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  #161  
Old 07-26-2013, 1:09 AM
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Both of you!, QBG and Sniper, are inspirations for different reasons. QBG for your courage and Sniper for your professionalism. I've been smacked in the face with the idea that I'm nowhere near being well trained enough to handle a situation like yours. I have some serious work to do.

Glad to know that all involved parties are ok and the bad guy gets to sit in prison, tortured by his abject failure.

This thread is the best I've ever read on CG.
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  #162  
Old 07-26-2013, 6:43 AM
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I was notified a couple months ago that Stevens was moved to Arizona.
30 more years before possibility of parole. I'll be 75, he'll be 65 (if he makes it, that's a long time in the joint). And I'll have my robot nurse wheel my head in a jar forward so I can say to the parole hearing board: "Nope, I'm still kind of pissed off. Put him back."

I got you ****er.

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  #163  
Old 07-26-2013, 8:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
I know of a case that the suspect was shot 10+ times in chest and like 8 times in the face
State got to pay for reconstructive surgery on his face
Shot with a .22LR?
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  #164  
Old 07-26-2013, 8:10 AM
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Nope, not 22, two cops (glock 22) shooting at a gangbanger, (3rd striker if i recall) came out of car shooting.
this is multiple shots from two angles, at a distance of a car length
State ended up having to pay to fix his face, so he could go to prison
I'll see if I can find any stories on it
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  #165  
Old 07-26-2013, 10:33 AM
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First time I hear of this amazing story. Mad respect for QuarterBoreGunner for having the courage to remain calm and save the lives of his fellow employees and countless club patrons. Kinda reminds me of when I was robbed at gunpoint several years ago. Fortunately he just took the cash from the register and left. Its amazing to hear two different perspectives on the same incident and then for the two people to hook up again on calguns.
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  #166  
Old 07-26-2013, 10:46 AM
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QBC do you ever hear from "mary" or "bob?"
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  #167  
Old 07-26-2013, 10:54 AM
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Tagged so I can read this since the last time. QBG, I have a whole lot of respect for you and your actions. It is easy for people to say how they are going to react, but to actually be prepared and act is a completely different thing. My hat is off to you. I am glad you were there to stop what could have been a real tragedy.
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  #168  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:35 AM
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Shot placement.
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  #169  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:57 AM
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+1 on Shot placement, but even then you can't be sure: War Vet Survives being Shot through the heart and I've shot animals in the heart when hunting only to have them run off. I've even had a coyote run for over a hundred yards with his heart outside his chest.
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  #170  
Old 07-26-2013, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper5 View Post
This thread never dies. It seems to have taken on a life of it's own.
QFT, but I still re-read the story every time this thread pops up.

Always a good read and glad both QBG and sniper5 are still around.
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  #171  
Old 07-27-2013, 7:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerdaddy View Post
From a 1999 article about an incident in Santa Clara........



Does anyone remember this incident? Is it true that this guy was hit in the chest several times with a .45 and still survived? Or, is this another of many cases where the press gets a story completely screwed up?
"3 to the pump and 2 to the bean" has officially replaced the old failure drill of "2 the chest and 1 to the head," aka "El Presidente."

As someone else said, "It's only a handgun."

It pokes a hole.

If it does not poke a hole in the right thing on the target, the target lives.

Got it?
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  #172  
Old 07-27-2013, 8:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timbob55 View Post
Shot placement.
Like Tyson said " Everyone has a plan, till they get punched in the face". Expert level shooters unload a full magazine at a suspect from point blank range & hit nothing but air in real life situations.
Saw an article on a guy that had 1/4 of his head blown off. Literally he was missing the top left side of his head & he was still alive. Then are the one's that die of an infected hangnail.
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  #173  
Old 07-27-2013, 8:15 AM
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QBG, if I ever say something worthy of a ban, I hope it's by you, cuz I'll know I deserve it
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  #174  
Old 07-27-2013, 8:53 AM
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A friend of mine was shot 9 times with a 45 FMJ within two feet away and walk out Martin Luther King hospital 6 days later. This was is
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  #175  
Old 07-27-2013, 9:31 AM
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an officer in our town was shot once with a 25acp above his vest and was killed, so you never know.
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  #176  
Old 07-27-2013, 10:53 AM
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even after all these years this thread is still epic.
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  #177  
Old 02-16-2014, 8:06 PM
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"Well, did he cum or not?"

I am wondering did the bar or it's people know about this?
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  #178  
Old 05-15-2014, 8:23 PM
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Long time lurker, first time poster. Actually I joined just to say... "wow." I've thought about myself in similar situations (really, any gun owner should, right?) and I could only hope to have QBG's clarity of mind and reflexes. I read the whole thread from top to bottom.
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  #179  
Old 05-16-2014, 5:43 AM
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Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty


Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”

He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.

Expert Analysis

Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant
By Charles Remsberg

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:

1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”

2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

Continue reading Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant
At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.

An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.

Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my *** when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.

He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.

Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.

The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”

With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.

“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.

The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.

“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”

Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.

A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.

The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.

Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.

Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.

Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.

“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.

In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.

But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.

“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.

At least one alteration was emphatically practical.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”
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  #180  
Old 05-16-2014, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
A blast from the past.

There were 4 shots total; 2 hits. 1st round was a clean COM direct hit on the bad guys left nipple. Round failed to expand; mushroomed only slightly and exited the body through the left shoulder blade. Round was recovered from the parking lot where this all went down.

2nd round impacted inside the badguy's right wrist causing him to drop the Colt Sporter he had, the round traveled up the inside of the arm flaying open the muscle tissue exposing bone and then exited vie the back of the upper arm just past the elbow.

Still creeps me out. Man that was messy.
that is gnarly.
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  #181  
Old 05-16-2014, 6:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious View Post
Ugh, carjackings.

There's a rant and a half.

Everyone getting carjacked has a two ton hammer at their disposal. Failure to use it consitutes either very bad luck (getting carjacked while in a traffic jam?!) or very bad judgement (somehow you're safer outside of the car than inside it?!).

People talk about stopping power. Let me tell you that no .45 or 12 guage or anything like that will stop someone quite as well as a car crushing their body. If they get out of the way, you drive off, and then they're not carjacking you anymore.

Diddnt stop my friend Quinn from getting shot by some a holes in Oakland. His two ton "weapon" did little good for him. He is missed every day.

https://community.cccyo.org/camp-alu...mo-quinn-boyer

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_230395...lling-san-jose
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  #182  
Old 05-16-2014, 8:02 AM
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Damn, just sitting at a stop light. Those pile of ****s Need to be hung
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  #183  
Old 05-16-2014, 11:24 AM
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Wow, the original post on this thread is from 2007, it's been ressurected several times (and rightly so, it's an amazing read ... the story I mean, not the arguments about caliber).

Maybe if I post in this thread I'll be immortal!

I hadn't noticed the dates and actually was going to say "Wow, after 15 years the police chalk is still there?"
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  #184  
Old 05-16-2014, 12:10 PM
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The Third(3rd) round should be to the head.

Jeff Cooper’s Mozambique Drill

Quote:
CHORUS:
Mozambique him, Mozambique him, If he fails to hit the ground - After two well-placed rounds!
Shoot between the eyes and lips, No, NOT between the hips, That should put the goblin down!

VERSE:
With your sights on center chest Twice your trigger you have pressed.
If two don't stop the fight - A head-shot should set it right!
.
.
.





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  #185  
Old 05-16-2014, 12:25 PM
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I love this thread and have shown it to many people but I just wanted to add to the OP, in the academy we studied cases where a suspect under the influence of PCP and/or other narcs was shot up to a dozen times and still managed to run over a hundred yards before ultimately "running out of oil" from all the GSW's
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  #186  
Old 05-16-2014, 12:25 PM
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Glad this thread has been resurrected, my respect to QBG for his incredible judgement and for keeping his cool in a situation that no one should ever have to experience. Props to sniper as well for his unique perspective in addition to his professionalism.
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  #187  
Old 05-16-2014, 1:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
The Third(3rd) round should be to the head.
I'll try to remember this the next time it happens.
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  #188  
Old 05-16-2014, 1:48 PM
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HIPPAA disclaimer:
The following should not be considered factual and in no way happened in real life. The fiction presented is for education and items have been altered to allow for discussion and reflection.



I was finishing my paperwork outside of an emergency room when a flight crew off loaded a conscious alert "person". They had been shot 6 times (5 in chest) including a head shot (above an eye unk if cranial vault was compromised it was bandaged). They were sitting up alert with a chest tube to suction chatting with crew as they wheeled him along. When they came out I asked what he had been shot with and was informed it had been a
.40.

I responded to and transported somebody who took a .45 to the head which did open the cranial vault. Whenever their phone rang they reached into their pocket pulled out the ringing phone. I'd tell them to out it away that they were busy and they put it back in the pocket.

If I had seen that with my own eyes it would have been really freaky.
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  #189  
Old 05-16-2014, 5:19 PM
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interesting read for sure!
.
.
tnx
.
.
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  #190  
Old 05-16-2014, 5:50 PM
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Well, if I do something stupid and get perma-banned here, I won't ask for trial by combat with QuarterBoreGunner.
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  #191  
Old 05-16-2014, 7:10 PM
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Wow, amazing story. Here is another anonymous internet guy giving you props QuarterBoreGunner for keeping a level head and doing what had to be done. And props to sniper5 for being a professional and managing to keep that scumbag alive so he can rot in prison.
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Old 05-16-2014, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner View Post
I'll try to remember this the next time it happens.
If you train that way, you won't have to.




EDIT:

Found your event description back in the thread. Yikes!

Good on ya.




Caselaw
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Last edited by Bad Caselaw; 05-16-2014 at 11:11 PM..
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  #193  
Old 05-17-2014, 12:12 AM
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why are we necroposting this thread?
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  #194  
Old 05-17-2014, 2:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Caselaw View Post
If you train that way, you won't have to.




EDIT:

Found your event description back in the thread. Yikes!

Good on ya.




Caselaw

Nice armchair quarterbacking there...






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Old 05-17-2014, 4:12 AM
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Just re-read this thread from the beginning including the various links to other posts, news articles.

Very sobering and very informative. Thanks to QBG and Sniper for their first-hand recounting of the story.

Train, train and train some more. Be prepared. Be safe.
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  #196  
Old 05-17-2014, 4:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmybacon43 View Post
why are we necroposting this thread?
It is a very good read. QBG and Sniper on a job well done.

50% is about training and preparing, the other 50% is up to a Higher Authority to give the bad guy a thumbs up or thumbs down.
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Old 05-17-2014, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freq18Hz View Post
Nice armchair quarterbacking there...
Just sage advice from a notable expert, Col. Jeff Cooper.




As for ACQ? While QuarterBoreGunner did an outstanding job in a very difficult situation, and produced a satisfactory result? He was also extremely lucky.

He has mentioned that he has resolved the ammo issue. Mozambique Drill training would also improve the odds the next time.




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  #198  
Old 05-17-2014, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmybacon43 View Post
why are we necroposting this thread?
So that some guys who haven't read it could do so. There have been several threads related to his and SD shootings lately where QBG's story is relevant
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Old 05-17-2014, 12:24 PM
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QBG, you're a credit to this forum.
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  #200  
Old 05-17-2014, 5:44 PM
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Armchair quarterback away; I did the best I could under the circumstances.
Four shots, two hits, first one right on target.

I'll call that a win.
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