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  #41  
Old 01-17-2007, 7:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_sfca
Yeah, but only after she was deputized as a U.S. Marshal so that she can carry anywhere.

Yup, I know she tried to get deputized so she could carry on airlines. But I don't know if that ever happened.
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  #42  
Old 01-17-2007, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
its only a handgun.
+1000
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  #43  
Old 01-18-2007, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laabstract
this is why you aim for the head.
25 years ago +/- a friend of my father's had a break in at his home and ended up shooting the guy with one of his shotguns, injuring but not killing him. When the officers arrived, they stated to him that he should have killed him as there would be less paperwork, and he wouldn't have to deal with a civil lawsuit from the would-be burglar. Interesting that the sentiment hasn't really changed regarding civil suits from folks that screw up when trying to take your property/life and not succeeding. I second some legislature that prohibits would be attackers shot during the commission of their crime from suing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laabstract
This was at the old National Shooting Club, now Reed's Range.

There was some firsthand info posted here quite a while back. One of the employees received a rare Santa Clara carry permit after this, in the truly convoluted LEO logic that you need a carry permit more *after* you've been threatened with a gun...
One of the employees at Reeds told me this story when I inquired about his shotgun shell carrier in addition to a pistol and extra mags about 6 months ago. I was glad then that the innocents weren't harmed and after reading the complete account am really glad now that QBG saved his fellow employees from what could have been an ugly outcome.
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  #44  
Old 01-18-2007, 8:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franksremote
25 years ago +/- a friend of my father's had a break in at his home and ended up shooting the guy with one of his shotguns, injuring but not killing him. When the officers arrived, they stated to him that he should have killed him as there would be less paperwork, and he wouldn't have to deal with a civil lawsuit from the would-be burglar. Interesting that the sentiment hasn't really changed regarding civil suits from folks that screw up when trying to take your property/life and not succeeding. I second some legislature that prohibits would be attackers shot during the commission of their crime from suing.
I wonder what shotgun load that was. 00 or 1 buck to center of mass should almost certainly be fatal. The odds are good of hitting something important.

Birdshot, or slug perhaps?
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  #45  
Old 01-18-2007, 8:18 AM
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Quote:
they stated to him that he should have killed him as there would be less paperwork
Yeah well I was more concerned with saving my and the other people with me collective butts.

In the weeks after I went back and forth over how I felt about him living. By all rights he should have died. Bleed out, defibrillated twice in the bus on the way to the trauma center; I heard later from one of the SCPD detectives that rode with him and was in the ER while they were working on him. A ER doc said to him "look at his (Steven's) feet, see how yellow they are, this guy has no blood left in him and he's very likely going to die." Well, he didn't. Hurray for modern medicine.
I'm ok with him living I guess. Don't have to deal with all the baggage associated with taking a life. It's all good to posture and play internet tough guy, but when the rubber hits the road it's all different. Knowing you're in the right and that you did what you did to survive doesn't change the immensity of actually shooting another human being (I'm being generous I know, Steven's is/was a scum bag.) It does make you much more aware of all the practice, all the dry fire, all the controlled doubles and perforated silhouettes, it's all for real and yeah, someday you may actually have to do the deed.

Whatever; he's in the joint for a heck of a long time, and if, sometime in 2049, he is up for a parole hearing, I'll have the grandkids, the great grandkids and the robot nanny push my hover chair into the court and I'll do my best to convince the board that this SOB should not be let out.
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  #46  
Old 01-18-2007, 8:51 AM
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Quote:
It's all good to posture and play internet tough guy, but when the rubber hits the road it's all different.
I was not second guessing nor implying that killing him was the better thing to do. If it was read that way, you have my apologies.

Quote:
I wonder what shotgun load that was. 00 or 1 buck to center of mass should almost certainly be fatal. The odds are good of hitting something important.

Birdshot, or slug perhaps?
Dunno, it was a long time ago and at the time I wasn't old enough to know/ask. Knowing what I do now, the guess would be bird. He had tons of guns (he was an avid hunter and shooter), and I'm tempted to say that it wasn't his HD weapon, just the first one he grabbed when he entered the garage.
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  #47  
Old 01-18-2007, 8:57 AM
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I guess this explains why workers at gunstores pack big time!
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  #48  
Old 01-18-2007, 9:04 AM
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I was not second guessing nor implying that killing him was the better thing to do. If it was read that way, you have my apologies.
Oh no offense taken! I wasn't really responding to your post at all. But I've read so many posts online from various forums after the shooting, about how I should have done this or how I should have done that, that I should have engaged Steven's earlier or how I should have killed him. And all I can say is that heaven forbid anyone else ever have to be in that situation, but if they are, I'd like to think that I'll never second guess them or do any Chairborne Commando after action review. I did what I did and thankfully got out of it ok.

So no harm no foul.
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  #49  
Old 01-18-2007, 11:09 AM
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QBG, that's the first time I've heard that story. Wow! Sounds like you made the right decisions every step of the way...
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  #50  
Old 01-18-2007, 11:57 AM
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+1 Good story with some great life lessons.
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  #51  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:00 PM
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I started this thread because after reading the original article I found on line, I was concerned about my plans to use my .45 for home defense. The article said the BG was shot "several" times in the chest. He was, in fact, shot ONCE in the chest- so the press, as is often the case, got it wrong.

I think I can continue to depend on my .45, though I believe I should think about my ammo. I have always loaded it for home defense with the same round I shoot at the range- whatever was cheapest. I'm thinking that maybe I should find an effective SD round for my Ruger P90, then practice with that round regularly, and keep one magazine with that round only in the gun when stored for home defense.

Just my thoughts.
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  #52  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:17 PM
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SD round?

90% of "stopping power" is putting something, anything, into an important area.

Hardball to a major blood vessel beats a fancy expanded round to a lung any day of the week - especially in .45, which is a big, heavy round already.
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  #53  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner
Funny thing, when I was last there (at Reed's) about 6 months ago, the neighbor whose cement wall fronts on the parking lot, still hadn't painted since the shooting. So my two rounds that missed the badguy impacted and turned to fragments there. So if you walk straight out the door from Reed's and veer slightly left then look down on the wall low near the asphalt, you'll see the two impact marks and the yellow chalk outline from the PD investigation around them.
I was just at Reed's last night and as I walked back to my car I saw the 2 impact marks. Kinda weird after you read the story and then walk right over where it happened.
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  #54  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious
If you don't hit a major blood vessel (heart, arteries, major veins), there's no reason the target will die quickly.

Lungs are nothing special really, you're just making it hard for them to breathe. If you're hitting outside the thorax you're doing superficial damage.
100% correct. A simple pneumothorax or (collapsed lung) isnt always immediately life threatening only once it a tension pneumo develops. I have seen several people shot most all with small caliber but I have also ran a call where a store clerk was shot with a .45 3x in the chest and once in the arm. All three shots were through and through. And I was very surprised how calm he was (since he was just shot 3x in the chest) with little to no signs of shock, vitals were stable and remained that way through the duration of my care. Also this guys lung sounds were good the whole time and I theorize that because he was overweight I think his chest was sealed by his fat.

Disclaimer im not a doctor just a reason me and partner came up with to explain the lack of a pneumo with significant penetrating trauma to the chest.
And like Aluisious said unless you hit a major vessel or part of the CNS there’s not a lot of chance of the person shot to drop dead.
And from what I have seen so far in my career leads me to believe 1 of 2 (1things everything is random "luck or the draw" or (2 nothing is random "when its your time its your time" I prefer to believe the later
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  #55  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious
SD round?

90% of "stopping power" is putting something, anything, into an important area.

Hardball to a major blood vessel beats a fancy expanded round to a lung any day of the week - especially in .45, which is a big, heavy round already.
Remember though, the guy would have bled out if the hostiptal wasn't right around the corner. If QuarterBoreGunner had waited another 10 minutes to make the call or say for example one of the other employees was in shock and couldn't make the call, the guy would have been dead.

Apparently the sun, moon, planets and stars were all aligned that day and Stevens caught a lucky break. (Or unlucky if he really wanted to die and didn't want to spend 2/3 of his life in prison.)
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  #56  
Old 01-18-2007, 1:19 PM
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Glad QBG came out alright in that encounter and saved two more lives in the process! The only sour taste in my mouth is the $5000 given the bad guy to placate him. Really doesn't make sense to me! Why are these trash even given a chance to sue?

Ninja45
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  #57  
Old 01-18-2007, 2:51 PM
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90% of "stopping power" is putting something, anything, into an important area
Absolutely correct; my first hit was just about perfect but not the fight stopper I would have liked; the second hit was messy and put his right arm out of commission, but if I had missed with that shot AND he had the balls/mindset to continue the fight, he very well could have shot me and the others.
Remember even after a round to the chest (nipple!) he got off two rounds (wildly off target thank god) and then managed to run about 60 feet before collapsing.
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  #58  
Old 01-18-2007, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN
Remember though, the guy would have bled out if the hostiptal wasn't right around the corner. If QuarterBoreGunner had waited another 10 minutes to make the call or say for example one of the other employees was in shock and couldn't make the call, the guy would have been dead.

Apparently the sun, moon, planets and stars were all aligned that day and Stevens caught a lucky break. (Or unlucky if he really wanted to die and didn't want to spend 2/3 of his life in prison.)
Right. He was hit in the lung, ran a distance, fell down, protested, resisted arrest, and was saved in the hospital some time later.

If he had been shot through the heart, he would have lost consciousness in a few seconds due to loss of blood pressure, and probably died in less than a minute.
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  #59  
Old 01-18-2007, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarterBoreGunner
Absolutely correct; my first hit was just about perfect but not the fight stopper I would have liked; the second hit was messy and put his right arm out of commission, but if I had missed with that shot AND he had the balls/mindset to continue the fight, he very well could have shot me and the others.
Remember even after a round to the chest (nipple!) he got off two rounds (wildly off target thank god) and then managed to run about 60 feet before collapsing.
Your second shot was fortunate, and you all were lucky as you say that he was a puss and gave up.

For every good story like yours, there's one where the bad guy is wounded, even fatally, and proceeds to kill his target.

Only a brain or spine shot will stop someone immediately, guaranteed. A heart/major blood vessel shot will stop them in less than 10 seconds, guaranteed. Anything else is rolling the dice on their mental state: whether they decide to give up or keep going. He had another arm, after all, he could have tried to use that.
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  #60  
Old 01-19-2007, 12:18 AM
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This is news to me.

QBG, I don't care about what anyone else tells you. You did what you felt was necessary and were successful. End of story as far as I'm concerned.
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  #61  
Old 01-19-2007, 1:46 AM
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QBC, thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I'm amazed at how coolheaded you were in your decision-making and actions. I can only hope that, God forbid, should I ever be in that kind of situation, I'd carry myself as well as you did.
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  #62  
Old 01-19-2007, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwestfall
Spin/turn to the inside of the gun, knocking it outward with offside forearm, while drawing gun with strong hand and "zippering" the hostile with multiple shots travelling upwards via the weapon recoil.

You can't draw against a drawn gun (especially from behind you) without combatives.
Oh, OK.

I don't carry, but practiced martial arts for a time. Aikido has a strong emphasis on turning inside of the attack. I'd turn inside, grab his gun hand, and start punching/gouging/strangling with my other hand.
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  #63  
Old 01-19-2007, 9:55 AM
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The trick to pulling this off is to not telegraph/anounce that you are going to do it. You have to practice so you don't pull your shoulder back or do something else that gives away what is coming.
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  #64  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_brit_05
The trick to pulling this off is to not telegraph/anounce that you are going to do it. You have to practice so you don't pull your shoulder back or do something else that gives away what is coming.
The trick is getting a carry permit! Most of wouldn't need this technique unless we were standing there firing at a target at the range, 'cause that's the only time the law allows us to carry a loaded weapon! And most BGs wouldn't try to rob a person at the range with a loaded gun in their hand!

In summary, in CA we are not allowed to defend ourselves from gun carrying criminals. We ARE allowed to defend ourselves from dangerous paper targets!
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  #65  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerdaddy
The trick is getting a carry permit! Most of wouldn't need this technique unless we were standing there firing at a target at the range, 'cause that's the only time the law allows us to carry a loaded weapon! And most BGs wouldn't try to rob a person at the range with a loaded gun in their hand!

In summary, in CA we are not allowed to defend ourselves from gun carrying criminals. We ARE allowed to defend ourselves from dangerous paper targets!
You are not allowed to defend yourself with a firearm in a public place.

You are allowed to defend yourself.

IMO, someone who is helpless without a gun isn't much better off with a gun.
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  #66  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious
You are not allowed to defend yourself with a firearm in a public place.

You are allowed to defend yourself.

IMO, someone who is helpless without a gun isn't much better off with a gun.
IMO, cute, but silly. Of course one is better off with a gun. I studied martial arts, also. It's great, but no match for a gun.
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  #67  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious
You are not allowed to defend yourself with a firearm in a public place.
As treelogger said, nonsense. I'll add the prefix 'absolute' nonsense.

100% of the time you are allowed to use force up to & including lethal force in defense of life/limb. (Not your stereo or car or for shooing away trespassers, though.)

Even if you illegally had the firearm (i.e, illegal CCW), 99+% of the the time those charges go away in a good shoot (legit defense of life/limb, legit fear of loss of life/limb) as the good shoot nullifies CCW charge.

In fact CA law is (surprisingly!) better in than in other states about use of lethal force.

Quote:
IMO, someone who is helpless without a gun isn't much better off with a gun.
That's what the Bradyites' and Million Mommies' propaganda says. You've just regurgitated it.
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  #68  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treelogger
Incorrect. You are allowed to carry (concealed or open) at your residence, and at your place of business (assuming your employer agrees). That is, unless you are prohibited from having guns in the first place (felon etc.)


Nonsense.
My guess is that most armed robberies occur outside the home, and most people who are subjected to an attempted armed robbery/crime are in a situation (other than the ones you describe) where in CA they are NOT allowed to carry. Only in my home, and only employees? What percentage of potential crime targets is that? Very, very small. One example would be the woman in Texas some years ago that was not legally allowed to carry her pistol into the restaurant where she was dining with her parents. The gunman entered, killed her parents and many others, and no one could stop him. This is an extreme example, but coincides with my belief that gun crimes in CA are committed against more people who are NOT legally allowed to carry, than those who are. Examples: ATM robberies, car jackings, armed street muggings, etc., cases where people are NOT "allowed to defend themselves from gun carrying criminals". If anyone has stats to prove otherwise, please prove me wrong.
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  #69  
Old 01-19-2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese
As treelogger said, nonsense. I'll add the prefix 'absolute' nonsense.

100% of the time you are allowed to use force up to & including lethal force in defense of life/limb. (Not your stereo or car or for shooing away trespassers, though.)

Even if you illegally had the firearm (i.e, illegal CCW), 99+% of the the time those charges go away in a good shoot (legit defense of life/limb, legit fear of loss of life/limb) as the good shoot nullifies CCW charge.

In fact CA law is (surprisingly!) better in than in other states about use of lethal force.



That's what the Bradyites' and Million Mommies' propaganda says. You've just regurgitated it.
Ah fun, a good dig by Bill. Haven't had one in a while.

I stand by my comments. You are practically not allowed to defend yourself in public with a firearm. It is illegal to carry (for most of us), and thus to shoot in public, you have already been breaking a law to do so. You don't like that analysis, tough.

I don't care what some brady bunch or moms say. If you're a sobbing mess crying "help me oh help me" without your gun, you're a helpless fool and no gun will likely save you. If you can't fight without a gun, you can't fight with a gun.

If you can fight without a gun, you can fight a hell of a lot better with one.

Slow down on the post button there. You might have more time to form a relevant argument.
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  #70  
Old 01-19-2007, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerdaddy
IMO, cute, but silly. Of course one is better off with a gun. I studied martial arts, also. It's great, but no match for a gun.
You're missing the point.

If the combative/defensive mindset is not in the shooter, the gun won't do anything special by itself. Being able to shoot is not the same as being able to fight.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugerdaddy
My guess is that most armed robberies occur outside the home, and most people who are subjected to an attempted armed robbery/crime are in a situation (other than the ones you describe) where in CA they are NOT allowed to carry. Only in my home, and only employees? What percentage of potential crime targets is that? Very, very small. One example would be the woman in Texas some years ago that was not legally allowed to carry her pistol into the restaurant where she was dining with her parents. The gunman entered, killed her parents and many others, and no one could stop him. This is an extreme example, but coincides with my belief that gun crimes in CA are committed against more people who are NOT legally allowed to carry, than those who are. Examples: ATM robberies, car jackings, armed street muggings, etc., cases where people are NOT "allowed to defend themselves from gun carrying criminals". If anyone has stats to prove otherwise, please prove me wrong.
Ugh, carjackings.

There's a rant and a half.

Everyone getting carjacked has a two ton hammer at their disposal. Failure to use it consitutes either very bad luck (getting carjacked while in a traffic jam?!) or very bad judgement (somehow you're safer outside of the car than inside it?!).

People talk about stopping power. Let me tell you that no .45 or 12 guage or anything like that will stop someone quite as well as a car crushing their body. If they get out of the way, you drive off, and then they're not carjacking you anymore.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:23 AM
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At this sort of distance a knife would be quite effective.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluisious
You're missing the point.

If the combative/defensive mindset is not in the shooter, the gun won't do anything special by itself. Being able to shoot is not the same as being able to fight.
I certainly agree with that point as stated.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:45 AM
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There is a specific exception in the Penal Code for you to CCW if you have a good reason to be in fear of your life. That's the usual out that's used to let CCW charges go away in a good shoot.

On the carjacking side, everyone needs to convince themselves and their loved ones that the last thing a carjacker wants is a high speed ride into a tree while holding on to the outside of the car. If you're carjacked, floor it and destroy the car. If you can get the perp at the same time - so much the better.

-Gene
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:36 PM
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...what the hell?

You win the bizarre story of the day award.

IMO, when I'm wandering around dark parking lots, I'm looking to see what's going on around me. If I see a pair of folks making time in my direction, I'm either going to get in the car and drive (enough time) or run for it (not enough time).

My keys stay in my pocket, not in a lock. That's just silly. That's also how you lock yourself out of your car
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Old 03-03-2010, 2:30 PM
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Complete NECRO post for sure so I am sorry for that.

But Chris... I met you briefly at the Cow Palace show a few months ago and I have to say from what I read you saved some lives and I appluad you for this. I think it is B.S. that he tried to sue you. I hope that in a moment or 1/2 hr to hr need I can keep my mind clear enough to do the right thing. Your a stuf in my mind. Thanks for being you!!
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Old 03-03-2010, 3:00 PM
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Google Stacy Lim. She was an LAPD offduty officer who was shot in the heart
at contact distance with a .357 Magnum. She manged to draw her weapon & fire multiple times, killing her attacker before collapsing. She survived.
She was able to draw her weapon & hit a moving target with all 4 of her shots AFTER being shot through the heart with a .357. Although flat-lining 3 times she survived & returned to duty 8 months later. Amazing story.

Last edited by toadman; 03-03-2010 at 3:10 PM.. Reason: Add
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Old 03-03-2010, 3:07 PM
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Would be nice to collect all of the times self defense required someone to open fire on a perp, and the aftermath into one location. Maybe there is a site that already does this, if there is pardon my ignorance. However such a thing would be an invaluable tool to all of us to learn what it's really like in those moments and also the outcome with the inevitable lawsuits
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Old 03-03-2010, 4:08 PM
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Wow, this thread brings back memories. I'm the paramedic who kept the perp alive.
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Old 03-03-2010, 4:10 PM
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wow, old but still interesting, and QBG thank you for doing what is right at the right time.
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