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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #161  
Old 03-28-2014, 1:08 AM
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I spoke to a Sheriff's deputy at the OC court house this morning and out of curiosity asked if a CCW allowed one to carry a handgun inside the court house. He pointed me to a sign near the entrance that said weapons of any kind were prohibited (it cited penal code 171b).

I said that a CCW was specifically one of the exemptions to that section and he very quickly told me that I was wrong.

I looked up 171b when I got home and it *does* say that CCW holders are exempt... Was the deputy simply misinformed or has something been changed?
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  #162  
Old 03-28-2014, 6:01 AM
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/\ There is an CCW exemption in the penal code, but most courts have a local rule that guns are not permitted in court buildings except by LEOs. It's not even worth asking and all OC courts have metal detectors, so best to leave it in the car.


Sent from my iPhone; please pardon typos, edits & stupid comments.

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Last edited by Doheny; 03-28-2014 at 6:25 AM..
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  #163  
Old 03-28-2014, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nil View Post
I spoke to a Sheriff's deputy at the OC court house this morning and out of curiosity asked if a CCW allowed one to carry a handgun inside the court house. He pointed me to a sign near the entrance that said weapons of any kind were prohibited (it cited penal code 171b).

I said that a CCW was specifically one of the exemptions to that section and he very quickly told me that I was wrong.

I looked up 171b when I got home and it *does* say that CCW holders are exempt... Was the deputy simply misinformed or has something been changed?

Yes, ... and maybe not.
Yes he probably was misinformed with respect to this specific code section but there are additional code sections that govern courthouses which give the head judge the authority to make those kind of restrictions.

I am not a lawyer, so you know............
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  #164  
Old 03-28-2014, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
but there are additional code sections that govern courthouses which give the head judge the authority to make those kind of restrictions.
It is the Presiding Judge who decides if weapons will be allowed in the Courts.

Locally, even on-duty LEO, if they are parties to a case being heard, aren't allowed to carry into the Family Law Courthouse...they have lockboxes at the entrance
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  #165  
Old 03-28-2014, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Huh?

Answer is simple. Know the applicable Penal Code sections. Know the restrictions that your own IA printed on your license. Assume in most urban or semi-urban counties, there will also be local ordinances against carrying in parks and city and county buildings, with NO exemption for LTC. And...
...use common sense. It's a stupid idea to hang out in a bar while carrying, even if your IA does not restrict it.
Actually, it's one of the things prohibited on the standard application which you sign and agree to when getting your CCW.
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  #166  
Old 03-28-2014, 5:00 PM
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It is the Presiding Judge who decides if weapons will be allowed in the Courts.

Locally, even on-duty LEO, if they are parties to a case being heard, aren't allowed to carry into the Family Law Courthouse...they have lockboxes at the entrance

This is what I said.
Even a judge is not permitted to violate law therefor, it is my understanding, there is a section within the CA Government Code (law) which grants the judge the authority to make that restriction.


No one, LEO, judge, DA, or any of us are permitted to have any weapon at all if we are a party to a case in any court in this state.
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  #167  
Old 03-28-2014, 5:14 PM
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Default Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list (Legalities)

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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Actually, it's one of the things prohibited on the standard application which you sign and agree to when getting your CCW.

Yep, you got me there. That restriction applies to all licenses, regardless of issuing agency. Interesting that SSD types it on the license, unnecessarily since it's already a restriction. Their wording is "remaining at any establishment..."
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  #168  
Old 03-28-2014, 5:44 PM
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Default Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list (Legalities)

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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
This is what I said.

Even a judge is not permitted to violate law therefor, it is my understanding, there is a section within the CA Government Code (law) which grants the judge the authority to make that restriction.





No one, LEO, judge, DA, or any of us are permitted to have any weapon at all if we are a party to a case in any court in this state.

If you look at your post that's not really what you said, outlaw.

Just to be clear, it's unlikely a CCW'er will be able to carry in any court house, regardless if they are a party to an action or not.


Sent from my iPhone; please pardon typos, edits & stupid comments.

Last edited by Doheny; 03-28-2014 at 5:47 PM..
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  #169  
Old 03-28-2014, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Yep, you got me there. That restriction applies to all licenses, regardless of issuing agency. Interesting that SSD types it on the license, unnecessarily since it's already a restriction. Their wording is "remaining at any establishment..."
If it is not on the license, and not in the Penal Code, it doesn't matter.

The Application is not a 'contract', and any implication that it may be is, IMO, entirely gutted by the plain language of the Penal Code at 26200
Quote:
(a) A license issued pursuant to this article may include
any reasonable restrictions or conditions that the issuing authority
deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place,
manner, and circumstances under which the licensee may carry a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person.
(b) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (a) shall be
indicated on any license issued.
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  #170  
Old 03-28-2014, 6:12 PM
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The bigger point is interesting, but personally moot since I don't go to bars anyway.
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  #171  
Old 03-28-2014, 6:16 PM
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Default Definitive "Where can I carry in CA?" list (Legalities)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
If it is not on the license, and not in the Penal Code, it doesn't matter.

The Application is not a 'contract', and any implication that it may be is, IMO, entirely gutted by the plain language of the Penal Code at 26200

So if it's not on the license we can drink in a bar, regardless of the admonishment on the application?

A hypothetical, obviously.


Sent from my iPhone; please pardon typos, edits & stupid comments.
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  #172  
Old 03-28-2014, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
So if it's not on the license we can drink in a bar, regardless of the admonishment on the application?

A hypothetical, obviously.
As the law stands today, yes.

There is a court case in Sacramento which may rule the other way. We shall see.

'Legality', of course, is distinct from 'wise'.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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  #173  
Old 03-28-2014, 9:02 PM
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Very true!


Sent from my iPhone; please pardon typos, edits & stupid comments.
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  #174  
Old 03-31-2014, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Armedman25 View Post
As a Los Angeles City employee going from building to building i see security screens every one. Their are different wording but for the most part they state no weapons of any kind including CCW permit holders. As a CCW holder in another county it eirks me that L.A. doesn't observe any CCW permit unless you are a pase officer.
I traveled through LAX in 2013. called ahead to airport police about rearming after I retrieved my checked bag. asked the officer about using a bathroom stall to retrieve and reload my LC9 before heading to shuttle service. His only comment was concern that racking the slide might alarm anyone who might hear it.

Othewise had no concern about ccw in non sterile area of LAX.

Same thing at Oakland.
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  #175  
Old 04-01-2014, 8:44 AM
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...before heading to shuttle service.
The shuttle is a "common carrier" i.e. bus. Therefore, it's illegal to carry on one without written consent. See the OP.
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  #176  
Old 04-01-2014, 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tumark2 View Post
I traveled through LAX in 2013. called ahead to airport police about rearming after I retrieved my checked bag. asked the officer about using a bathroom stall to retrieve and reload my LC9 before heading to shuttle service. His only comment was concern that racking the slide might alarm anyone who might hear it.

Othewise had no concern about ccw in non sterile area of LAX.

Same thing at Oakland.
I find using the "family" restrooms the easiest solution. Typically a private room and usually have a small table/counter to use. Plenty of room to do your thing and stay out of sight/sound. There are usually 1 or 2 available in the area and more common in the arrivals section.
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Sacramento would declare martial law sooner than they'd meet with Gandhi, Gautama Budda, and Jesus Christ if the three were packing heat.
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Even people not from San Francisco can appreciate a good public spanking like this.
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  #177  
Old 04-03-2014, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
The sterile area of the airport is only that part past the magnometers up to and including the cabin of a common carrier aircraft. GA has different rules.

The LA Airport outskirts thing is LAPD making stuff up.

-Gene
I didn't read the entire thread, but people need to be careful about carrying in any areas of an airport. It's an assumption to think that it's ok to carry on the non-sterile side of an airport with a CCW. For instance, Orange County Airport doesn't permit firearms except for the exceptions noted and a CCW is not one of them. Also, note that it says "on the airport" and not "in" the airport. So be careful if picking someone up at the curb or if airport LE has an inspection checkpoint set up.


Quote:
OCCO 2-1-53(i)
No person, except peace officers, an authorized post office or Airport employee or a member of the armed forces of the United States on official duty, shall carry any weapon, explosive or flammable material on or about his person, openly or concealed, on the Airport without the written permission of the Airport Director. This Section shall not apply to persons carrying firearms in cases, broken down or unloaded when said firearms are being transported by air. For the purposes of this section, a weapon includes all those listed in California Penal Code Sections 12000-12654.

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  #178  
Old 04-03-2014, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
For instance, Orange County Airport doesn't permit firearms except for the exceptions noted and a CCW is not one of them.
Yes, but such sinage doesn't carry the weight of law in CA. At the worst they can ask you to leave and if you don't tag you with trespassing.
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  #179  
Old 04-03-2014, 7:32 PM
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Yes, but such sinage doesn't carry the weight of law in CA. At the worst they can ask you to leave and if you don't tag you with trespassing.
When it's backed by city or county ordinance it surely does. You may beat the charge, but you will not beat the ride.
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Sacramento would declare martial law sooner than they'd meet with Gandhi, Gautama Budda, and Jesus Christ if the three were packing heat.
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Even people not from San Francisco can appreciate a good public spanking like this.
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  #180  
Old 04-03-2014, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jb7706 View Post
When it's backed by city or county ordinance it surely does. You may beat the charge, but you will not beat the ride.
Once again, why do we tolerate law enforcement that makes arrests when there is no charge?

What you describe is clearly intimidation to get the general populace to behave the way the bullies want them to.
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  #181  
Old 04-03-2014, 7:55 PM
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Yes, but such sinage doesn't carry the weight of law in CA. At the worst they can ask you to leave and if you don't tag you with trespassing.
Actually, yes it does. It's a Codified Ordinance; it is enforceable. OCCO = Orange County Codified Ordinance.

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  #182  
Old 04-04-2014, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
Once again, why do we tolerate law enforcement that makes arrests when there is no charge?

What you describe is clearly intimidation to get the general populace to behave the way the bullies want them to.
That is not what I'm describing. I'm describing a situation where there is clearly a government ordinance that prohibits carry at a particular place. If found carrying in that place you will be arrested and very likely charged. If you have good circumstances and a good lawyer and justice wins the day you may beat the charge. If you have the money and the willingness to be the crash dummy go for it. Otherwise there are other ways to defeat the infringement without ending up in jail. At the very least your IA will probably yank your license.

Armed civil disobedience at an airport is not going to curry favor with a CA judge or Joe jury member.
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Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
Sacramento would declare martial law sooner than they'd meet with Gandhi, Gautama Budda, and Jesus Christ if the three were packing heat.
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Even people not from San Francisco can appreciate a good public spanking like this.
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  #183  
Old 04-04-2014, 9:51 AM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
Once again, why do we tolerate law enforcement that makes arrests when there is no charge?



What you describe is clearly intimidation to get the general populace to behave the way the bullies want them to.

Please describe what not tolerating it specifically entails, in your opinion. Ignoring the local codes and carrying anyway? If so, what's your personal risk/benefit analysis consist of? Personally speaking, mine leads me to conclude the the risk inherent in carrying illegally in an airport outside the sterile area in a city or county that has codified prohibitions against it is greater than the risk of being unarmed in that location. To conclude otherwise, based on the available data, is illogical. Is your stance based more on a refusal to submit framework? Everyone has to evaluate that for himself or herself. I'm not going to jeopardize my family's well being to make that particular statement in that situation. If you choose to, that's your decision.
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  #184  
Old 04-04-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Actually, yes it does. It's a Codified Ordinance; it is enforceable. OCCO = Orange County Codified Ordinance.

.
I don't see any thing in the OCCO which actually criminalizes breaking any of the 'Sec. 2-1-53. Rules of conduct. '
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  #185  
Old 04-04-2014, 2:23 PM
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I don't see any thing in the OCCO which actually criminalizes breaking any of the 'Sec. 2-1-53. Rules of conduct. '
Violation of any OCCO is a misdemeanor.

Quote:
ORDINANCE NO. 2725

An Ordinance Adopting the Codified Ordinances of the County of Orange, California.

The Board of Supervisors of the County of Orange, California, does ordain as follows:

Section 1. A comprehensive ordinance code entitled "Codified Ordinances of the County of Orange," three copies of which are on file in the Office of the Clerk of the Board of Supervisors of the County of Orange, is hereby adopted pursuant to Government Code Sections 25126, 25127, and 25128 of the State of California, and in the manner prescribed by Section 50022.1, et seq., of said Government Code, as the ordinance code for the County of Orange.

Section 2. Any person violating any of the provisions of this Code shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person convicted for a violation of any of the provisions of this Code, unless otherwise specifically provided in this Code, shall be punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500) or by imprisonment in the County Jail for a period of not more than six months or by both such fine and imprisonment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
Sacramento would declare martial law sooner than they'd meet with Gandhi, Gautama Budda, and Jesus Christ if the three were packing heat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Even people not from San Francisco can appreciate a good public spanking like this.
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  #186  
Old 04-04-2014, 3:18 PM
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Violation of any OCCO is a misdemeanor.
Thanks jb
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  #187  
Old 04-04-2014, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jb7706 View Post
When it's backed by city or county ordinance it surely does.
Thanks for that clarification.

So, basically, any city can pass any ordinance and we are subject to it? How are we supposed to survive without breaking some obscure law? I'm not arguing the validity of what you said. I'm just trying to understand my tenuous position as a CCW holder.


For the record, I don't test these waters. If a place posts a sign that they don't want me carrying my gun in there, then I don't go there. Just like carrying in a bar may be legal, I choose not to test that theory.
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  #188  
Old 04-04-2014, 5:40 PM
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So, basically, any city can pass any ordinance and we are subject to it? How are we supposed to survive without breaking some obscure law? I'm not arguing the validity of what you said. I'm just trying to understand my tenuous position as a CCW holder.
Yeah! Turns out voting matters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
Sacramento would declare martial law sooner than they'd meet with Gandhi, Gautama Budda, and Jesus Christ if the three were packing heat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Even people not from San Francisco can appreciate a good public spanking like this.
WANTED: G19. New or near new condition in Sacramento area.
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  #189  
Old 04-04-2014, 6:35 PM
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So, basically, any city can pass any ordinance and we are subject to it? How are we supposed to survive without breaking some obscure law? I'm not arguing the validity of what you said. I'm just trying to understand my tenuous position as a CCW holder.





.
This is extremely common. Counties, cities, park districts, etc. Look up the city and county codes in your region. Most of 'em are online.
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Old 04-06-2014, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
So, basically, any city can pass any ordinance and we are subject to it? How are we supposed to survive without breaking some obscure law? I'm not arguing the validity of what you said. I'm just trying to understand my tenuous position as a CCW holder.
This is an area of concern to all of us.

I don't know the exact details of how it works, but basically the State has declared that it, and it alone, shall govern the area of firearm laws. (With some very specific exceptions) This was very deliberate to avoid a patchwork of confusing and contradictory laws.

The general consensus would probably be that a city or county (including Orange County) cannot pass an ordinance prohibiting CCW within their borders. Yet we see ordinances all over the place regarding parks, arenas and airport grounds.

What is the legal theory that allows one but not the other? Or is it a situation where a narrow prohibition leaves us nodding and saying either "I'm OK with that" or "It's not worth the fight". Whereas a more broad prohibition would bring down the wrath of the entire firearm lobby.

As Rastoff notes, one lives in constant fear of running afoul of some law one had no practical way of knowing about.
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Old 04-06-2014, 4:58 PM
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See the wiki on the pre-emption in Government Code -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/St...Gun_Regulation
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  #192  
Old 04-06-2014, 8:31 PM
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This is the problem when laws try to be specific. Just like the bullet button, there are always ways around laws. So, specific cities can dodge state law by writing ordinances. It's very frustrating living in this modern world.
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Old 04-07-2014, 6:43 PM
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See the wiki on the pre-emption in Government Code -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/St...Gun_Regulation
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All the state pre-empts is registration and licensing by any other entity. Possession? Sale? Not covered.
Thank for the eye-opening.

Glancing through the referenced decision in "Fiscal v. City and County of San Francisco", I took away the understanding that the ordinance was stuck down in it's entirety because some aspects interfered with state preemption. Technically, the court could have decided to sever the conflicting elements out of the ordinance, though that is not usual.

By the same token, SF could, at any time, simply pass another ordinance that does not conflict and outright bans possession. Signs at the border and everything.

Sorry...don't mean to get a discussion rolling here. If I decide to pursue this thinking I'll start a thread in the appropriate forum.
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  #194  
Old 04-15-2014, 8:26 PM
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So... if someone with a valid CCW is picking up another person at the Orange County Airport ... they cannot have a firearm in the vehicle even if it's in a locked case? I'm confused as to what the CCW person is supposed to do under these circumstances since I thought locking the firearm in a box was the "fix" for places where CCW permit holders cannot go... Guess the same thing applies to Post Offices but a little easier to park and walk to a post office than to park and walk to most airport terminals (and I'm guessing an argument could be made that off-site long-term parking is still "on airport"... since it's part of the standard airport maps etc.

///Quote:
OCCO 2-1-53(i)
No person, except peace officers, an authorized post office or Airport employee or a member of the armed forces of the United States on official duty, shall carry any weapon, explosive or flammable material on or about his person, openly or concealed, on the Airport without the written permission of the Airport Director. This Section shall not apply to persons carrying firearms in cases, broken down or unloaded when said firearms are being transported by air. For the purposes of this section, a weapon includes all those listed in California Penal Code Sections 12000-12654.
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Old 04-23-2014, 7:18 AM
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I'm looking at the Common Carrier prohibition, and from reading the section it sounds like Federal Law only makes it illegal if the common carrier is going interstate or international, so Alcatraz Ferry would not count. Is my reading correct? I'm not a lawyer, but was trying to sort this out for times I take public transit.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
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(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
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  #196  
Old 04-23-2014, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by gidjin View Post
I'm looking at the Common Carrier prohibition, and from reading the section it sounds like Federal Law only makes it illegal if the common carrier is going interstate or international, so Alcatraz Ferry would not count. Is my reading correct? I'm not a lawyer, but was trying to sort this out for times I take public transit.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
You're talking the ferry to Alcatraz Island, right?

Quote:
Firearms in National Parks
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park. However, 36 CFR § 2.4(a)(1)(iii) still prohibits the use of any weapon, trap or net in the National Parks. This includes those persons residing in the State of California that possess a valid State of California carry-concealed weapon permit (also known as a Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permit). These permits are typically issued by the county sheriff of the county where the state resident resides.
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Old 04-23-2014, 4:25 PM
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Actually no, I'll be using the local light rail to get to work. And I had a recent trip where I took the Amtrak train into SF without knowing about the Common Carriers, but didn't think they were restricted after reading the section and reading this thread: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=479831

Last edited by gidjin; 04-23-2014 at 4:27 PM.. Reason: Adding additional info
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  #198  
Old 05-20-2014, 6:05 PM
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I searched but didn't find anything about this but I just went to a sacramento rivercats game you there is no metal detectors or signs so you can carry there.


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  #199  
Old 05-28-2014, 4:13 PM
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I used the search but didn't find anything. I ride the metrolink from OC to la and back regularly. Can I CCW on metrolink? Their site is silent about it.
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  #200  
Old 05-28-2014, 4:32 PM
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I used the search but didn't find anything. I ride the metrolink from OC to la and back regularly. Can I CCW on metrolink? Their site is silent about it.
The thread has wandered a bit from its original intent, I started it for state/federal level laws. There has been some local regulation discussed, but metrolink has not been discussed to my knowledge. You would need to refer to the responsible agency regulations for that.
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