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#81
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it really has, and im not trying to say i have a bigger ****. in addition to operations in Europe, the army was very active in the pacific and has more amphibious operations by nature of being much larger and involved everywhere. like how the navy has the most aircraft and the army had the most ships.
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Last edited by dwa; 10-29-2009 at 11:05 PM.. |
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#83
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And again, the army having more ships than the navy is a misleading statistic. The army had more ships in WWII, but the vast majority were supply ships. The navy, although fewer in sheer numbers, still had more warships than the army.
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#84
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ships, i meant it as another lil bit of history that would seem not to make sense.
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#85
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#86
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i do have a question for you, if the efv doesn't get built do you think the corps with become much smaller? no efv mean no 40nm standoff to launch operation meaning no need for marine corps of current size.
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#87
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i think with the politics involved both army and marines will get smaller again once the war is over. that just seems to be the cycle. but i think whether or not its built the marine corps will continue to function with what it has or find a cheaper more effective solution. hopefully the govt will finally realize we need a bigger army not a smaller one. and the Corps prides itself on being a small unit. if you look up fleet landing exercises, it shows that the marines and navy were conducting these and coming up with the manual. it wasnt till the end of the 30's when the first army unit trained with the marines to learn the doctrine which helped them during d-day and other landings.
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#88
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#89
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from my understanding in he beginning the navy had some sailor companies but then gave way to the marines. the army and navy had to learn to conduct the land operation and bombardments like the army. but the army learned everything about the whole operation from the Corps. than they adjusted it to use their tactics. while the marines kept theirs. ill be honest i hate most ww2 stuff because its mainly about the army. its like we seem to forget we forgot about the japanese except for pearl harbor. but even when it is discussed your right the army is hardly discussed. kinda like korea. but then korea is the forgotten war. i like the movie the thin red line. thats about the army in the pacific.
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#90
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i think that Europe is discussed so much more because fdr was itching to get at the nazis before the war began and made it the priority over the pacific. to the credit of the marines navy and army they won a theater of war while being on the back burner so to speak. the Japanese army while having some interesting organizations (they had their own carriers) was essentially a ww 1 army lacking modern weapons or doctrine. a good example of that is when the roosikies rolled up the much hyped kwantung army.
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#91
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I was Air Force, which you would think would have been easy, right? It wasn’t. 1/3 of my flight did not graduate with us. They were either kicked out or "recycled" (made to start over or at an earlier phase of training). They don't tell you what's going to happen to a guy when the remove him from your flight. They use it as a mind game…and it works. The last thing you want to have to go home and face you’re friends and family in disgrace. Can you imagine the comments? “You mean you couldn’t even hack the Air Force? How big of a wimp are you?”
One recruit was pulled from our flight simply for making the lead TI (Training Instructor) laugh. Schaffer was a little guy. Must have gotten a height waiver just to get in. SSgt Vickers was like something right out of a cartoon about boot camp. Huge jaw, giant upper body, and tiny waist, and thick southern accent. About three weeks before graduation Vickers comes storming into our barracks and decides to have a spot inspection. We're all standing at at attention while he chews out one recruit after another. Then for the first time he finally sets in on Schaffer. He taps the brim of his "Smokey the Bear" hat into Schaffer’s forehead repeatedly while screaming at him at the top of lungs (pretty much the standard routine). Schaffer had not experienced it. I guess he was so little they left him alone. After all, it's not cool to picky on the littlest guy in the flight..not when there are so many other idiots you can torment. Schaffer leans back a little to avoid the tapping, VERY bad idea. Vickers just leans into him and keeps tapping away, yelling even louder. Schaffer leans back more. They cycle continues. Eventually Schaffer is leaning WAY back. It's like something out of cartoon, much like Vickers himself. So Vickers yells "Airman Schaffer, I want you to reach down into your drawers and tell me if you've got a pair!” So Schaffer follows the sergeant's order and replies, "Yes, Sir. Two big fat hairy ones, Sir". Vickers, the meanest of the mean, can't help himself. He laughs. He can't stop laughing. So much so that has to leave the room. A few minutes later Vickers returns, seriously pissed off that this little twit had caused him to break his military bearing...and yells "Schaffer, pack your sh__...you're outta here!" We never saw Schaffer again. I assume he was just recycled. I've heard people say boot camp in the Air Force was a cake walk. That was NOT my experience. SSGT Vickers was convinced it should be as hard as the higher ups would let him make it. It was his Air Force, and if we wanted to be part of it we were gonna bust our rears to prove we deserved to be there. Most of my "war stories" about the military happened in basic. SSGT Vickers is at the center of almost all them. He made the Drill Sergeant in Full Metal Jacket seem tame by comparison. His lines just as classic. I use them whenever possible. When you consider some of the places I was deployed, and that I had a pretty unusual career for my short four years of active duty service, the fact that basic training still manages to out shadow the rest of it really says something. Since somebody is bound to ask...I'll answer it here. The majority of people in the Air Force are Mechanics, Administration Staff, Medical Staff and never leave the base. I was part of a Mobile Aerial Port (actually it was a Aerial Mobility Port Flight but the term was short lived and nobody will recognize it). Our job was to setup and man temporary Air Bases for Special Operations (including our own but usually those from another service) whenever they were conducting missions in a theater were a base was needed but did not exist. As you can imagine, that's pretty much the norm these days. In such operations, the goal is to send as few people as possible, so we performed our own security (Air Base Ground Defense) and wore many, many hats. The roles that would normally be filled by Army Infantry in a full scale war, we performed ourselves. I'm not trying to say we were bad or anything...just that my experience differed from the typical Air Force career pretty drastically. My AFC (MOS) had very little to do with what I ended up doing all day long...and many people in the same AFC has much more boring careers. I spent a good part of my short career surround by special operations members of other services in the middle of nowhere. We bounced around the globe and never knew where would be from one week to the next. I loved it. I may not have been a bad mo fo, but I got to help the bad mo fos do their job...and I was proud of that. Then I was assigned to a desk job...which I hated. After being in a real world environment, a stateside assignment at a training base behind a desk just doesn't cut it. So instead of being a lifer, which i would have been if left me where I was...I decided to get out go to college instead. So there you go...my entire Air Force career in one paragraph. Ok, back on topic...if you are joining the Air Force because you think Basic Training is going to be easy then you're not smart enough to pass the academic side of it, so try the Navy! Seriously, Basic Training is going to be hard no matter what service you join. That is the entire point. It is supposed to be challenging. You have to prove you can cut it. You have to prove you won't panic under stress. You might get lucky and draw a kind hearted Instructor Staff, but it's highly unlikely. More often than not you will get instructors who will push your limits any way they can and play head games with you from the moment you show up until the moment you leave the base. That is their job. All this talk about how much tougher one is over the other is mostly people's egos. Inter-service rivalry trumps reality every time. There are differences. Marines place a higher emphasis on physical fitness; they pride themselves on it, though all will challenge you physically just not to that degree. Academically, they say the Air Force is the hardest, though I found it fairly easy. Never scored below a B on test, and that was because I was so sleep deprived I could barely keep my eyes open. Two scores below 75% and you get a ticket home and the questions are worded oddly enough to confuse just about anyone. When it comes to head games...all are going to be the biggest challenge of your life. I'm told the Army instruction manuals all have cartoon pictures to help recruits understand the concepts? Is that true? I doubt it. Probably just that old inter-service rivalry again. Though ASVAB scores do have to be a little higher to get into the Air Force, so you hear a lot of jokes about how dumb the Army is...totally untrue...but we say it anyways. You will be sleep deprived, you will be hungry (the first few weeks you get only a few bites of food per meal before you are rushed out the door, you will be stressed out, you will be facing challenges you can’t possibly imagine, you will have people in your face like you've never experienced before all day long and for no good reason, and you’re going to have to keep it together. When you’re done, you will have earned the right to wear the uniform. Is it worth it? You bet your a__! Last edited by tacticalcity; 10-30-2009 at 2:13 PM.. |
#92
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Last edited by phroggunner; 10-30-2009 at 5:52 PM.. |
#93
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No worries brother, just going tit for tat with the propaganda
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#94
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Ha ha fookin ha ha
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John P. Hermesmeyer U.S.M.C. 1992 to 1996 0311 5th Marines Current location: Camp Living room 1st Recline Div.Now in Texas Visit http://www.cawheelburners.com In memory of my friend Officer Ryan Bonaminio Riverside PD. Gone but not forgotten. |
#95
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prior service go thru a "bootcamp" but it isnt like the bootcamp non priors go thru
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John P. Hermesmeyer U.S.M.C. 1992 to 1996 0311 5th Marines Current location: Camp Living room 1st Recline Div.Now in Texas Visit http://www.cawheelburners.com In memory of my friend Officer Ryan Bonaminio Riverside PD. Gone but not forgotten. |
#96
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It's called pitstop, or at least that is what it was called. It was 2 or 4 weeks, can't remember exactly.
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#97
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No. I thought it would be basic that the guys went through before the pc days and girls in army.
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#98
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you went with a pog mos and were surprised when you had a pog basic. unless your 80 ill willing to bet there were women in the army before you went through.
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Last edited by dwa; 11-02-2009 at 1:28 PM.. |
#99
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Last edited by 4thSBCT; 11-02-2009 at 12:16 PM.. |
#100
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Basic was a giant mind game, and it wasn't an easy one. That said it was totally worth it. For those of you considering joining the military...do it. No matter which branch of service you join, you won't regret it. You'll be proud of it for the rest of your life. You'll make friends you'll talk to for the rest of your life. I’ve been the best man at more military buddy’s weddings than I can count, and most long after we got out. You'll have really great stories you tell over and over again for the rest of your life. As much as I tease my buddies who were in other services, I totally respect and admire them for having served...and their experiences were as cool as or cooler than mine. None of my friends regretted having served, and that includes those who served in combat. It won't be easy, but it won't be nearly as hard as you imagine it will be either. Basic training ends before you know it, and the rest of the military is NOTHING like basic training. At least, not in the Air Force. Never had anyone scream at me once I left basic training, and I consider many of the NCOs I served under close personal friends to this day. The Air Force has some pretty snazzy dorms (though for the first two years of my enlistment I never saw my dorm room because I was constantly traveling overseas). Most of the time you get your own room once you hit your first permanent duty station. Rarely are you required to share a dorm room anymore. My Dorm at Luke, AFB was as nice (only smaller) than most of the apartments I've lived in since. It made my college dorm room look like a dump. Oh, and comparatively speaking our chow halls are first rate. If you're lucky you'll get to travel somewhere cool. At the very least you will get out of your hometown. Odds are it will be the best time of your life. Keep an open mind about what career field you’ll get, and where you’ll be stationed. No matter what your recruiter promises, those are extremely flexible. A computer makes the final decision, and the computer doesn’t give a damn what you want. Every job matters, and the better your ASVAB score the greater the chances you’ll get a good job that has a civilian counter part you would actually want to do…so study hard. I was supposed to work on A10 Warthogs, didn't happen. Your duty assignment is random, aside from the fact that they intentionally get you as far away from home as they can…when possible. So don’t expect to visit Mom on the weekends. Most people are allowed to PCS (transfer to a new duty station) upon completing their first four years, in my case I was transferred after being at McGuire for only two. So if you don't like your first duty station, don't worry...it is not forever. If you have the chance to go to college first, and serve as an officer I recommend it. College ROTC will help, so do it. Those I know who earned a commission seemed to enjoy their time in the military more, and lot more of them chose to stay in for 20+ years than my friends who chose to enlist. If I had it to do over again that is how I would do it. Live and learn. Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-02-2009 at 1:37 PM.. |
#101
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That's a lovely ballad... Seriously... ...although, we did have lobster tails for dinner one night. I'll confess to that. |
#103
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i thought they had to do 12 milers just slower or something like that, i can remember but wasn't it something like 12 miles @ 15 min pace was the universal standard for rucking with combat arms and associates of course thinking it was a joke?
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#104
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well ya because women are not capable of doing all jobs, i had excellent air support provided by females and ive had crappy air support by guys. they are not capable of doing the more physical jobs, thats why theres 2 pt tests to make it less obvious to the uninformed the discrepancy.
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#106
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More and more career fields are opening up to women. Expect that trend to continue. I was a Luke, AFB when the Air Force got its first female fighter pilot and got to meet her she was very cool, very smart, very pretty and very tough. Now there are a ton of them. Eventually there will be female Rangers, Special Forces, Combat Controllers, Pararescuemen, Recon Marines, Navy Seals and so on. It is just a matter of time. Not all women would be incapable of it, there are plenty of women that could do it...just not at as high a ratio as men.
It is more about politics than anything else. The fear is that if a woman is hopelessly wounded in combat, the other male soldiers would continue to try and save her even if it meant getting killed because they have been socialized to view women as someone they MUST protect no matter what. Additionally, America has a hard enough time backing a war when we see pictures of mortally wounded men on TV. The fear is that if CNN shows video of a woman with her legs blown off people will lose all support for the war, even if it is a worthwhile effort. We don't have the stomach for war as it is. So that one I buy more than the other arguments. Over time, political pressure to be more inclusive will override those fears. Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-02-2009 at 1:58 PM.. |
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#109
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I partially agree with that also. although I have seen quite a few women out perform men. Mostly Marine women. I have also seen plenty of men get out of work for stupid reasons ie. Sick call Rangers.
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#110
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but were the men they were out preforming stellar examples of good soldiers? i found sick call rangerettes using their period to get out of stuff infuriating.
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#112
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no because i wasn't a dirt bag, i have little sympathy for men on their rag that try to get out of stuff either, but if you have a set amount of personnel say 30 and 10 of then have a "condition" that precludes them from work, 33% of your work doesn't disappear. Additionally while it takes two to tango one of them gets shipped home if they get pregnant. i don't think women should not be in the military and like i stated earlier the best k dub pilot was a female but i don't think i would have wanted her to be in my fire team. women are great at a multitude of things and are not well suited to some others blame it on humans having different sexes.
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#113
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Playing Devil’s advocate for a minute...because I really don't care one way or another about this issue (I'm not a woman, don't have daughters and my days of military service are long behind me).
Based strictly on your argument there are a lot of jobs in Special Ops that would be a possibility for women. Some of the best marathon and triathlon runners in the world are women. Endurance tests seem to be their thing, and they have exceptional lower body strength. Take the most elite unit, Delta Force. If Eric Haney's book Inside Delta Force is to be believed, upper body strength is not what their selection process is about. They are almost exclusively about endurance and ability to think when your body begins to fail. If you look at the picture in his book of a group of Delta Force guys, they are all scrawny little guys and not Arnold types. He specifically says the buff guys find their size to be a liability. He describes extremely long hikes, day-in and day-out followed up with non-stop mind games. Lots of word games that would confuse me even after a full nights rest. The tests are intentionally unfair, and the drop a lot of people for no other reason than they can, just to see how the others react to the unfairness of it and to increase the stress level. But he does not describe bench pressing contests or pushups at all. So based on his book, there is little doubt a woman would have as much chance as a man during the selection process with regards to the physical requirements. Since the tests are geared towards things they tend to be good at. Anyone with a history of running marathons and doing triathlons would do well in that selection process. Us normal mortals would have a very hard time. After selection, when they shoot thousands of rounds of .45 ACP a day in live fire training exercises with other team members sitting in front of targets, that is where upper body strength begins to matter and my argument falls apart. The right woman however, could handle it. They should do alright any time water is involved. As a general rule they have more body fat, and muscle doesn't float. The super big buff guys have a lot harder time becoming a Navy Seal or a Coast Guard diver because of the time they spend in the water. So in one major aspect of those jobs, they have a leg up. Again, we do come back to your argument about upper body strength which eliminates the average woman. The seals stress it pretty heavily, not sure about Coast Guard divers but they probably do as well. However, the average man could not do those jobs either. Only the most exceptional person would make it. A woman who is a fitness nut would have a much better chance than the average Joe. Eventually politics is going to win out. It always does. For example. There are hundreds of arguments against gays in the military. Eventually political pressure won out. Regardless of how you personally feel about it, it's the way it is now. The same will eventually happen with women in all sorts of combat rolls. Hopefully it will be done in a common sense way. No separate tests. No gender norming. They either pass the same tests, or they don't get the job. If they can do the job then it makes sense to let them do it. If they can't, then it doesn't. For the record, I never liked the idea of gender norming the tests. I want to know the person in the fox hole next to me can pull their own weight regardless of gender. I want to know I only have to worry about doing my job and not theirs. If they can do the job...why should you or I stop them? The problem with rigging the tests is they do allow a lot of people to get in that shouldn't be. It is based on the idea they they will be in the rear with the gear anyway. But in today's military, women find themselves in combat all the time. Strictly speaking they shouldn't, but the real world does not work like a text book and there are no safe areas when fighting terrorists. So yes, I agree...the tests should be harder just to get in. That said, plenty of woman could cut it even if the tests were the same. Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-03-2009 at 10:33 AM.. |
#114
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women as delta force? Although you are mostly correct on issues of lower body strength, build, and stamina, elite soldiers are also selected for their demeanor. Women, by nature, are more caring, nurturing, and emotional. Emotions will get you killed out in the field. Its different for female apache pilots who kill green heat signatures on a computer screen, its less personal. Sure, I bet there are some ruthless women out there, I know I'm married to one, but generally speaking I don't think women would make very good commandos.
Last edited by 4thSBCT; 11-03-2009 at 10:55 AM.. |
#115
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Is it true that women who get pregnant are given the option to separate from the Army? I remember a few Recruiters on the official Army forum telling me this little tidbit of info. And it came back up again because a co-worker told me her single niece was tired of being in the Army but still had a few years left in her contract(and no doubt a deployment mixed in there) and was contemplating getting pregnant by her boyfriend just to be discharged in an honorable code. Knowing her, she would have most likely gotten pregnant for the purpose of being separated and then would have either aborted or given the baby up for adoption. That's how serious some people are to get out.......
That's a pretty sweet trump card women hold. |
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#118
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#119
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#120
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So to say they would be doing something "better" than Delta is nuts. There is nothing better than Delta. Just ask them...oh wait...we don't know who they are. :-) My argument is based completely on what I've read. If I met a Delta guy while I was in, I didn't know it. Though it was possible. We deployed with Seals, Special Forces, Rangers, Forced Recon, Various USAF Spec Ops Units, Department of Energy Guys, State Department Guys, and so on all in a support role. Basically waved good buy and said "have fun we'll be here when you get back" - not really but you get the idea. Me not stud - them all super studs. So it's possible somebody in there was Delta. They had no need to tell us who they were or what they were doing there, and we didn't ask. After a while, it became clear some of those training missions were not entirely just about training...but we really didn't care. We had a job. We did it. Of the Spec Ops guys I met I based my opinion of them by how the treated those who worked for them. I wasn't able to see them in action, but I assume they are all pretty much studs on an equal level...just each emphasizing different areas more than others. The Marines were cool to everyone, which surprised me. They are supposed to have an attitude, but they didn't. They were eager to lend a hand and keep themselves busy, so we put them to work. They constantly wanted to stay busy...which was great because we deployed seriously undermanned and every body counts. The various Army units were cool, aside from their Command Sergeant Majors who were complete jerks. They seemed convinced that even though we're in a different service, and on our own Temporary Air Base that we setup we needed to conform to their regulations...regulations our branch of the service did not have. Eventually we started looking for differences in our regs just so we could get away with ticking them off. They fell for it every time, their own men really enjoyed that. After a while I started think they fell for it on purpose, just to give their troops a show to watch. The Seals simply ignored us, aside from their CO who only spoke to us when he needed something. They'd see you could use a hand with something, and they'd sit there and stare at you instead of volunteering to help. If you asked they would ignore you. They'd rather delay their time table then do a job that was beneath them, while the Marines felt no job was beneath them. Most of the time the Seals simply refused to acknowledge anybody outside their unit existed or mattered...unless they needed something. They acted like a bunch of 5 year olds. Seals or not, I called 'em on it with some very choice words...expected to get knocked on my rear and not caring...they just kept on walkin' like they never heard me...good thing too cus I didn't stand a chance. One Seal spent an entire 3 week deployment reading a paperback with Fabio on the cover. He was supposed to be training with the other units, or so those other units told us, he just read that damn book. Everyone called him Fabio from that point on. He ignored them. Needless to say, I was not impressed...and neither was anyone else. I am sure the Seals thought it was pretty funny. Anything to stay entertained. A couple guys I grew up with were Seals, brothers two years apart in age. Kinda jerks as kids, by my jerks so I looked passed it. Now they are Private Security Contractors. They thought the Fabio story was funny as can be, and seemed to think they even knew who that guy was. The ignoring everyone and refusing to lend a hand when it was needed part ticked them off. Said they would never do such a thing, and would much rather stay busy than sit around in the shade. If my rear was on the line…any of them would do! If I’m gonna be stuck in the desert with nothing to do and no one to fight and no one else to talk to…I’ll take the Marines. Those guys were a riot! Last edited by tacticalcity; 11-11-2009 at 3:59 PM.. |
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