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  #41  
Old 12-10-2009, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
actually yes it does.
I disagree. If I were to have instead said "What does it matter if I've served in both Afghanistan and Iraq", would the underlying logic of my argument have changed? I'm trying to point out that the focus of this war is not on finding the enemy and killing him. Indeed, if anything, when it comes to winning in both Afghanistan and Iraq, we seem to have to score victories over ourselves first. We have met the enemy, and he is us, as they say.

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no one really can and more than likely the people have no idea what it means. since you would have to be pretty close to wearer at the time to read it.
Are you going to try to tell me that you can spend your year abroad and guarantee you're not going to get close to the locals?

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why are you so worried about it?
I think it's symptomatic of a larger problem. A problem which is elongating this war, and which as a result is costing us more in blood and treasure than it needs to.

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now my answer is really gonne chap your hide. since i have no idea who you are and my training tells me that i should not share anything regarding OPSEC to you. lets just say i was privaleged enough to work with the best the Army has to offer. and was treated very well. i cannot and will not discuss any missions that i did. PERIOD. take it for what it is. it's not BS even though you may think so since i'm just some random guy on the internet.
OK, you're not seeing what I'm driving at.

Too often people think that "My mission is to escort a convoy from Base A to Base B to deliver fuel" or "My mission is to conduct a cordon/search of this house in order to capture a HVT", or whatever their particular assignment that day happened to be, and think that's the be-all and end-all. If they achieve their task for the day and return home alive, then that's mission complete for them. Unfortunately, there's more to it than that. Ultimately, the mission is not to just get fuel from A to B, or cordon a house, or whatever. It's to win the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. What people seem to keep forgetting is that higher purpose, and they are instead focused on the 25m target, even if it's to the detrement of the larger goal. Yet there is a reason that the intent two levels higher is part of an OpOrder.

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now a challengs question for you since you are so smart. tell me if you know what the militarys' Oxymoron is?
Not a clue. "Military Intelligence" is the first one that comes to mind, though.

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again you are more worried about a patch over the mission that we are doing. offending the enemy is what we should do not kiss their A**. killing them is what we do! let the president bow down to world leaders he seems to be doing a good job of that.
No! Killing the enemy is -NOT- what our focus is. We do it when we can, and it's one means to an end but that's more of a fringe benefit. When has "The enemy has been destroyed" ever been stated as a strategic end state in Afghanistan or Iraq in the last five years? There is a huge difference between 'defeated' and 'destroyed.' Frankly, I doubt we can ever destroy the enemy. We can sure as hell defeat them, though, if we let ourselves do it. We want functioning, friendly(ish), capable governments in Afghanistan and Iraq so we can go home. Killing the enemy is only a small part of this problem, and killing all the enemy is not a requirement.

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and i was never told to remove my signs on my truck since they are not annoying the locals. they are for their safety and they are written in English and Arabic. if you think that the "Stay Back " is annoying then you are way too sensitive for War. stick sitting behind the keyboard and let the fine men and women do their job that we have been doing very well by the way.
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Like every other officer who is attacked by the "good idea fairy"? With all do respect sir, you seem to have the idea of, "because I said so because I am an officer." The rank may make the rules but every joe out there knows that most of the time, the higher ranks bring out bull**** to make it harder on the joes and gives themselves a pat on the back.
The Good Idea Fairy in question attacked Gen McChrystal. They're his instructions, in writing and disseminated to the lowest levels, and I fully agree with them. Now, if either of you fancy emailing him to tell him how fecked up he is, I'm sure his email address is in AKO. Our job is not to be safe. If all we wanted to do was to try to not get killed, we could probably be more successful by never leaving the base, or never even leaving the US.
Quoting FM 3-24, "sometimes the more you protect yourself, the less safe you are." Eventually you need to come down from the high ready.

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mine, as well as Christ and Stockton arnt designed to go give hugs out to the bad guys or local population.
Don't confuse your MOS with your job in theatre. As you've noticed, very few people in the Army seem to be doing what their MOS says they're supposed to be doing. This is what Infantry Branch says your MOS type does:
Quote:
The Infantry closes with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver in order to destroy or capture him or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack.
In what percentage of missions did you perform this task? Is 'partner and train the local national forces' in there? Is there anything about going to a hospital opening ceremony? Handing out candy to kids? Attending village council meetings? Conduct SWEAT-MS assessments? Or any of the other multitide of things that soldiers are doing in the field? You are correct. Your MOS is not designed to give hugs to the local population. Neither is Armor, Artillery, Engineers or MP. Yet that is exactly what the job entails as they're out and about.

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Christ and Stockton says, there are more important things to think about then offending extremists.
I never said anything about offending extremists. Except for one comment in which I said that if captured by an extremist, the wearing or not of a patch probably wouldn't make any difference towards your chances.

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By the arguments you are putting fourth, do you agree that Americans shouldnt engage in Afganistan if bad guys are near villages? That Americans shouldnt have the CAS they need because its not PC and there could be collateral damage?
I am fairly satisfied with the RsOE in Afghanistan as they currently are written. I do have issue, on occasion, with the way they are enforced by proxy, however: People not on site should not try to second-guess whether the person calling for support is following the RsOE as has sometimes happened.

NTM

Last edited by Manic Moran; 12-10-2009 at 11:12 AM..
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  #42  
Old 12-11-2009, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
I disagree. If I were to have instead said "What does it matter if I've served in both Afghanistan and Iraq", would the underlying logic of my argument have changed?
again you have evaded my question as to you ever being in Afghanistan or Iraq. and yes it makes all the difference. since you are the one thinking that not being there makes you more qualified to judge what people are wearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
Are you going to try to tell me that you can spend your year abroad and guarantee you're not going to get close to the locals?
where in my posts have i said i never got close to the locals. in fact i was quite close to them. i know also left some angry Iraqi mothers there too. why? well we gave out tons of candy to the kids.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
I think it's symptomatic of a larger problem. A problem which is elongating this war, and which as a result is costing us more in blood and treasure than it needs to.
oh really and where are your facts backing this up? also this is War and people die. there is only so much you can do to prevent death and injury. the best prepared troops will still sustain casulties. not paying attention is a big factor IMO. i found that paying attention and having an Agressive Posture probably saved my A** a few times.



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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post

OK, you're not seeing what I'm driving at.
ok what is your point? the only thing i see is that you are complaining about a patch and how we look more than anything. so please elighten us and those in Afghanistan serving there allready.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
Too often people think that "My mission is to escort a convoy from Base A to Base B to deliver fuel" or "My mission is to conduct a cordon/search of this house in order to capture a HVT", or whatever their particular assignment that day happened to be, and think that's the be-all and end-all. If they achieve their task for the day and return home alive, then that's mission complete for them.
this part you are right. that is for the day. the mission tasked for the day was completed correctly to the best of the ability of all involved. returning with everyone alive and not injured in a priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post

Unfortunately, there's more to it than that. Ultimately, the mission is not to just get fuel from A to B, or cordon a house, or whatever. It's to win the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. What people seem to keep forgetting is that higher purpose, and they are instead focused on the 25m target, even if it's to the detrement of the larger goal. Yet there is a reason that the intent two levels higher is part of an OpOrder.
i think you are underestimating the Soldiers, Airmen, Marines and Sailors that are serving. they pretty much understand the Big Picture as you call it. i dont know if you seen military personell saying that they don't want to leavve Iraq until the mission is finished. considering all the sacrifice there will be in vain if we leave too early. i feel the same way.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
Not a clue. "Military Intelligence" is the first one that comes to mind, though.
ding ding ding we have a winner. yep it is an Oxymoron allright. and as for the Big Picture i get it more than you relize. i know what it takes just to get a Raid to go through. lots of work for my guys. but in the end when we get what we are after there is nothing more satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
No! Killing the enemy is -NOT- what our focus is.
oh really! i disagree. there are times when we do get engaged and frankley i don't blame them for not directly engaging US forces. it's lose lose situation for them almost everytime. yes there are many aspects to our jobs and killing the SOB's is on the list. i ask what is our focus?

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
We do it when we can, and it's one means to an end but that's more of a fringe benefit. When has "The enemy has been destroyed" ever been stated as a strategic end state in Afghanistan or Iraq in the last five years? There is a huge difference between 'defeated' and 'destroyed.' Frankly, I doubt we can ever destroy the enemy. We can sure as hell defeat them, though, if we let ourselves do it.
Iraq seems pretty quite at the moment US casulties have dropped off as we have turned over most of the operations to the Iraqis i would call that a "stratigic success".

i also agree that we will never be able to destroy the enemy completely but why not oblige them and kill them when we can. they want to die so kill them. yes there will be more of them. oh well. but we cannot withdraw from this. it will only embolden them to continue.


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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
We want functioning, friendly(ish), capable governments in Afghanistan and Iraq so we can go home. Killing the enemy is only a small part of this problem, and killing all the enemy is not a requirement.
this is also true we do want fuctioning governments in these countries. killing the enemy is a part of getting the job done. i have seen what our hard work has done in Iraq and i can tell you our guys and gals have done an outstanding job depsite what the media says about Iraq.

continued in next post.
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  #43  
Old 12-11-2009, 10:27 AM
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from previous post.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
The Good Idea Fairy in question attacked Gen McChrystal. They're his instructions, in writing and disseminated to the lowest levels, and I fully agree with them. Now, if either of you fancy emailing him to tell him how fecked up he is, I'm sure his email address is in AKO.
why would i bother to e-mail the General. his reply would more than likely be why did you not use your chain of command before contacting him. i'm sure you can do that if you wish i doubt you'll get a reply. if you do post it.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
Our job is not to be safe.
i never said it was going to be safe. there is inherit danger in this war. all you can do is try to minimize it and implement controls. ie "Risk Management".

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post

If all we wanted to do was to try to not get killed,
heck i made it a priority not to get killed. no one really sets out to go get killed that day.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
we could probably be more successful by never leaving the base, or never even leaving the US.
that is why we have REMFS and FOBBITS who never risk their lives other than going to the coffee shop or PX. ie E-8 and above or Officers too chicken to leave the wire. they are there. another thing this is where the "Operaional Army" and "Instutional Army" clash. the later has no idea what deployment is like and when they get there and see dirty uniforms and dirty vehicles they freak out and create new rules for vehicle cleanliness. i have seen it done. as for uniforms i understand my point is guys coming off patrol or a several day mission have dirty uniforms and i have seen SGM's deny entry into the DFAC for that reason. that is BS.

.
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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post

Quoting FM 3-24, "sometimes the more you protect yourself, the less safe you are." Eventually you need to come down from the high ready
the book will only do so much. a FM is a guidline on how things supposed to be done. book smarts is in now way better than actual experience; allthough it can enhance experience.


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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
Don't confuse your MOS with your job in theatre. As you've noticed, very few people in the Army seem to be doing what their MOS says they're supposed to be doing.
yeah no kidding i can agree with that. also mostly everyone knows that there is a slim chance you will do your MOS.


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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post

This is what Infantry Branch says your MOS type does:

Quote:
The Infantry closes with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver in order to destroy or capture him or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack.
I never would have known what the Infantry did until you quoted it from the book. wow!!!! in fact everyone in the Army is an Infantryman first. why? when the SHTF that is what you are grab your rifle and engage the enemey and kill them.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
In what percentage of missions did you perform this task? Is 'partner and train the local national forces' in there? Is there anything about going to a hospital opening ceremony? Handing out candy to kids? Attending village council meetings? Conduct SWEAT-MS assessments? Or any of the other multitide of things that soldiers are doing in the field? You are correct. Your MOS is not designed to give hugs to the local population. Neither is Armor, Artillery, Engineers or MP. Yet that is exactly what the job entails as they're out and about.
yep most people found themselves in this very role and the Army at the time was not even trained to do this. now things are different and it's starting to come around.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
I never said anything about offending extremists. Except for one comment in which I said that if captured by an extremist, the wearing or not of a patch probably wouldn't make any difference towards your chances.
yet through this thread you appear to be more worried about this patch above anything else.

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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
I am fairly satisfied with the RsOE in Afghanistan as they currently are written. I do have issue, on occasion, with the way they are enforced by proxy, however: People not on site should not try to second-guess whether the person calling for support is following the RsOE as has sometimes happened.

NTM
don't forget Battalions, Brigades and even at Company level add more BS to the ROE. there is no uniform ROE in Iraq when i was there. our higher kept on adding to it but never ever furnished a copy for us to read. they said "Just Obey it" well i would like to read a few times to understand it and ask questions if needed. i was handed a ROE card in Kuwait and carried with me at all times and that is the ROE i followed. it was in writing and concise.

also have you had to use the current ROE? as you have evaded to answer the basic question i asked before and again in this thread. have you been there or are you there now. OPSEC applies your location in country need not be posted.

i have not seen but heard about the current ROE and it is a disaster. come on cannot call in CAS because you might have collateral damage. yes it happens but where is the priority in that? US personell getting killed instead of civilians. COB's are a problem in the current war we are fighting and they are in any conflict. yes you can minimize them but not eliminate them. if it's between saving US lives and COBs getting killed i prefer the later. also the Taliban and Al-Qaida will use this ROE to their adavantage and it will put US personell at risk.

i also disagree with the general public having access to the ROE if the public can read so can the Taliban or Al-Qaida. it will be exploited at our expense.

again i have not seen nor have any idea where to look it up. post the link since you support it. the ROE is not issued out to everyone in the military.
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  #44  
Old 12-11-2009, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
again you have evaded my question as to you ever being in Afghanistan or Iraq. and yes it makes all the difference.
I believe a position should be able to stand on its own merits, as distinct from the person making it. We're arguing strategy here, not personal experience. But if it is so important to you to know, I'm currently in Afghanistan, and have also done the Iraq jaunt. I'm a 19C.

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since you are the one thinking that not being there makes you more qualified to judge what people are wearing.
Not at all. I'm thinking that being there or not has absolutely nothing to do with qualifications on this topic.

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where in my posts have i said i never got close to the locals. in fact i was quite close to them. i know also left some angry Iraqi mothers there too. why? well we gave out tons of candy to the kids.
Right, so you acknowledge that people will get close enough to see the patch. That was my point on that score.

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oh really and where are your facts backing this up? also this is War and people die.
Go read "Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency in Iraq" by LTC Ahmed Rashim for some blunt comments on the matter. Though if you actually stop and think about it, it doesn't need any support more than common sense. As it is, time and again interviews with some captured insurgents have shown that perceived insult, loss of face, or simply bad treatment was the motivation for fighting the Americans. All of them? Absolutely not. But enough that it's not an outlier, either. And if those captured were pissed off enough to attack us, how many people who might have been favourable towards us did we instead push towards neutrality?

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there is only so much you can do to prevent death and injury. the best prepared troops will still sustain casulties. not paying attention is a big factor IMO. i found that paying attention and having an Agressive Posture probably saved my A** a few times.
Stop thinking so reactively. You are focusing on how to stay alive once someone has decided they want to take a shot at you. Either survive the hit, or look mean enough that they think better of the idea. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Purely kinetic. I propound an additional position: Your actions can also reduce the amount of times that people will want take a crack at you to begin with. Absolutely you have to stay alert, as some of the opposition are going to have a crack at you no matter how you act, but for every local national who thinks Americans don't respect them, that's one more local national who will not care for you, will not call in tips or who may aid the opposition who -do- decide to action on you. Why make it easier for the opposition?

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ok what is your point? the only thing i see is that you are complaining about a patch and how we look more than anything. so please elighten us and those in Afghanistan serving there allready.
How you look and act is everything. The "Strategic Corporal," how the course of a war such as this one is changed by the actions not of generals and colonels, but the people who are actually on the front lines at the lowest echelons. It doesn't matter if you think something is or is not inconsequential, what does matter is what the locals think is or is not inconsequential.

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i think you are underestimating the Soldiers, Airmen, Marines and Sailors that are serving. they pretty much understand the Big Picture as you call it. i dont know if you seen military personell saying that they don't want to leavve Iraq until the mission is finished. considering all the sacrifice there will be in vain if we leave too early. i feel the same way.
I am in no way questioning anyone's motivation to see the job done. I am questioning the level of understanding on how best to get the job done. On a personal level, I think most soldiers have figured it out, even if they don't like it. Unfortunately, it just takes a small amount to have disproportionate weight to counter it.

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i know what it takes just to get a Raid to go through. lots of work for my guys. but in the end when we get what we are after there is nothing more satisfying.
I fully agree. It's tangible. You have actively done something, and you have something concrete to show for it. And, as Gen Mathis said, shooting bad guys is fun. But capturing and/or killing people is not going to win you this war. What will win you the war will often provide you no tangible results that you can come back to the base that day and reflect upon, but is no less important for that fact. (That said, the most satisfying day I had in Iraq didn't see me shooting anyone at all: It was seeing all the crowds of Iraqis waving and displaying their purple fingers to us)

Quote:
oh really! i disagree. there are times when we do get engaged and frankley i don't blame them for not directly engaging US forces. it's lose lose situation for them almost everytime. yes there are many aspects to our jobs and killing the SOB's is on the list. i ask what is our focus?
Obtaining a functioning host nation government which is accepted by the people as working in their own best interests.

We can keep killing Taliban or Al Qaeda until the cows come home, but until the Afghan government is capable of actually running the country (and that means everything, the security services, healthcare, infrastructure, legal system) and is accepted by the population as their government, we won't be mission successful. The same in Iraq. I'm sure that there are more people the US military could find to kill, but our departure is not predicated on body counts or statements of surrender from the enemy.

Quote:
Iraq seems pretty quite at the moment US casulties have dropped off as we have turned over most of the operations to the Iraqis i would call that a "stratigic success".
So would I. But ask yourself if we really couldn't have done it quicker and with less blood shed on all sides. The extreme example is, of course, Abu Ghraib. How many people did those idiots incite to fight against the Americans? The same principles still apply at the smaller levels.

(Cont)

Last edited by Manic Moran; 12-11-2009 at 11:53 AM..
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:39 AM
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i also agree that we will never be able to destroy the enemy completely but why not oblige them and kill them when we can. they want to die so kill them. yes there will be more of them. oh well. but we cannot withdraw from this. it will only embolden them to continue.
Again, missing the woods for the trees. Some people just need killing. But the less support they get, the easier it is for us to kill them, the fewer there are that need killing, and the safer we all get.

Quote:
why would i bother to e-mail the General. his reply would more than likely be why did you not use your chain of command before contacting him. i'm sure you can do that if you wish i doubt you'll get a reply. if you do post it
I'm not the one claiming it's a bad idea to be a little less aggressive. Of course, the suggestion of emailing him is hyperbolic, but you'd likely have to have some gall to say that he's flat out wrong or doesn't understand counter-insurgency.

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all you can do is try to minimize it and implement controls. ie "Risk Management".
It's like having a car accident: ABS, seat belts, airbags, they're all the equivalent of force protection measures. How to stay alive once bad things start to happen. But other things you can do will help as well, such as getting some sleep before you drive. If there's an accident, it's easy to say 'He was kept alive because he wore his seat belt.' It's fairly empirical. You can never point to the fact that 'he took a nap before he drove' and claim that it's the reason he's still alive. Avoiding un-necessarily pissing people off or offending them is simply another factor in risk management.

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as for uniforms i understand my point is guys coming off patrol or a several day mission have dirty uniforms and i have seen SGM's deny entry into the DFAC for that reason. that is BS.
Been there. We ended up compromising on take-away meals.

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a FM is a guidline on how things supposed to be done.
Agreed. But thus far, your arguments have not been indicative of following the FM even to guideline levels.

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yet through this thread you appear to be more worried about this patch above anything else.
It's a case in point. I'm more worried about servicemen being more concerned about their morale than about the impression they're giving to the locals. It could be the crusader patch. It could be a patch which says 'Screw Mohammed'. Go to Youtube, look for a video called 'driving in Iraq', wherin a guy in a HMMWV rams multiple vehicles off the road. (A road I'm familiar with, as it happens). There's another video of a soldier yelling pidgin arabic with a bullhorn as the imam is giving a call to prayer in the mosque and laughing about how funny he is. Great laughs, but things which are, to put it mildly, counter-productive.

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i have not seen but heard about the current ROE and it is a disaster
They're a little overstated. They're not that bad.

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if it's between saving US lives and COBs getting killed i prefer the later. also the Taliban and Al-Qaida will use this ROE to their adavantage and it will put US personell at risk.
As you have noted, we are in the business of taking risks. COBs are not in the business of taking risks, and by the way, they're also the objective. We cannot win a counter-insurgency without winning the population. We will not win many members of the population if we keep killing them. An American may be saved today because we dropped a bomb which killed five bad guys and five innocents, but we suffer a PR setback which extends the war for a few more days instead, putting Americans at risk for longer.

NTM
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:18 PM
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I have the patch and T-Shirt. The patch stays out of site but I have been known to wear the shirt to home depot and the range once or twice.
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Old 12-11-2009, 1:28 PM
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You should not wear this particular patch when leaving the wire, for obvious reasons. To me, this is common sense. I am not saying you cannot wear it, but Murphy's Law applies. Any responsible squad/section leader would tell you to take this off during PCC's and PCI's.

As hard as it is to accept, the way to win these conflicts in the Middle East is not through direct combat and strength of arms, but through politics and public relations. As an infantryman, I know it sucks.

Last edited by Grassninja; 12-11-2009 at 1:31 PM..
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Old 12-13-2009, 9:06 PM
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Yes, the BIG picture is with hearts and minds through politics and public relations. Gain trust and respect of the local pop. This will definitely and does provide great intel. Even if they don't want us there...well we're there anyways so why not get the votes swing. If you're position falls within that then leave the patch alone.

For those who exit the wire daily to embrace the suck by drawing fire....well...enjoy the patch. Nothing like standing over haji bleeding out so he can see that a pork eating crusader sent him to allah. Politics and bullets....not a good combination. Never has been. Usually if the politics don't work then the bullets speak. Keep your politics...I'll share my bullets, patches, and my pork instead.

Those of us who care not what we look like to the enemy are probably not helping the political drive. Those depending on the political aspect on to winning the war...you're not helping us when the bullets fly by *****ing about what we wear to the party.

How about a patch that just show a picture without words? Compromise maybe?
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