What percentage of army airborne soldiers ever make a combat jump? Sending so many army soldiers to possibly unnecessary schools may be just a huge waste of tax payer money.
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  #126  
Old 11-11-2009, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by svsrider View Post
No, actually I did not respond to your posts. I simply suggested that those thinking of enlisting should do their own research rather than believe anything you have said while choosing which service fits them best.

If I would have responded, it would have looked like this:



#1 - The Marine Corps does not have "basic training," we have "boot camp"

#2 - Simply comparing attriction rates is unfair, the same exact people do not join each service. There could be several reasons for the army having the highest attrition. One could argue that Marine Corps recruits are smarter and stronger, or that the Marine recruiters prepare their recruits better.

#3 - Marine Corps boot camp has higher physical fitness standards, and is longer than army basic training

#4 - You can go home for 10 days if you are at army basic training, not in the Marine Corps

#5 - Cell phone use during army boot camp is allowed on some weekends, not in the Marine Corps

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyj...ccellphone.htm

#6 - Marines joining the army are exempt from army basic training, army soldiers are not exempt from Marine Corps boot camp



#1 - MCRD stands for Marine Corps Recruit Depot

#2 - There are 2 MCRD, 1 in San Deigo, 1 on "Perris Island"



#1 - The Marine Corps, along with ALL other services have reserve forces. Marine Corps reservists do wear the same uniform (we don't have patches). I realize the National Guard is not the same as the reserves, however, would you say the army reserve differs in the way they represent the army?

#2 - The Marine Corps does "deal" with this, except that it is a benefit to the Marine Corps to have Marines representing us out in society, where there are no Marine Corps bases.



I Personally know an army MP, who has been in for 6+ years, and has only once deployed to Iraq. I personally know another army solder, in the infantry for 4 years, deployed once for 10 months to Iraq. I personally know another army soldier, in the infantry for 5 years, deployed twice.

On the other hand, I know multiple Marines who have deployed 3 or 4 times (6 to 7 month deployments) in 4 or 5 years, that's far more "time with boots on the ground"

Do these examples I gave apply to every army soldier or Marine? No, but your belief that soldiers spend "more time with boots on the ground," is false.



The first part is true, but different missions? The Marine Corps and army certainly use different methods, but how would you distinguish the army's present mission in afghanistan from the Marine Corps' present mission in Afghanistan?



Who? Please give me an example



Yes, the Marine Corps is often not equipped as well as the army, we have always dealt with comparitively less funding for training and equipment than the army, but we make do and get the job done.



#1 - Again, who in the Marine Corps doesn't have the desire? Example, please.

#2 - We are keeping up just fine with the operational tempo. We didn't have to adapt, we were ready from the start, give me an example of how we weren't ready? In fact, the Marine Corps' leadership pushes for a bigger share of the action.



#1 - The Marine Corps utilizes army and navy training schools, as well as our own. The majority of Marine 03s will never attend a single army school, and are therefore not "trained by the best" (the army) as you put it, but rather trained by Marines. I've seen Marines graduate from ranger school as honor graduate, being the only Marine in a class of ~300, how is army training better when out of ~300 army soldiers not one could place higher than a Marine? I realize this is not the case in every single ranger class, however, if army soldiers are trained better than Marines, there should ALWAYS be at least one army soldier out of ~300, who is capable of placing higher than a single Marine.

#2 - The reason some army training schools are reserved for Marine Corps "special" units as you call them, is simply because our units don't have much use for airborne, or other army schools. Why would a Marine need to learn how to jump out of a plane when we insert by helicopter or AAVs? That would be as useful as training army soldiers to conduct an amphibious assault with our AAVs

#3 - One could argue that the reason airborne and other training schools, are an "everyday gig" in the army is because being "just" an army soldier isn't enough. The army gives out so many airborne or ranger slots as enlistment or retention incentives. What percentage of army airborne soldiers ever make a combat jump? Sending so many army soldiers to possibly unnecessary schools may be just a huge waste of tax payer money.
when was the last time you (the marines) hit a defended beach? there were combat jumps into Iraq, grenada off the top of my head. I'm not saying that since there hasn't been an assault on a defended beach in a while that training to do so is a waste of time but using your criteria you are.
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  #127  
Old 11-12-2009, 9:24 AM
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None of my comments were about specific pride of my service over others, other than "Hey, we do not suck like you're saying we do!".

I said basic training (Boot Camp) is hard by its very nature and if you expect it to be easy you're gonna fail. That's true.

I said my personal experience is that what is supposed to be the easiest boot camp was by no means easy. That's true.

I said the Marines boot camp is more physically challenging, but all of them are mentally challenging. That's true.

I said women were not incomptent or incapable of being excellent Airmen, Sailors, Soldiers and Marines. That's true.

Whenever I got something from a book, and not first hand knowledge I said so. I made clear distinctions between what I knew to be fact, and what I only believed to be fact. So if some of that is wrong...there is no way for me to know. But I never tried to claim otherwise.

When I was only playing Devil's Advocate I said so.

When I was only kidding, I made that very clear.

Basically, all I did was say that the Army is NOT more studly than the rest of us, and that women do belong in the military and will eventually find themselves in every aspect of the armed forces. While some may consider that a matter of opinion, I consider it fact.

I also said that if I had to be stuck in the middle of no where with members of another service (which happended to me a lot when I was in), I'd pick the Marines because the ones I served with were not only excellent warriors but great guys. The Army guys were cool for the most part, but the Navy guys (the ones I met at least) were jerks. That's true.

Which part of that do you disagree with? Or was I supposed to let some Army rant on and on about how the Army are studly and the rest of us suck?

Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-12-2009 at 9:47 AM..
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  #128  
Old 11-12-2009, 10:14 AM
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I will say, that for me personally, I joined the wrong service. I had no way of knowing it at the time, but I personally would have enjoyed being either in the Marines or in the Army much more than I did the Air Force. That's a tough pill to swallow. I am very proud of having served, and am very proud of the Air Force. They have an important mission. I just never really found my place there.

Being part of an Air Mobility Port Flight was about as close to being a Marine or Soldier as the Air Force has, aside from our Special Operations Teams of course. You are constantly deployed in harm’s way, among the very first boots on the ground, and your rifle is your life line…help is very far away. That part of my military service I truly enjoyed, but even that part of my service only gave me a glimpse of what I really wanted to be to be doing. When I ended up stuck behind a desk a couple years later...I absolutely hated it. The longer I was there, the older I got and the softer around the middle I got. No more required 5 mile a day runs in morning, no more paid trips to the gym. Just lots of coffee, and time stuck behind a computer (not unlike my civilian life today).

Bear in mind, I had never gone camping as kid. Or hunting. I had never done any of the types of things that would cause somebody to think they would enjoy being a Soldier or Marine rather than an Airman or Sailor. So I had no way of knowing I would find that type of life style fulfilling. I had been around airplanes my entire life, and boats...and I knew I enjoyed them both.

That is not to say the Army and Marines don't have desk jockeys, they do...and I would have hated being one in any branch of service. My fellow desk jokeys hated me too, I was terrible at it. I was so much better at my previous job it wasn't even funny. Having to deal with the downsides of military life, just to sit behind a desk and be terrible at it, just didn’t seem worth it. I hated it so much...I left the military and went to college immediately after finishing my four years of active service. Reenlistment was an option, which was surprising since I was terrible at my new job and since reenlistment in the Air Force was extemely competitve at the time, but I had enough.

After college I felt the sense of duty calling to me again. So I looked into becoming an officer. Why not, right? Might as well get something out my degree. I looked at the Air Force, because it was what I knew. They were not taking prior military service at all at that time. Next I looked into the Marines. I figured what the hell, go big or go home. They were VERY interested, which was exciting. I got about half way through the recruitment process, to the part where your next trip in to see the recruiter you sign your life away, when an advertising company in San Francisco offered me a job. I hadn't seen my family or friends (other than holidays) for eight years. I missed home. So I chose a civilian career instead. You could say I wimped out, but it wasn't because of fear. I knew what to expect from the military. I wasn't afraid of it at all. I just missed my family. The nephews were growing up without an uncle. I wanted to be there to watch them grow up. Besides, at that point civilian life seemed like more of challenge. The only real job I had ever had was the military. Civilian life was the great unknown.

I can't say I regret my decision. I am best friends with my nephews and little cousins. I made a huge difference in their lives, and they needed it. I will say I am very curious to know what my life would be like if I were still in the military.

9/11 was the hardest. After 9/11 I felt a nagging sense of failure to do my duty. It is nuts. I served. I did my part. Still, my country is at war and I feel more than a little guilty not being in uniform anymore. It's crazy...I can't explain it.

I looked into becoming a police officer, looked into joining various federal agencies. Nothing seemed to be a good fit. I’ve been out of the game too long. I even considered joining the reserves, but sadly I am too old now to be anything but a desk jockey...and I already know I won't find that rewarding at all. Besides, being a 36 year old Staff Sergeant would be weird. The reserves recruit officers from within, but at least you start off one stripe above where you left off…usually.

Yeah, yeah..."if you wanted excuses you would have joined the Air Force." Heard it all before.

My point is, each branch of service offers something unique. There is something there for everyone with a strong sense of duty. The trick is finding the right one for you, and then making the best of where you find yourself. I am not sure I did a good job of that...but I am very proud I served. I know I made a difference, at least in the first part of my enlistment. I brought food and medicine to the starving Africa, brought nukes back from Europe, helped protect the Kurds in Northern Iraq, stopped ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, helped rescue crews deploy to Oklahoma, and on and on. Ok, I only played a very tiny part in all of that...but I am proud of that teeny tiny part. As well I should be.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-12-2009 at 10:27 AM..
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  #129  
Old 11-12-2009, 1:59 PM
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Very well said tacticalcity. Only one thing, I never met anyone that was under the impression that the army was a "studly" service. That was always the Marines. They were the elite branch. And if it was army it was Rangers or something like that. Everyone I've met always just assumed the army was the most basic branch that pretty much anybody could join. That, and they "aren't as hardcore as the Marines."
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Old 11-12-2009, 7:12 PM
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9/11 was the hardest. After 9/11 I felt a nagging sense of failure to do my duty. It is nuts. I served. I did my part. Still, my country is at war and I feel more than a little guilty not being in uniform anymore. It's crazy...I can't explain it.
You don't have to,Thanks for serving.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:04 AM
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Oh to be 19 again...you young guys have no clue just how much you life by the balls.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:14 AM
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Oh to be 19 again...you young guys have no clue just how much you life by the balls.
Indeed. I'm 23 and I cry myself to sleep that I'm not 21 anymore. Year 19-23 is just a blur to me now
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:20 AM
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23 and *****in' about being old already? I'd take 23. Of course, ask a 46 year old how he feels about 36 and he'll say the same.

At 23 you can still run fast, jump high, and chase the same hotties you did at 19...not so much at 36, at least not without looking like an idiot...a price I pay often.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:37 AM
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23 and *****in' about being old already? I'd take 23. Of course, ask a 46 year old how he feels about 36 and he'll say the same.
I know man, I'm just teasing you

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At 23 you can still run fast, jump high, and chase the same hotties you did at 19...not so much at 36, at least not without looking like an idiot...a price I pay often.
lol, I hear a story coming on
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:06 AM
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No...too many to tell.
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:36 AM
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When I got out, I went to work as a paperboy first, and one of my deliveries was a client who got the wallstreet journal, on the front page in early 06 it had an article about the army's 19% drop out rate in 2005. Hit me kinda hard, because I was part of that 19%, they talked about how the difference between todays generation and the generations of the past handle basic differently. Talked about how the army was working with MTV and some youth group to help understand and adapt the training for the new generation of soldiers.
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:41 AM
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I believe read somewhere (might have been a book on the Roman Empire, dunno) that a country's right to exist is directly related to how willing it's citizens are to fight in it's armies.

We need to teach more pride and duty to country. The last thing we need is to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for recruits which is only one notch above conscription.
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Old 11-13-2009, 1:25 PM
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I believe read somewhere (might have been a book on the Roman Empire, dunno) that a country's right to exist is directly related to how willing it's citizens are to fight in it's armies.

We need to teach more pride and duty to country. The last thing we need is to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for recruits which is only one notch above conscription.
Yes, but at the same time you have thousands upon thousands of willing recruits who are disqualifed from service because of things like asthma, knee surgeries, criminal records, age and more.

In my case I've had a knee surgery, eye surgery and went through some therapy when I was younger for a brothers death. I'm disqualified and need 3 waivers. Yet I can run (not great), shoot, climb, jump, read, write, etc. While I'd love a combat arms position, I'd be happy working in transport (88M), being a load master, or some other non-combat position.

You have people like my cousin who have 1 non-violent felony, who'd love to straighten out their life and serve their country, but they can't because of one mistake they made when they were a dumb kid.

You have plenty of supply and clerk jobs, people with asthma or older people could and would happily work.

How many 40 and 50 year olds were trying to enlist when we invaded Iraq? I remember the news doing several articles and segments on it. You mean to tell me there weren't any jobs for them. The Army, Navy, Marines and Airforce doesn't need cooks? quartermasters? mechanics? carpenters? etc etc

Or does everyone who fills those jobs really need to be 18-20 years old and capable of running a mile in under 8 minutes?

The people are more then willing, those in charges are just to god damn picky. Lower the standard? What is the standard for serving in the military.


How the hell can this guy keep serving our country (not saying he's a bad guy, but he has no leg!)

http://www.emilitary.org/article.php?aid=14343

Yet, if I want to serve my country the closest I'll ever get again is hasseling bums downtown?
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  #139  
Old 11-13-2009, 3:17 PM
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Yes, but at the same time you have thousands upon thousands of willing recruits who are disqualifed from service because of things like asthma, knee surgeries, criminal records, age and more.

In my case I've had a knee surgery, eye surgery and went through some therapy when I was younger for a brothers death. I'm disqualified and need 3 waivers. Yet I can run (not great), shoot, climb, jump, read, write, etc. While I'd love a combat arms position, I'd be happy working in transport (88M), being a load master, or some other non-combat position.

You have people like my cousin who have 1 non-violent felony, who'd love to straighten out their life and serve their country, but they can't because of one mistake they made when they were a dumb kid.

You have plenty of supply and clerk jobs, people with asthma or older people could and would happily work.

How many 40 and 50 year olds were trying to enlist when we invaded Iraq? I remember the news doing several articles and segments on it. You mean to tell me there weren't any jobs for them. The Army, Navy, Marines and Airforce doesn't need cooks? quartermasters? mechanics? carpenters? etc etc

Or does everyone who fills those jobs really need to be 18-20 years old and capable of running a mile in under 8 minutes?

The people are more then willing, those in charges are just to god damn picky. Lower the standard? What is the standard for serving in the military.


How the hell can this guy keep serving our country (not saying he's a bad guy, but he has no leg!)

http://www.emilitary.org/article.php?aid=14343

Yet, if I want to serve my country the closest I'll ever get again is hasseling bums downtown?
I agree with everything that you said, and yes there are many people who are more than capable of serving in non-combat arms roles. Just very recently the army raised its maximum enlistment age from 35 to 42. That is great, but it was about damn time! This isn't the 1910's where the average lifespan of a human was 50 or 60. I have met many senior sergeants and officers in their early 40's who could smoke us green 18yo recruits at PT.

But my point was that while there are many people answering the call to service who can't get in, there are hundreds of thousands more people who dismiss joining the army as beneath them. My dad always told me that he believed in the draft because it taught a young man to respect and serve his country.

I'm not 100% with him on that. But I do think the point he was trying to make was that back in his day the average young man knew that he, whether he wanted to or not, had an obligation to serve his country. All an army really is is just an armed force of people who have been drawn from the general population. Thus an army is just reflection or representation of that society.

Chances are if you ask any man from my dad's generation, you'll probably find a uniform jacket, a pair of boots, or a picture from their "stint" in the army. When you have an all-volunteer force, the general population is less "connected" with what the army is or what or what it really does. Subsequently, a separate "military-class" emerges and usually does not interact with the general population.

Am I advocating conscription? No, not really. Unwilling conscripts are more trouble than they're worth. But it would be nice to see more people my age who respect the army and feel that joining is an honorable pursuit.
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Old 11-13-2009, 3:35 PM
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My uncle wished there was a force as part of the military for those who can no longer serve physically to instruct, and pass on lessons as mentors. There's a lot of knowledge that many former military members could be able to pass on, along with a personal story and examples gained from real life experience.
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  #141  
Old 11-13-2009, 3:37 PM
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There is a place for them called a retirement home. LOL J/K.
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Old 11-13-2009, 6:11 PM
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I'm sorry to hear they wouldn't take you. Don’t feel too bad. I have buddy with asthma that is a SWAT team member for his police department. Guy could always keep up with me in sports as a kid (we were co-captains of our wrestling team) and now he can run laps around me. It's like he never aged. The military really missed out on him. He is one of those guys who seems to be able to do anything. It is just when he was a really little kid he needed an inhaler. If they had let him serve I am convinced he could have gone Spec Ops. The guy feels no pain, never quits, and never stops. Go figure. If I were him, I would have kept it to myself and not told them. It had been 10 years since he had an attack, now its been 30...its no longer an issue.

I was transportation...spent the first two years bouncing from one country to another collecting hazardous duty pay. They can and do tap people from ordinary career fields to do extraordinary things. A lot of people spend their entire careers pushing paper or pallets, others are supposed to be slotted for that and end up in the field with a rifle in their hands instead. You never know. Its just not that clear cut. On paper you’re one thing, in reality you do something completely different. So they treat everybody like they might need to drop them in the middle of nowhere with a rifle in their hands. Or so the theory goes. Still…sucks. Sorry.

And for the retirement home mentor program...I'm not that old! ;-)

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  #143  
Old 11-13-2009, 6:34 PM
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I agree with everything that you said, and yes there are many people who are more than capable of serving in non-combat arms roles. Just very recently the army raised its maximum enlistment age from 35 to 42. That is great, but it was about damn time! This isn't the 1910's where the average lifespan of a human was 50 or 60. I have met many senior sergeants and officers in their early 40's who could smoke us green 18yo recruits at PT.

But my point was that while there are many people answering the call to service who can't get in, there are hundreds of thousands more people who dismiss joining the army as beneath them. My dad always told me that he believed in the draft because it taught a young man to respect and serve his country.

I'm not 100% with him on that. But I do think the point he was trying to make was that back in his day the average young man knew that he, whether he wanted to or not, had an obligation to serve his country. All an army really is is just an armed force of people who have been drawn from the general population. Thus an army is just reflection or representation of that society.

Chances are if you ask any man from my dad's generation, you'll probably find a uniform jacket, a pair of boots, or a picture from their "stint" in the army. When you have an all-volunteer force, the general population is less "connected" with what the army is or what or what it really does. Subsequently, a separate "military-class" emerges and usually does not interact with the general population.

Am I advocating conscription? No, not really. Unwilling conscripts are more trouble than they're worth. But it would be nice to see more people my age who respect the army and feel that joining is an honorable pursuit.
I'm picking up what your putting down and I agree.

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I'm sorry to hear they wouldn't take you. Don’t feel too bad. I have buddy with asthma that is a SWAT team member for his police department. Guy could always keep up with me in sports as a kid (we were co-captains of our wrestling team) and now he can run laps around me. It's like he never aged. The military really missed out on him. He is one of those guys who seems to be able to do anything. It is just when he was a really little kid he needed an inhaler. If they had let him serve I am convinced he could have gone Spec Ops. The guy feels no pain, never quits, and never stops. Go figure. If I were him, I would have kept it to myself and not told them. It had been 10 years since he had an attack, now its been 30...its no longer an issue.
Exactly my point! How many able bodied men and women have been rejected for things that never have and never will be a real problem.
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  #144  
Old 11-14-2009, 8:32 PM
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I think the issue is liability. They become responsible for your health the moment they accept you (if you earn under a certain amount) for the rest of your life. At any point if your income drops below that level (you loose your job) they provide you with health care. Lots of conditions are progressive, or can lead to other conditions.

Hey, I agree that it sucks. My father was a pilot all his life. Starting flying crop dusters at 16. Builds his own planes and does exhibition flying and stunts. He would have made an outstanding combat pilot. He was rejected due a bad back. In there defense, he has had at least $500,000 worth of back surgeries and shoulder surgeries that were caused by the bad back over the years. The would have assumed liability for that. Instead he became a succesful businessman in order to fund his love of flying and care for his family. Man does he love to up there.

What if my buddy actually did have an asthma attack in combat? Not only could he get himself killed, but others as well. His SWAT team is willing to assume that risk, because it has been so long since the last attack and because he is such a stud. The military wasn't.

For the person denied the ability to serve, it seriously sucks.

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Old 11-17-2009, 7:49 AM
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So what about those who have tattoo's or criminal records? They carry no medical liability. The medical liability could also be an easy fix, contracts protecting the respected branch from supporting the existing injury.

Sure there is always the risk of an asthma attack, but there are also non-combat jobs. Your friend may not of wanted a non-combat job such as a mechanic etc, but many others with asthma would.

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Originally Posted by tacticalcity View Post
I think the issue is liability. They become responsible for your health the moment they accept you (if you earn under a certain amount) for the rest of your life. At any point if your income drops below that level (you loose your job) they provide you with health care. Lots of conditions are progressive, or can lead to other conditions.

Hey, I agree that it sucks. My father was a pilot all his life. Starting flying crop dusters at 16. Builds his own planes and does exhibition flying and stunts. He would have made an outstanding combat pilot. He was rejected due a bad back. In there defense, he has had at least $500,000 worth of back surgeries and shoulder surgeries that were caused by the bad back over the years. The would have assumed liability for that. Instead he became a succesful businessman in order to fund his love of flying and care for his family. Man does he love to up there.

What if my buddy actually did have an asthma attack in combat? Not only could he get himself killed, but others as well. His SWAT team is willing to assume that risk, because it has been so long since the last attack and because he is such a stud. The military wasn't.

For the person denied the ability to serve, it seriously sucks.
There are some loop holes it just pisses me off I have to play this game. Instead of getting a chance now, I have to jump through hoops and loops, so I can have a better chance in 2-3 years. The idea of getting in at 26 or 27 instead of 24 is aggravating. How many windows will close by then due to other restrictions and cut offs...
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  #146  
Old 11-17-2009, 6:01 PM
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Did you try every service or just one? If one service says no, or does not have a spot, or just can't do a waiver, maybe one of the other services can.

Did you try going and talking to a different recruiter, and explaining whats going on and how much you want to serve and how your current recruiter just doesn't seem to be doing enough to assist you in getting in and tell him just how grateful you will be if HE can find a waiver for you? His alpha male ego may kick and he'll want to do what the other recruiter couldn't. These guys are very competitive about their recruiting numbers. Especially if their numbers are low at that moment. These guys to be thought of as the good guy. If he can help you fullfil your dream, he's gonna feel good about that. If they guy are working with doesn't, odds are they next guy will.

Maybe you tried all that already. I am just saying, if it means that much to you, don't let one recruiter or one branch of service stop you from serving. Try them all. Keep trying. Don’t let this guy jerk you around. Try another branch of the service, or try the recruiter in another county and let him know you’re being a jerked around. Odds are he’ll bend over backwards to get you in.

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Old 11-17-2009, 8:30 PM
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when was the last time you (the marines) hit a defended beach? there were combat jumps into Iraq, grenada off the top of my head. I'm not saying that since there hasn't been an assault on a defended beach in a while that training to do so is a waste of time but using your criteria you are.
#1 - I am aware of the recent combat jumps by army soldiers, I did not question the usefulness of airborne troops. I questioned the number of army soldiers sent to airborne school who are not in units where they will ever have a chance for the army to utilize their airborne training.

#2 - I do NOT have a problem with the army training every single soldier to jump out of a plane, but I DO have a problem with someone saying that army soldiers are better trained because they have gone to army airborne school.

#3 - The difference between army airborne school and training Marines to "hit a defended beach" as you say, is that the only Marines trained to "hit a defended beach" are those who will be on/are on an LHD/LHA. We do not send Marines from their unit to a "hit a defended beach" school, the training is done with their unit. Marines are ONLY trained to "hit a defended beach" when they are with a unit that has the possibility of actually doing so.

#4 - When Marines need to get from ship to shore how would you suggest they do it? One method is "hit a defended beach," we also have helicopters if you haden't noticed, we don't spend all day training to "hit a defended beach." If you have another way to get Marines from ship to shore please share it.

#5 - Why does it matter if the beach is defended or not? Does the army only drop soldiers into defended areas?

#6 - Here's a quick little history review since you seem to have forgotten (I'll go from Grenada to Iraq since that's what you mentioned) :

2003: Royal Marines, U.S. Marines and Polish special forces conduct amphibious assault on the al-Faw peninsula

2001: Marines launched from ships, via helicopter into Afghanistan

1993: Operation Restore Hope - Marines land at beaches on Somalia

1983: Marines launched from ships, via helicopter into Grenada
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Old 11-17-2009, 8:36 PM
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Yet you felt the need to respond!

Seriously though, please point out what "misinformation" I have posted, If I am wrong, I would like to be corrected.

Thank you.
Do you always disappear after you call someone out? I only ask because I noticed you posted on another thread, should I assume that you concede all my corrections?
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:15 PM
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#1 - I am aware of the recent combat jumps by army soldiers, I did not question the usefulness of airborne troops. I questioned the number of army soldiers sent to airborne school who are not in units where they will ever have a chance for the army to utilize their airborne training.

#2 - I do NOT have a problem with the army training every single soldier to jump out of a plane, but I DO have a problem with someone saying that army soldiers are better trained because they have gone to army airborne school.

#3 - The difference between army airborne school and training Marines to "hit a defended beach" as you say, is that the only Marines trained to "hit a defended beach" are those who will be on/are on an LHD/LHA. We do not send Marines from their unit to a "hit a defended beach" school, the training is done with their unit. Marines are ONLY trained to "hit a defended beach" when they are with a unit that has the possibility of actually doing so.
why again do you have aavs and are hoping to acquire the efv? why do your lpd/lha have the capability to launch amphibious forces? all of that equipment seems to have a certain intent behind it. why do you have doctrine out about a 30nm limit for launching an amphibious assault and that your new amphibious assault vehicle must be able to launch from that distance?
#4 - When Marines need to get from ship to shore how would you suggest they do it? One method is "hit a defended beach," we also have helicopters if you haden't noticed, we don't spend all day training to "hit a defended beach." If you have another way to get Marines from ship to shore please share it.
the use of helicopters is irrelevant i merely pointed out you questioning the utility of airborne forces and pointed out a parallel, assaulting a beach and apparently hit a nerve
#5 - Why does it matter if the beach is defended or not? Does the army only drop soldiers into defended areas?
how would one assault an undefended beach, i would hope have i assume been trained in at least some elements of amphibious doctrine you asked this in jest
#6 - Here's a quick little history review since you seem to have forgotten (I'll go from Grenada to Iraq since that's what you mentioned) :

2003: Royal Marines, U.S. Marines and Polish special forces conduct amphibious assault on the al-Faw peninsula

2001: Marines launched from ships, via helicopter into Afghanistan
not a beach not was i was talking about
1993: Operation Restore Hope - Marines land at beaches on Somalia
but did they assault it?
1983: Marines launched from ships, via helicopter into Grenada
not a beach not what i was talking about.

if the marine corps has no intent on assaulting beaches, which has not been done for quite some time why are they trying to buy hundreds of these

obviously they will do more that assault beaches but they specifically have that ability. why because the marines train to assault beaches and procure equipment with that specific intent. how many of these vehicles that will cost millions of dollars will actually assault a beach? how many aavs actually assaulted a beach and how much money ws spent procuring them?

so in fact the marine corps has not assaulted a beach in some time which is what i said minus one joint op. so then why does the marine corps maintain such a large focus on landing forces under fire? probably for the same reason the army sends personnel to airborne school.

this this obviously struck a nerve ill go one step further, how many marines who will not enter combat receive combat focused training, that must be a huge waste of resources.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:01 PM
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Did you try every service or just one? If one service says no, or does not have a spot, or just can't do a waiver, maybe one of the other services can.

Did you try going and talking to a different recruiter, and explaining whats going on and how much you want to serve and how your current recruiter just doesn't seem to be doing enough to assist you in getting in and tell him just how grateful you will be if HE can find a waiver for you? His alpha male ego may kick and he'll want to do what the other recruiter couldn't. These guys are very competitive about their recruiting numbers. Especially if their numbers are low at that moment. These guys to be thought of as the good guy. If he can help you fullfil your dream, he's gonna feel good about that. If they guy are working with doesn't, odds are they next guy will.

Maybe you tried all that already. I am just saying, if it means that much to you, don't let one recruiter or one branch of service stop you from serving. Try them all. Keep trying. Don’t let this guy jerk you around. Try another branch of the service, or try the recruiter in another county and let him know you’re being a jerked around. Odds are he’ll bend over backwards to get you in.
I've tried numerous army, national guard, airforce, airforce reserve and even 1coast guard recruiter.

The over all (synopsis)... I was told, due to the economy and end of the school year every branch was sitting (and I quote the Airforce) fat dumb and happy. Their enlistments are way up. Two different national guard recruiters including a friend of a friend, told me it was a no go on waivers for enlisted. But the guard was and still is hurting for Officers, so they're getting waivers left and right for anyone who qualifies for a Commission. Both of them told me to get my units up and come back, otherwise trying for waivers right down as enlisted would just disqualify me and ruin a future opportunity.

The story is the same with every other branch I contacted. The Airforce though actually wanted a 4th waiver for my tattoo's. Which the recruiter was very confident wouldn't get approved.

Long story short,

Every branch and every recruiter has said, I can either;

A) Try now and they'll do their damniest, but odds are I'll get denied on 1 of the 3 (4 if I go airforce) waivers, because the system isn't as generous as it was when recruiting was slow. Every recruiter has urged me not to try right now, because I'd probably get disqualified.

B) I can wait until recruiting dies down, (In June I was told try October, now I'm told try Oct 2010).

C) I can finish up my degree while I wait and if the door doesn't open for Enlisted, it'll always be open for a state commission.


So in essence, I'm kinda still in the Army, because they've got me waiting...


I don't think the recruiters are in the wrong or being dicks, every single one of them as been sincere and understood my situation. Almost all of them have offered to submit my packet and get the ball rolling. Only 1 Army recruiter and 1 of the Guard recruiters flat out said no. The rest, explained if I wanted in, rushing it would only hurt my chances. The fact is they almost all say the exact same thing.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:33 PM
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Yes, but at the same time you have thousands upon thousands of willing recruits who are disqualifed from service because of things like asthma, knee surgeries, criminal records, age and more.

In my case I've had a knee surgery, eye surgery and went through some therapy when I was younger for a brothers death. I'm disqualified and need 3 waivers. Yet I can run (not great), shoot, climb, jump, read, write, etc. While I'd love a combat arms position, I'd be happy working in transport (88M), being a load master, or some other non-combat position.

You have people like my cousin who have 1 non-violent felony, who'd love to straighten out their life and serve their country, but they can't because of one mistake they made when they were a dumb kid.

You have plenty of supply and clerk jobs, people with asthma or older people could and would happily work.

How many 40 and 50 year olds were trying to enlist when we invaded Iraq? I remember the news doing several articles and segments on it. You mean to tell me there weren't any jobs for them. The Army, Navy, Marines and Airforce doesn't need cooks? quartermasters? mechanics? carpenters? etc etc

Or does everyone who fills those jobs really need to be 18-20 years old and capable of running a mile in under 8 minutes?

The people are more then willing, those in charges are just to god damn picky. Lower the standard? What is the standard for serving in the military.


How the hell can this guy keep serving our country (not saying he's a bad guy, but he has no leg!)

http://www.emilitary.org/article.php?aid=14343

Yet, if I want to serve my country the closest I'll ever get again is hasseling bums downtown?
Like any employer, once they hire you, hey are responsible for your injuries.
A guy I worked with had to get a waiver for his ankles, got in, served his time and got out, years later, he went to the VA and now is on disablility for injuries worsened in the Army, ankles. There are thousands of low life people that take advantage of the system like this, is it any wonder they would be careful when recruiting someone with past injuries. You can still serve your country, just in a different way, Hospitals, Old folk's home's. You don't have to be military to be a hero. Stop messing with the bums.
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  #152  
Old 11-18-2009, 1:37 PM
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tacticalcity tacticalcity is offline
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Hell man, I would finish the degree. Life is better, especially if you end up stuck at a training base where everything is spit and polish 24-7. Life is just a tad easier in general with that little peice of paper. Nothing wrong with a shiny chunk of metal on your collar at all.

And people that say life has to be as hard as possible or you haven't lived are just trying to make themselves feel better about how crappy it has gone. Not bashing enlisted at all. I was enlisted. I am just saying, nothing wrong with being the guy in charge - though I am sure somebody here will post the usual "officers suck" comment.

Enlisted that bash officers is about as cheesy and serious as bashing each other's service. Only the real idiots actually mean it. Most of us are just joking around just to have something to joking around about. Overwelming majority of us woulld have jumped at the opportunity to attend OCS if it came up. Some no, most yes. We would need to be really attached to what we were doing to not want to get the pay bump and added responsibiliy. Winners always want the ball. Only reason not to take the opportunity is you feel you already have the ball and don't want to put it down.

It would be one thing if they were going to let you be Delta, and you craved the rush of being a shooter, and getting bars meant you would be back at base camp instead. But since that's an unlikely career path given the past injuries, then all I see is an upside to being an officer vs. enlisted.

It's a no brainer man. They made the choice very easy for you. Get the degree, go for the bars. I'd sell you your first salute, but my saluting days are done!

Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-18-2009 at 1:46 PM..
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  #153  
Old 11-18-2009, 1:42 PM
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Hell man, I would finish the degree. Life is better, especially if you end up stuck at a training base where everything is spit and polish 24-7. Life is just a tad easier in general with that little peice of paper.
Which is pretty much where my goals have shifted. Now that I'm older, a home owner and in a serious relationship, I'm not looking to go E-1 11B again. I want to do it smart and get as much as I can out of it. I'm just impatient and am afraid of possible future problems. What mayl stop me again in 2-3 years?
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  #154  
Old 11-18-2009, 1:49 PM
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Yeah, I think I missed the cut off by 2 years for bars on my shoulder. Too damn old. I know they will offer a waiver up to 34, but I think that includes a credit for each year of service already, I am 36. If I were to go back in I would have to do it as an enlisted man, and I have way too many bills for that.

So that alone is what keeps me grounded in reality. Those days are done for me.

If they ever increase that window I'll start having delusions of grandeur.
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  #155  
Old 11-18-2009, 2:11 PM
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There is a place for them called a retirement home. LOL J/K.
LOL

I think the funniest thing I've seen is when he flipped out when being asked if he were Vietnamese.
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  #156  
Old 11-18-2009, 9:40 PM
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No, actually I did not respond to your posts. I simply suggested that those thinking of enlisting should do their own research rather than believe anything you have said while choosing which service fits them best.

If I would have responded, it would have looked like this:



#1 - The Marine Corps does not have "basic training," we have "boot camp"

Marine Corps has "Recruit training" not "boot camp.

#2 - Simply comparing attriction rates is unfair, the same exact people do not join each service. There could be several reasons for the army having the highest attrition. One could argue that Marine Corps recruits are smarter and stronger, or that the Marine recruiters prepare their recruits better.

You could, but it doesnt make it so.

#3 - Marine Corps boot camp has higher physical fitness standards, and is longer than army basic training

Marine Cors PT standards are different, not harder.
Marines do pull-ups, Army does push ups, no comparision.
Marines do crunches, Army does sit-ups, the Army standard is higher.
Marines run 3 miles, Army runs two, Marines per mile time is over 1 minute slower than the Army standard.

Marine Corps spends alot of time on Marine Corps history, swim week and "team week", the Army doesnt. Please let the people know what "team week" is.


#4 - You can go home for 10 days if you are at army basic training, not in the Marine Corps

Huh?

#5 - Cell phone use during army boot camp is allowed on some weekends, not in the Marine Corps

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyj...ccellphone.htm

Makes sense to me, instead of standing in line at a payphone, make your call and get back to training!

#6 - Marines joining the army are exempt from army basic training, army soldiers are not exempt from Marine Corps boot camp

you are right.

#1 - MCRD stands for Marine Corps Recruit Depot

Wow, thanks!

#2 - There are 2 MCRD, 1 in San Deigo, 1 on "Perris Island"

thanks again.

#1 - The Marine Corps, along with ALL other services have reserve forces. Marine Corps reservists do wear the same uniform (we don't have patches). I realize the National Guard is not the same as the reserves, however, would you say the army reserve differs in the way they represent the army?

#2 - The Marine Corps does "deal" with this, except that it is a benefit to the Marine Corps to have Marines representing us out in society, where there are no Marine Corps bases.

If you dont know the difference between Reserves and National Guard, please learn.


I Personally know an army MP, who has been in for 6+ years, and has only once deployed to Iraq. I personally know another army solder, in the infantry for 4 years, deployed once for 10 months to Iraq. I personally know another army soldier, in the infantry for 5 years, deployed twice.

On the other hand, I know multiple Marines who have deployed 3 or 4 times (6 to 7 month deployments) in 4 or 5 years, that's far more "time with boots on the ground"

Do these examples I gave apply to every army soldier or Marine? No, but your belief that soldiers spend "more time with boots on the ground," is false.

lame. One or two examples does not make my assertion "false". I was speaking "generally", and "generally" the Army spends more time on the groud then the Marine Corps.

The first part is true, but different missions? The Marine Corps and army certainly use different methods, but how would you distinguish the army's present mission in afghanistan from the Marine Corps' present mission in Afghanistan?

If you dont know the difference between historical mission and present mission, you need to learn a little bit more about the Marine Corps.

Who? Please give me an example

Commandant of the Marine Corps:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6718198


Yes, the Marine Corps is often not equipped as well as the army, we have always dealt with comparitively less funding for training and equipment than the army, but we make do and get the job done.

no one is saying they dont.

#1 - Again, who in the Marine Corps doesn't have the desire? Example, please.

See above.

#2 - We are keeping up just fine with the operational tempo. We didn't have to adapt, we were ready from the start, give me an example of how we weren't ready? In fact, the Marine Corps' leadership pushes for a bigger share of the action.

Commandant disagrees. see above.

#1 - The Marine Corps utilizes army and navy training schools, as well as our own. The majority of Marine 03s will never attend a single army school, and are therefore not "trained by the best" (the army) as you put it, but rather trained by Marines. I've seen Marines graduate from ranger school as honor graduate, being the only Marine in a class of ~300, how is army training better when out of ~300 army soldiers not one could place higher than a Marine? I realize this is not the case in every single ranger class, however, if army soldiers are trained better than Marines, there should ALWAYS be at least one army soldier out of ~300, who is capable of placing higher than a single Marine.

More Marines have failed Ranger or Airborne than have made honor grad. Youd think if they were so good, they would be tops every time!

#2 - The reason some army training schools are reserved for Marine Corps "special" units as you call them, is simply because our units don't have much use for airborne, or other army schools. Why would a Marine need to learn how to jump out of a plane when we insert by helicopter or AAVs? That would be as useful as training army soldiers to conduct an amphibious assault with our AAVs

I wonder the same thing everytime I see a FR or Angelico guy wiht jump wings.

#3 - One could argue that the reason airborne and other training schools, are an "everyday gig" in the army is because being "just" an army soldier isn't enough. The army gives out so many airborne or ranger slots as enlistment or retention incentives. What percentage of army airborne soldiers ever make a combat jump? Sending so many army soldiers to possibly unnecessary schools may be just a huge waste of tax payer money.

More Soldiers have made combat jumps in the current operations than Marine have made beach landings. 173rd, SF and CIA in northern Iraq and Afganistan for example.

Commandant of the Marine Corps says:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2128949/posts

the United States does not need a Marine Corps

Talk about a waste of taxpayer money!

The "bias and misinformation" is strong with you my friend... dont bogart the kool-aid!
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  #157  
Old 11-19-2009, 11:35 AM
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phroggunner phroggunner is offline
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CavTrooper,
While you do make valid points in your post(s) above, I'm sure you know you are quoting the Commandant of the Marine Corps out of context (unless you are drinking the aforementioned kool-aid yourself).
The article you have linked demonstrates General Conway's foresight to both the stability of Iraq, and the deterioration of the situation in Afghanistan:

Quote:
"The time is right for Marines in general terms to leave Iraq," said Marine Corps Commandant James Conway.

That war has become largely a nation-building mission rather than the pitched fighting in which the Marine Corps excels, Conway said.

Conway said he wants to see up to 20,000 Marines deployed instead to the building fight in Afghanistan, especially in the south where insurgents and the Taliban and al-Qaida benefit from both a nearby safe haven and booming trade in narcotics.

"When you've got those two elements you've got the potential for a long-term insurgency," he said. "That's where the Marines ought to be. That's what we offer the nation," he said.

Last edited by phroggunner; 11-19-2009 at 11:58 AM..
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  #158  
Old 11-20-2009, 7:08 PM
holasrmateo holasrmateo is offline
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The Army has the highest attrition rates because they don't filter people to the same extent as there other services. They accept the most waivers for everything and have the lowest ASVAB on average. If you have a medical wavier and the Marines say no, the Army will take you. If you have a GED and the AF says no, the Army will take you. An obvious exaggeration, they do turn away people, but they have a wider and less selective pool of applicants.

As far as the AF is concerned, being the most selective service, you'd imagine attrition rates being relatively low. It's like arguing the Harvard is an easy school because most people graduate with a degree and community colleges with 50% attrition rates must be the most difficult. Bottom line though, medical conditions aside, basic training (or whatever you want to call it) for any service is not designed to weed you out. You have to work but you have to be an idiot to fail.
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  #159  
Old 11-20-2009, 7:25 PM
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tacticalcity tacticalcity is offline
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I agree with just about everything you said. Except the last part. While I do not know 100% for sure they kicked the guys out of basic when they took them away (because I made it through without having it happen to me personally), but almost half our flight was pulled and did not graduate with us. The threat was always that we would either be recycled (start over) or be sent packing. Whether the last half of that threat was followed up on...I do not know. But I would think it would be, or it wouldn't be a very effective threat. Word would get out. I do know 3 people we finished with were in fact recycled. One was less than two weeks from graduation and was sent back to week one. While one or two of the people pulled were indeed idiots. The majority were not. People got pulled from our flight for extremely minor infractions, and in some cases imaginary ones. So my experience was, all you had to be not to pass was unlucky. Simply failing to stay alert and prepared meant you were in a world of hurt. The upside is, the guys who were recycled knew what to expect and did better the second time around. They were forbidden to discuss what was coming...or get a one way buss ticket home. The most we could get out of them was how far they got before they were recycled. The wouldn't even tell us what they did wrong.

Some people were sent home for academic reasons. Get less than 75% (if I am remembering that number correctly) on two tests and you automatically failed basic. For me, staying awake during the lectures and the tests themselves was the hardest part. All I wanted to do was go to sleep. The material is not hard at all. The sleep depravation, lack of food (first couple weeks they rush you out the door after only a few spoonfulls of food), and the heat brings you to a point where you simply can't seem to think. It gets easier as you go along. It never gets easy, not until you graduate. Then suddenly the military is a totally different world.

Basic is meant to be hard. You are meant to prove yourself, and you will. When its over you have a lot more self-confidence than when you showed up. You will be ready for some real responsibility.

I am not trying to scare anybody off. I am just saying get your head right. It is all about your mindset. Convince yourself you will pass. Nothing is going to shake you. Keep your eyes and mind open and your mouth shut. You'll do well.

Here is a free tip...if they ask you if you like to bowl...do not raise your hand and say you do. You'll end up on your knees cleaning the toilets and urinals with tooth brush the entire time you're there.

The only time you ever want to raise your hand is when the ask you if you want to volunteer for Special Operations. The sales pitch will be awful. They'll tell you how hard it is going to be, and how much it will suck. Hello, your like already sucks...you are in basic training. If you have good vision and nothing in your background will automatically disqualify you volunteer. It will beat the hell out of a desk job. Why didn't I you ask? They wouldn't let me. Had coke bottle glasses at the time, and Lasik wasn't out yet. I would have given my right nut to be a Combat Controller or Pararescueman.

That is the only time they ask for volunteers and it isn't some sort of trick.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-20-2009 at 8:10 PM..
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  #160  
Old 11-20-2009, 10:26 PM
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Mariners and Army basic being harder is understandable. They do the grunt work. The war fighters, the guys on the ground in the ****. Navy and AF guys sit behind big machines doing their fighting. Not that I am slanting them in any way shape or form.

I have great pride for all service men and women. Thanks for your service.
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