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  #281  
Old 05-30-2018, 8:35 PM
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So glad to see this thread was resurrected, I hadn't heard of this. No words can describe what QuarterBoreGunner did...saving his life and those of his co-workers, as well as most likely preventing a large mass shooting. Kudos to you sir, it's certainly a better world with you in it. Thanks for sharing.

This conversation about .45/shot placement, etc. reminded me of this story from 2013 - https://www.policeone.com/police-her...mo-on-the-job/.

There are a lot of lessons learned from incidents like those mentioned here.
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  #282  
Old 03-29-2019, 8:53 AM
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***BUMP***

This thread is definitely worth bumping from time to time and a VERY good read and first hand account of a Calgunner involved in a shooting.

Aside from the caliber wars contained within, there are 2 Calgunners who were there that night. No spoiler alerts so...

Be safe all.
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  #283  
Old 03-29-2019, 8:58 AM
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Rugerdaddy,

It's a massive logical fallacy to posit the illusion of invalidating a rule by citing a purported exception to it.

We'd have to read the police report to gain info upon which we can base a valid conclusion.

I can cite many, many accounts of suspects taking lots of 9MM rounds w/o indication of injury. They mean nothing w/o specifics.
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  #284  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
Rugerdaddy,

It's a massive logical fallacy to posit the illusion of invalidating a rule by citing a purported exception to it.

We'd have to read the police report to gain info upon which we can base a valid conclusion.

I can cite many, many accounts of suspects taking lots of 9MM rounds w/o indication of injury. They mean nothing w/o specifics.
Huh???
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  #285  
Old 03-29-2019, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefcrash View Post
it's not unheard of. I've read stories of skydivers hitting the ground 'cause their chute didn't open and survive. sometimes the body can do crazy things...
Flatly incorrect. Being in the sport for several decades, this urban myth shows up every now and then.

Try this: Get in the bed of a pickup (that can go 120 mph) and jump out into a brick wall. Now, tell me how you survived it.

Dan
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  #286  
Old 03-29-2019, 5:32 PM
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Glad this was bumped. Great thread. I hadn't read it before.

As far as shootings go, this one was very typical. Total of 6 shots exchanged. 4 on one side, 2 for the other. Two hits, one center of mass hit. Those people who said he should have shot him in the head are not being realistic. Any hit is better than missing - which is what most shots do. The effects of those shots is really a crapshoot.

Not surprised that the bullet didn't expand. It passed between the ribs and through lung tissue which is mostly air. Not sure is this reflects badly on the bullet (in this case). KE doesn't wound people much, but it does expand bullets. There has to be some resistance for the bullet to dump energy and decelerate the bullet. Ballistic gel is meant to simulate muscle tissue (which is mostly water) and is close to ideal to cause bullet expansion. It still did enough damage to destroy 2/3 of one lung. I'd say the bullet did it's job.

The size of the hole you make is of course very important. It's why people use HP ammo in first place. The bigger the hole the more likely you are to hit something important - especially linear structures like the major blood vessels. A 50% expanded 9mm is still not a lot bigger than an unexpanded .45. A 50% expanded .45 is huge - like musket ball sized. I am willing to believe that the net effectiveness of a 9mm vs a .45 is comparable since there are other factors such as recoil, mag cap, etc. But on a per hole basis it makes no sense to me that a 9mm can compete.
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  #287  
Old 03-29-2019, 5:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Flatly incorrect. Being in the sport for several decades, this urban myth shows up every now and then.

Try this: Get in the bed of a pickup (that can go 120 mph) and jump out into a brick wall. Now, tell me how you survived it.

Dan
I can see how someone could still survive. The unopened chute can still provide drag and slow someone down enough to survive. Just searched YT for a video of a guy who did. I don't want to detract too much from this thread by posting, but it can/does happen given a certain set of circumstances.
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  #288  
Old 03-29-2019, 5:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
I can see how someone could still survive. The unopened chute can still provide drag and slow someone down enough to survive. Just searched YT for a video of a guy who did. I don't want to detract too much from this thread by posting, but it can/does happen given a certain set of circumstances.


This is different (don't want to hijack but need to clarify). A partially opened chute can decelerate enough to potentially survive (many extenuating circumstances contribute to this).

An unopened chute means becoming one with the earth at 120mph.

Dan
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  #289  
Old 03-29-2019, 6:18 PM
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Hickock45 does a test with different calibers and loadings seeing how fast they knock the plates around his dueling tree. The 45 was pretty impressive.

People say there is no such thing as 'knock down power'. But anyone who believes in physics believes in momentum, e.g. as revealed by the dueling tree. There is a bigger percentage change difference between 230 and 124 (45 and 9mm bullet weight), compared to 850 and 1200 (45 and 9mm velocity).

Momentum, not energy, knocks the plates around the tree (elementary physics).
Momentum is Mass x Velocity. Neither M nor V is more important than the other for momentum.

Killing power is directly related to energy (not momentum). But the impact to sock the plates around hard and fast is directly related to momentum (not energy). It may not be 'knock down power' but it is going to be very important to the question of stopping an assailant's assault quickly. (As opposed to killing an opponent. For that, energy is king).

Hickock's test: the 147 gr > 124gr > 115gr in the ability of 9mm loads to knock the plates around quickly. Energy might be similar for all these loads. But the momentum to spin the plates was not similar at all. The 147 gr loads moved the plates impressively! Because the projectiles weighed more.
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  #290  
Old 03-30-2019, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darto View Post
Hickock45 does a test with different calibers and loadings seeing how fast they knock the plates around his dueling tree. The 45 was pretty impressive.

People say there is no such thing as 'knock down power'. But anyone who believes in physics believes in momentum, e.g. as revealed by the dueling tree. There is a bigger percentage change difference between 230 and 124 (45 and 9mm bullet weight), compared to 850 and 1200 (45 and 9mm velocity).

Momentum, not energy, knocks the plates around the tree (elementary physics).
Momentum is Mass x Velocity. Neither M nor V is more important than the other for momentum.

Killing power is directly related to energy (not momentum). But the impact to sock the plates around hard and fast is directly related to momentum (not energy). It may not be 'knock down power' but it is going to be very important to the question of stopping an assailant's assault quickly. (As opposed to killing an opponent. For that, energy is king).

Hickock's test: the 147 gr > 124gr > 115gr in the ability of 9mm loads to knock the plates around quickly. Energy might be similar for all these loads. But the momentum to spin the plates was not similar at all. The 147 gr loads moved the plates impressively! Because the projectiles weighed more.
Thanks for posting this! I've seen most of Hickok's videos and you can easily see the difference between 9mm and 45 smackin' the steel!

It's buried somewhere a few pages back, but the paramedic who worked on the perp (a Calgunner) mentioned that the first shot to the chest was on the wrong side to cause extreme blood loss. If it had been on the correct side, the perp would've bled out and most likely may not have survived the ride to the hospital.
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  #291  
Old 03-30-2019, 1:34 PM
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Better be lucky then good...
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  #292  
Old 03-30-2019, 9:35 PM
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I’ve read quarterboregunner’s story a few times over the years and it still makes my heart race a little. Heroic story that one.


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  #293  
Old 03-31-2019, 6:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NapaCountyShooter View Post
I’ve read quarterboregunner’s story a few times over the years and it still makes my heart race a little. Heroic story that one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup! I subscribed to this and a handful of other ones so I can periodically go back and reread them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpage View Post
Better be lucky then good...

As they say, you can’t count on luck, but luck counts.



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  #294  
Old 03-31-2019, 8:36 AM
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Police statistics show that, on average, one of seven shots fired actually strike the target. And that it takes approximately 3.5 strikes to incapacitate a target. Combine the two... That's why you need to carry at least 25 rounds of ammunition per target.

Thankfully we now have the legal means (we always had the right, just that CA didn't agree and they have the jails) to carry larger capacity magazines so we can reach that level of safety which DC v Heller guarantees.
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  #295  
Old 03-31-2019, 5:47 PM
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If QBG had a gun in 45 GAP n not 45 ACP. The bad guy would have die from the first bullet.




It’s. Joke. I tell people about this story all the time n they call BS. The whole is nuts. Don’t remember if QBG answered this but do you still have the gun used to stop the ahole.
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  #296  
Old 03-31-2019, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisDSA View Post
If QBG had a gun in 45 GAP n not 45 ACP. The bad guy would have die from the first bullet.

It’s. Joke. I tell people about this story all the time n they call BS. The whole is nuts. Don’t remember if QBG answered this but do you still have the gun used to stop the ahole.
He answered about this a few pages back. But, his gun was taken into evidence for several years until all of the appeal process ran out. The DA mentioned that he wanted to be sure that the scumbag went away. He did get his gun back though.
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  #297  
Old 03-31-2019, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
He answered about this a few pages back. But, his gun was taken into evidence for several years until all of the appeal process ran out. The DA mentioned that he wanted to be sure that the scumbag went away. He did get his gun back though.
just seen it. Printing out the story now. Missed it the first time.
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  #298  
Old 03-31-2019, 6:43 PM
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Story should be a sticky if QGB is ok with it. It’s a good thing I looked over it again. If my head I swore he used a G36
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  #299  
Old 03-31-2019, 7:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Flatly incorrect. Being in the sport for several decades, this urban myth shows up every now and then.

Try this: Get in the bed of a pickup (that can go 120 mph) and jump out into a brick wall. Now, tell me how you survived it.

Dan
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...t-fall-3699030

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/j...iled-parachute

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...icle-1.1291265
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  #300  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:50 AM
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Getting back on topic. This happened 20 years ago in July.
Here’s a link to the article.
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...lf-2920923.php

Interesting to read some of the details again and not have to weed thru the usual OT bickering.
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  #301  
Old 05-18-2019, 11:05 AM
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And he has aprox. 28 more years to go. He *might* make it.

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  #302  
Old 05-18-2019, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
And he has aprox. 28 more years to go. He *might* make it.





Awesome to see you QBG!!! I just reread your account (Post #24 &26) for probably the third or fourth time. Kudos to you. I’m glad everything worked out the way it did for you and that you, ‘Mary’ and ‘Bob’ are alive today.

Q: Where is that G30 today? Display case? Lol!
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  #303  
Old 05-18-2019, 8:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darto View Post
Hickock45 does a test with different calibers and loadings seeing how fast they knock the plates around his dueling tree. The 45 was pretty impressive.

People say there is no such thing as 'knock down power'. But anyone who believes in physics believes in momentum, e.g. as revealed by the dueling tree. There is a bigger percentage change difference between 230 and 124 (45 and 9mm bullet weight), compared to 850 and 1200 (45 and 9mm velocity).

Momentum, not energy, knocks the plates around the tree (elementary physics).
Momentum is Mass x Velocity. Neither M nor V is more important than the other for momentum.

Killing power is directly related to energy (not momentum). But the impact to sock the plates around hard and fast is directly related to momentum (not energy). It may not be 'knock down power' but it is going to be very important to the question of stopping an assailant's assault quickly. (As opposed to killing an opponent. For that, energy is king).

Hickock's test: the 147 gr > 124gr > 115gr in the ability of 9mm loads to knock the plates around quickly. Energy might be similar for all these loads. But the momentum to spin the plates was not similar at all. The 147 gr loads moved the plates impressively! Because the projectiles weighed more.
But don't forget - the plates are steel and absorb 100% of the bullet's energy whereas the body is soft and - as mentioned the lungs are mostly air - so if you shoot the thorax and don't hit a rib, heart, or aorta, the bullet is in and out and probably (I would think) doesn't leave a lot of KE or P (P=MV as you mentioned) in the body. Rather all that KE and P leaves with the bullet.
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Old 05-18-2019, 8:53 PM
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Default There is no mystry here.

Obviously the Bad Guy never read anything about the stopping power of a .45acp in Guns & Ammo
and didn't know he was suppose to immediately die after being shot a few times.
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  #305  
Old 05-18-2019, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darto View Post
Hickock45 does a test with different calibers and loadings seeing how fast they knock the plates around his dueling tree. The 45 was pretty impressive.

People say there is no such thing as 'knock down power'. But anyone who believes in physics believes in momentum, e.g. as revealed by the dueling tree. There is a bigger percentage change difference between 230 and 124 (45 and 9mm bullet weight), compared to 850 and 1200 (45 and 9mm velocity).

Momentum, not energy, knocks the plates around the tree (elementary physics).
Momentum is Mass x Velocity. Neither M nor V is more important than the other for momentum.

Killing power is directly related to energy (not momentum). But the impact to sock the plates around hard and fast is directly related to momentum (not energy). It may not be 'knock down power' but it is going to be very important to the question of stopping an assailant's assault quickly. (As opposed to killing an opponent. For that, energy is king).

Hickock's test: the 147 gr > 124gr > 115gr in the ability of 9mm loads to knock the plates around quickly. Energy might be similar for all these loads. But the momentum to spin the plates was not similar at all. The 147 gr loads moved the plates impressively! Because the projectiles weighed more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
But don't forget - the plates are steel and absorb 100% of the bullet's energy whereas the body is soft and - as mentioned the lungs are mostly air - so if you shoot the thorax and don't hit a rib, heart, or aorta, the bullet is in and out and probably (I would think) doesn't leave a lot of KE or P (P=MV as you mentioned) in the body. Rather all that KE and P leaves with the bullet.
Or...


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  #306  
Old 05-18-2019, 9:37 PM
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Riveting. Glad QBG, good guys came out on top.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:15 PM
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Wow. Thanks.
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  #308  
Old 05-19-2019, 1:36 AM
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Default 14x .45ACP 230gr JHP to fell a felon on PCP

A colleague of mine had an incident, while working security, where his life was threatened by an individual on PCP.

He was carrying a 1911 with a 15 round magazine (illegally but lawfully) in California. He had to draw his pistol and shoot the individual. All shots were center mass. The individual finally stopped coming at him and fell to the ground after the FOURTH shot to the heart. They couldn't easily identify the guy's heart on autopsy.

Now my colleague was arrested and had to go to court. He was found not guilty of all offences.

The expert witness stated that, had he been carrying a 10 round magazine, and had to change magazines, my colleague would have probably been killed by the assailant, just due to the time it takes to change a magazine.

My colleague had ONE round left in his firearm when the guy dropped.

Because of this expert testimony, my colleague was found not guilty of all charges and got, after some effort with a less-than-happy SD police department, his firearm back and the offending magazine.

So, yes, there are circumstances where an individual may survive multiple shots of a .45ACP.

However, I don't think it'd be the same if you shot a guy with these:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=117372
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  #309  
Old 05-19-2019, 2:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Flatly incorrect. Being in the sport for several decades, this urban myth shows up every now and then.

Try this: Get in the bed of a pickup (that can go 120 mph) and jump out into a brick wall. Now, tell me how you survived it.

Dan
This guy fell 3500 feet and lived, 23 years after he jumped on 2 Japanese hand grenades and lived.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/lucas.html
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  #310  
Old 05-19-2019, 7:45 AM
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All partially deployed which can be survivable.

I don't want to hijack this anymore, this is not the main subject of the post.

Dan
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  #311  
Old 05-19-2019, 9:15 AM
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Ballistically, the takeaway here when using compact and subcompact .45s is the posted info:

Quote:
QBG

...the overriding opinion is that the Glock 30's short barrel (3 ¾) is insufficient in length for that heavy round to get up to the speed needed for reliable expansion (I've since switched to Speer Gold Dot 200grn +P jacket hollow point).

My light weight go-to .45 is a 3" Kimber Ultra CDP II stoked with .45 HST. I'm going to change that ammo to a 200 grain +P jhp when I can find it locally. (Los Angeles).

As for the rest of that night, I doubt if many here could have handled things any better.
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:30 AM
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This is exactly why I carry my M&P m2.0 9mm or My STI Staccato “P” w/ 17+1 of federal HST 147gr. +1 spare 27 round mag.
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:43 AM
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Shot in the chest several times with 45 acp and living to tell the tale is unlikely. However, like many other annomallys strange things do happen...

Hollywood would be a good example.
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
This is exactly why I carry my M&P m2.0 9mm or My STI Staccato “P” w/ 17+1 of federal HST 147gr. +1 spare 27 round mag.

Because having 45 rounds of 9mm is great if you plan on missing a lot. Or is it because of 9mm... I forget. But I digress...

(Oh, come on. I'm kidding. )


I wanted to add to the discussion (too late!) the Dixie Gun & Pawn robbery attempt a couple of years ago. Store owner dropped the gun-wielding perp (who got one round off but was interrupted in the process) with one center mass hit. It was a good one.

I don't know any specifics other than the gun used appeared to be a Gov't-sized 1911.
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:56 AM
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Intense event, interesting read...thx for posting and God bless QBG
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Old 05-19-2019, 9:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
Because having 45 rounds of 9mm is great if you plan on missing a lot. Or is it because of 9mm... I forget. But I digress...

(Oh, come on. I'm kidding. )


I wanted to add to the discussion (too late!) the Dixie Gun & Pawn robbery attempt a couple of years ago. Store owner dropped the gun-wielding perp (who got one round off but was interrupted in the process) with one center mass hit. It was a good one.

I don't know any specifics other than the gun used appeared to be a Gov't-sized 1911.
Here's the raw video of that incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54_Qz2f0540

Here's the breakdown on the ASP channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFU5ehObC0
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Old 05-19-2019, 1:33 PM
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I'm not sure that said anything new. The knockdown power of any shot bullet is exactly the same as the recoil felt by the shooter. The article just says that the only to incapacitate someone immediately is through destroying the CNS (head shot or upper spine) which is very difficult and cannot be relied upon. The next best would be to bleed him out but that can take a long time.
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Old 05-19-2019, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergmen View Post
Flatly incorrect. Being in the sport for several decades, this urban myth shows up every now and then.

Try this: Get in the bed of a pickup (that can go 120 mph) and jump out into a brick wall. Now, tell me how you survived it.

Dan
I don't think any of the survivors landed on brick walls.
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Old 05-19-2019, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
I'm not sure that said anything new. The knockdown power of any shot bullet is exactly the same as the recoil felt by the shooter.
It said don’t get too wrapped up in “energy” or “momentum” and that “knockdown power” is a myth.

Penetration matters a lot, placement matters a lot. If you can get some extra expansion, great.

However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
The article just says that the only to incapacitate someone immediately is through destroying the CNS (head shot or upper spine) which is very difficult and cannot be relied upon. The next best would be to bleed him out but that can take a long time.
...keep in mind that handguns suck.

— Michael
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Old 05-19-2019, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious View Post
As a slight thread hijack, doesn't this suggest that we might be better off loading .45 FMJ for self defense?

Costs less to practice with your 'serious' ammo, assuredly better feeding reliability in 1911s, no worries about what will expand or not or whatever, you know that the onus is on you to place your shots where they will work and not hope for miraculous expansion to do the job?

Let the flames begin
I would only use fmj in a 1911 due to its feed mechanics for defensive use. Crappy anecdote from me, my colt would have occasional double feed jams until i bought mil-spec tapered feed lip magazines by check-mate and it hasn't jammed once with them. Issue being, these magazines will not feed hollowpoint ammo. But are designed to work well with only ball ammo. Conversely, most magazines are designed to work with a wide variety of ammo, but at least on my gun, would fail to do so with absolutely certainty.
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