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  #201  
Old 05-17-2014, 6:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
Armchair quarterback away; I did the best I could under the circumstances.
Four shots, two hits, first one right on target.

I'll call that a win.
So would I! It's easy to say what we would do in a situation, but real life has a way of throwing in all sorts of curve balls. Here's a nicely done youtube video and recounting of another encounter where things didn't go quite according to his training. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gP8W37c-Y

Be safe.
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  #202  
Old 05-17-2014, 6:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
Armchair quarterback away; I did the best I could under the circumstances.
Four shots, two hits, first one right on target.

I'll call that a win.
I agree sir. I have been a lawman of the 'sheepdog' persuasion since 1981. Very well indeed sir.
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  #203  
Old 05-17-2014, 7:10 PM
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I'm a first time reader thanks for posting this, and thanks to the calgun folks keeping it alive.
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  #204  
Old 05-18-2014, 2:14 PM
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It is pretty unlikely anyone would survive that in my experience with GSWs.
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  #205  
Old 05-18-2014, 3:01 PM
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I have to read this story over and over. Tagged.
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  #206  
Old 05-18-2014, 6:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheExiled View Post
So that some guys who haven't read it could do so. There have been several threads related to his and SD shootings lately where QBG's story is relevant
I agree - I hadn't seen this before. Thanks to whoever reposted.
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  #207  
Old 05-18-2014, 6:31 PM
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Awesome post regarding the defensive gun use shooting in Santa Clara. In my trips to Front Sight, they throw the Bay Area under the bus quite frequently in their examples.

A buddy of mine worked homicide for a major law enforcement agency in Southern California for many years. I asked him one time how many shoots by the public were justified. His response was the vast majority of shootings by the public are justified. The only thing you have to do is fear for your safety and it's game over for the bad guy (yes, even in California).

As far as the civil suit goes, I would presume the $5000 was a nuisance settlement and although people don't like it, it makes the plaintiff go away. Most of the time there are stipulations that the plaintiff must make regarding no future action, no admission of wrong doing by the defendant, etc.

Considering court costs, legal fees etc, it's probably a bargain for the defendant.
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  #208  
Old 05-18-2014, 6:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diverwcw View Post
Awesome post regarding the defensive gun use shooting in Santa Clara. In my trips to Front Sight, they throw the Bay Area under the bus quite frequently in their examples.

A buddy of mine worked homicide for a major law enforcement agency in Southern California for many years. I asked him one time how many shoots by the public were justified. His response was the vast majority of shootings by the public are justified. The only thing you have to do is fear for your safety and it's game over for the bad guy (yes, even in California).

As far as the civil suit goes, I would presume the $5000 was a nuisance settlement and although people don't like it, it makes the plaintiff go away. Most of the time there are stipulations that the plaintiff must make regarding no future action, no admission of wrong doing by the defendant, etc.

Considering court costs, legal fees etc, it's probably a bargain for the defendant.
How does Front Sight throw the Bay Area under the bus? I was there just a few weeks ago and don't recall anything. (Probably just not connecting the dots).
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  #209  
Old 05-18-2014, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
How does Front Sight throw the Bay Area under the bus? I was there just a few weeks ago and don't recall anything. (Probably just not connecting the dots).
I've been through their lectures several times. I think they are pretty well scripted but there is a part when they talk about the defensive use of a handgun, they ask a general question, which city would you rather be in if you were involved in a shooting situation, Amarillo, Texas or San Franscisco, California? And the class usually yells out, "Texas!"

The last time I was there, at the outset they were selling tickets for a drawing for a 1911 which was, of course, not California compliant. The guy giving the sales pitch, Brad Ackman (the number 2 man in the organization), made a statement, "You guys from California elected a bunch of people to office that came up with a list......" He kind of spit out, "You guys..." At the end of the course I sent in an evaluation and slammed him for it, naming him by name. Supposedly, Dr. Piazza, takes very fast and remedial action on ANY bad feedback. Maybe they've revamped it.
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  #210  
Old 05-18-2014, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diverwcw View Post
I've been through their lectures several times. I think they are pretty well scripted but there is a part when they talk about the defensive use of a handgun, they ask a general question, which city would you rather be in if you were involved in a shooting situation, Amarillo, Texas or San Franscisco, California? And the class usually yells out, "Texas!"

The last time I was there, at the outset they were selling tickets for a drawing for a 1911 which was, of course, not California compliant. The guy giving the sales pitch, Brad Ackman (the number 2 man in the organization), made a statement, "You guys from California elected a bunch of people to office that came up with a list......" He kind of spit out, "You guys..." At the end of the course I sent in an evaluation and slammed him for it, naming him by name. Supposedly, Dr. Piazza, takes very fast and remedial action on ANY bad feedback. Maybe they've revamped it.
Oh! Yeah, I remember that part! And yes, CA sure does have a reputation!!! I would hardly call that rolling the Bay Area under the bus though. In any event, I think it's pretty accurate that CA is pretty anti-gun.

One thing about FS is that they are quite consistent in their teaching/lectures etc.

Happy shooting and be safe!
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  #211  
Old 05-19-2014, 6:12 AM
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We had a bar shooting up here about 4 or 5 years back where the suspect shot the victim 10 times all in the torso with a .40. It was crappy fmj range ammo and the shot placement wasn't in center mass more like a scattering of GSW's all over the torso but I remember being really surprised the guy lived.
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  #212  
Old 05-19-2014, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
Armchair quarterback away; I did the best I could under the circumstances.
Four shots, two hits, first one right on target.

I'll call that a win.
If I am ever unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation, I hope I can muster up half of what you did.....

I am gonna say you did great!!

thanks again for giving us your experience!!
.
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  #213  
Old 05-19-2014, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
Armchair quarterback away; I did the best I could under the circumstances.
Four shots, two hits, first one right on target.

I'll call that a win.
You saved three lives on scene and probably more at the night club. Yeah that is clearly a win.
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  #214  
Old 05-19-2014, 8:56 PM
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Remarkable story along with a better ending, thanks for sharing. Reeds is range I shoot at and have walked through that alley. Crazy.
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  #215  
Old 05-19-2014, 9:54 PM
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Great read. Glad it is still being bumped. My hat is off to you QBG.
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  #216  
Old 05-19-2014, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Che762x39 View Post
It is a very good read. QBG and Sniper on a job well done.

50% is about training and preparing, the other 50% is up to a Higher Authority to give the bad guy a thumbs up or thumbs down.
I had to go back and read QBG's story, previously I had just read the OP and skimmed the last page.

Yeah, that is a job well done. mighty fine shooting by QBG, and some very fast and logical decision making. I hope I never find myself in a situation like that one, but if I do I hope I could react as appropriately as he did.
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  #217  
Old 05-20-2014, 12:24 AM
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This just gave me chills.....

I just happened to go and shoot at this gun range today and stood at the wall looking at safes where he made them stand by the front door. What a trip.

Glad to hear the good guys won this one.
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  #218  
Old 05-20-2014, 2:26 AM
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this is a must read for everyone
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  #219  
Old 05-20-2014, 7:34 PM
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I nominate this thread to be a sticky. Its really a great read
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  #220  
Old 05-20-2014, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
its only a handgun.
I remember some statistic that 80% of gun shot victims survive. I remember when Tattoo (RIP) from Fantasy Island shot himself in the chest with his .45 he lived long enough to call his relatives and say goodbye before he bled out. He lived for quite awhile, I think his family didn't know what he was going on about.

Anyway, rifles were really meant to kill. Handguns only work if you get a shot in the brain or heart.
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  #221  
Old 05-21-2014, 1:56 AM
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I had heard this story a few times in passing from locals around here, but this is the first time I have read QBG (and sniper5) first hand accounts.


Glad the good guys prevailed and we have a story to learn from. This is definitely a thread that deserves necro treatment on a regular basis!
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  #222  
Old 05-21-2014, 6:11 AM
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Finally read QBG's account. This thread gives me much to ponder upon.

Props to QBG and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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  #223  
Old 05-21-2014, 7:59 AM
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Arrow incident in Skokie, IL

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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
There was an incident in Skokie Illinois some years back. A cop armed with a Glock 21 shot it out against a wanted scumbag with a 9mm at close range. Classic nightmare case of bad guy stopping and exiting the driver's seat shooting.

Once the smoke cleared the bad guy had fourteen .45 ACP holes in him. It took 3 aimed shots from the cop to the scumbag's skull to end the fight-at which point he only had 3 rounds left in his last magazine.

Afterwards, the officer in question switched to a 9mm duty pistol. The relevant moral of the story, is that the number of occasions you shoot your gun in practice is more valuable then the number written on the side of the gun itself.
I think this is a repost, and someone actually pasted the text of this article into this thread somewhere, but I recently ran into this story and I think it's the same one referenced above:

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

14 holes (.45acp) before the dude went down... people can be more resilient/stubborn than shown in the movies...
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  #224  
Old 05-21-2014, 10:01 AM
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Amazing account from QBG, well done.

A few things that this situation made me think about...

1- How all the training seemed to take over... eye opening..

2- QBG'rs reasoning in regards to CC while on duty in LGS/indoor range, Something about all the LGS employees I see displaying OC while on duty never did make sense to me...

3- While questionable in regard to perp, would a "buddy system" as a policy for rentals at ranges possibly help to discourage wouldbe deranged or suicidle ppl...

Once again. QBG...well done.
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  #225  
Old 05-21-2014, 11:01 AM
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Well done QBG!!!
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  #226  
Old 05-21-2014, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
its only a handgun.
^ This. You don't get truly devastating terminal ballistics until you step up into rifle calibers. Especially 6.8/.308 and above
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  #227  
Old 05-21-2014, 1:20 PM
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Thanks for posting this incredible story. Glad you and everyone else are okay. Great job QBG! You're a hero in my book!
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  #228  
Old 05-21-2014, 3:06 PM
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I just spent a lot of time reading this thread and I just wanted to say "Thank you" QBG for saving all those people. You are a legit hero in my book, sir.
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  #229  
Old 08-28-2014, 2:48 PM
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This is quite an amazing account. Many others have said it already, but thank you to QBG and Sniper5 for your willingness to share! This has really served as a reminder to me, that we all must be prepared and to train, train, train! Also, the actions and also important afterthoughts have taught us all about how a shooter scenario may play out. Glad you all had the chance to reconnect after all this time as well!

Take care!
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  #230  
Old 08-28-2014, 3:31 PM
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Wow... Amazing story...you are a ****ing hero sir
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  #231  
Old 08-28-2014, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
I was notified a couple months ago that Stevens was moved to Arizona.
30 more years before possibility of parole. I'll be 75, he'll be 65 (if he makes it, that's a long time in the joint). And I'll have my robot nurse wheel my head in a jar forward so I can say to the parole hearing board: "Nope, I'm still kind of pissed off. Put him back."

I got you ****er.

Did you get your gun back. Sorry if I missed it
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  #232  
Old 08-28-2014, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
Yeah well I was more concerned with saving my and the other people with me collective butts.

In the weeks after I went back and forth over how I felt about him living. By all rights he should have died. Bleed out, defibrillated twice in the bus on the way to the trauma center; I heard later from one of the SCPD detectives that rode with him and was in the ER while they were working on him. A ER doc said to him "look at his (Steven's) feet, see how yellow they are, this guy has no blood left in him and he's very likely going to die." Well, he didn't. Hurray for modern medicine.
I'm ok with him living I guess. Don't have to deal with all the baggage associated with taking a life. It's all good to posture and play internet tough guy, but when the rubber hits the road it's all different. Knowing you're in the right and that you did what you did to survive doesn't change the immensity of actually shooting another human being (I'm being generous I know, Steven's is/was a scum bag.) It does make you much more aware of all the practice, all the dry fire, all the controlled doubles and perforated silhouettes, it's all for real and yeah, someday you may actually have to do the deed.

Whatever; he's in the joint for a heck of a long time, and if, sometime in 2049, he is up for a parole hearing, I'll have the grandkids, the great grandkids and the robot nanny push my hover chair into the court and I'll do my best to convince the board that this SOB should not be let out.
What a story. Well written too. I'm sure you've heard it before, but good job my friend. It's not often one bumps into someone that can truly be called a hero but my gut tells me that I have met one today.
And it's always nice to bump into internet gun fans that are level headed, honest, and value human life. I get so weary of the internet tough guy persona/verbiage and to hear you be honest about the feelings you had about the perp not dying is refreshing.
All the best.
S
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  #233  
Old 08-28-2014, 5:40 PM
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The overpenetration thing is a mix between myth and self flattery. Most shots fired in a gunfight miss. Worrying that your perfect torso shot is going to over penetrate and be the one that hits a "bystander" when you're missing most shots and making lots of glancing hits is next to rediculous. If you're such a good shot that you always hit point of aim, then the difference between FMJ and JHP is moot for wounding.

I don't believe that JHPs cut blood vessels better when expanded. An expanded JHP is blunt, and it crushes tissue, it doesn't cut. Same for FMJ, just that a JHP crushes a bigger diameter of tissue to a shallower depth.

.45 FMJ is not a big overpenetration risk, from what I've read. It doesn't penetrate nearly as much as 9mm FMJ in gel, and the skin on the opposite side of the entry wound is very elastic and will do a lot to slow down and stop a large, blunt projectile that has already lost most of its energy.

JHPs are neat, but they're not a panacea. They work a bit better in thoraic cavity shots, if they expand, because they make a bigger hole and transfer energy a bit quicker to give that "oomph" feeling to a baddy. A JHP doesn't do dink for poor shot placement, which is 90% of the problem. "Fixing" a gun for JHP reliability is also an expensive and time consuming proposition when .45 FMJ does a decent job.

.45 FMJ worked well enough in a number of wars.
Agree 1000%.

There is no magic bullet for pistols and hollow points are a safety feature. It's even covered in Urey's FBI report. There are only two things that incapacitate an assailant. A hit to the central nervous system, or a dramatic drop in blood pressure from blood loss. The first is achieved with shot placement. The second is achieved with more holes. Larger holes don't mean anything. There have been people who have suffered multiple hits from shotgun slugs who were still able to fight, and slugs leave much larger holes than any standard service caliber pistol ever will.

People need to stop worrying about ammo and start working on shooting. The obsession with defensive ammo is similar to the concept of choosing a perfect gun rather than taking some really good gunfighting classes.
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  #234  
Old 08-28-2014, 8:24 PM
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The thread that would not die.
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  #235  
Old 08-28-2014, 9:50 PM
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Awesome detailed story... I was robbed by two large fellas a few weeks ago.. I ll tell you things happen fast..really fast. I have a ccw but basically after a year of carrying and a whole lifetime of never really being in a truly dangerous situation i stopped carrying a few weeks before... Luckily all they did was take about $70 in cash and left but it got me interested in ccw'ing again.. But the onething i noticed was a tuff and intimidating they tried to appear they re were a few times i could tell they were nervous and a bit scared/uncertain themselves.. Just saying training and a cool head goes a long way when facing a retarded street thug..don't forget they re probably scared at that moment also... Unless if you were like the guy i this situation and ready to die..
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  #236  
Old 08-28-2014, 10:26 PM
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people have been shot in the head and survived. however the desired results were attained - the threat was stopped.
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  #237  
Old 08-29-2014, 12:23 AM
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Gnome Gnome is offline
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Fellas,

As an LEO in an "inner city" station, I have seen and responded to a LOT of shootings. Bad guy on bad guy and good guy on bad guy. I can say that the human body is capable of some amazing things!

Trauma surgeons truly believe in the "Golden hour." Seen it myself. Seen a dirt bag "10 ringed" and survive. Aortas knicked and survived. Recent gang member was shot FIFTEEN times and survived.

All calibers. We even had a suspect shot with a .223 in the forehead. Guess what? He lived. Ricocheted off his dome.

As a result, I'm not a big believer in .45 is a man stopper. Or all about the ten ring. I tend to believe in spreading the damage. Multiple organ failure is harder to fix than a knocked aorta or liver.

Just my 2 pennies. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
During Y2K my neighbor and I were talking and he said he had a basement full of water and canned food. He asked if I had stocked up and I said that I had. I told him I bought a 12 guage shotgun, a .308 rifle and several bricks of .22 ammo.

He is an anti-gun guy and he said. "Well, you can't eat ammunition". I replied with "When I'm starving to death with a case of ammunition, who's door do you think I am going to knock on?"

Last edited by Gnome; 08-29-2014 at 12:24 AM.. Reason: Spelling
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  #238  
Old 08-29-2014, 7:21 AM
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Trout_fear_me Trout_fear_me is offline
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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Fellas,

As an LEO in an "inner city" station, I have seen and responded to a LOT of shootings. Bad guy on bad guy and good guy on bad guy. I can say that the human body is capable of some amazing things!

Trauma surgeons truly believe in the "Golden hour." Seen it myself. Seen a dirt bag "10 ringed" and survive. Aortas knicked and survived. Recent gang member was shot FIFTEEN times and survived.

All calibers. We even had a suspect shot with a .223 in the forehead. Guess what? He lived. Ricocheted off his dome.

As a result, I'm not a big believer in .45 is a man stopper. Or all about the ten ring. I tend to believe in spreading the damage. Multiple organ failure is harder to fix than a knocked aorta or liver.

Just my 2 pennies. YMMV.
Yeah that's what I learned in the CCW training as well. Spread your shot placement around the chest cavity to create 2 or more wound tracks.

Two well placed double taps with a 9mm are just as effective as a .45 any day.
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  #239  
Old 08-29-2014, 7:33 AM
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chairmnofthboard chairmnofthboard is offline
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A friend of mine was shot in the face (cheek) with a .45 at close range and lived. It was a tough recovery, but he made it.
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  #240  
Old 08-29-2014, 7:45 AM
Libtard Libtard is offline
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Awesome detailed story... I was robbed by two large fellas a few weeks ago.. I ll tell you things happen fast..really fast. I have a ccw but basically after a year of carrying and a whole lifetime of never really being in a truly dangerous situation i stopped carrying a few weeks before... Luckily all they did was take about $70 in cash and left but it got me interested in ccw'ing again.. But the onething i noticed was a tuff and intimidating they tried to appear they re were a few times i could tell they were nervous and a bit scared/uncertain themselves.. Just saying training and a cool head goes a long way when facing a retarded street thug..don't forget they re probably scared at that moment also... Unless if you were like the guy i this situation and ready to die..
To take my Libtard point of view... maybe it's better that they got away with $70 than you had to deal with going through the aftermath of shooting and maybe killing two guys. Maybe, if they were so nervous about it, they'll see the stupidity of their ways. It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that risking your life or years on prison for a lousy seventy bucks just isn't worth it. And these days, so many people use credit/debit cards that they often have no cash at all in their wallets.

Curious -- thinking through what happened, would you really prefer to have killed them both and seen them screaming on the sidewalk dying? Not trying to mess with you -- I also own a weapon to defend my home -- but it's a lot easier to talk about using guns than to go through with it. And I do understand that you can't know what street robbers will do. Those two guys will either stop, or they'll wind up dead or jailed. You just can't keep doing stuff like that for your whole life.

Now I'll go duck and cover, because I know that most of you guys hate my Libtard points of view.
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