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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

View Poll Results: Would you recommend a .380Auto for CCW?
Yes, I would. Decent little gun. 42 91.30%
No, I would not. They are unreliable. 4 8.70%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 05-04-2019, 7:02 PM
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Default This is for instructors re: .380Auto

Would you recommend the .380Auto as a carry gun?

I've been a CCW instructor for 5 years now. In all that time I've seen many .380Auto guns in my class. As far as I can remember, I've only seen one make it through the class without malfunction.

At first the shooting portion of my class was 35 rounds. Since the new law the number of rounds is only 12. The one .380Auto that made it through the class was recent so, it only had to fire 12 rounds. I can't remember a single one making through the 35 round course of fire without a malfunction. The brand of gun or shooter experience doesn't seem to matter; they're just not reliable.

The most important factor in a self-defense gun is functional reliability. If it don't work, it's useless.

So, anyone can chime in, but I'd really like to hear from instructors because they see more guns than most. What's your experience with the .380Auto guns?
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Would you recommend the .380Auto as a carry gun?

I've been a CCW instructor for 5 years now. In all that time I've seen many .380Auto guns in my class. As far as I can remember, I've only seen one make it through the class without malfunction.

At first the shooting portion of my class was 35 rounds. Since the new law the number of rounds is only 12. The one .380Auto that made it through the class was recent so, it only had to fire 12 rounds. I can't remember a single one making through the 35 round course of fire without a malfunction. The brand of gun or shooter experience doesn't seem to matter; they're just not reliable.

The most important factor in a self-defense gun is functional reliability. If it don't work, it's useless.

So, anyone can chime in, but I'd really like to hear from instructors because they see more guns than most. What's your experience with the .380Auto guns?
Not an instructor, but Iíve qualified a .380 three times on the BSIS Course of Fire, 50 rds, with zero malfunctions. I donít recall any malfunctions in years of ownership of that gun.
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:17 PM
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I own multiple .380's and all have proven more than sufficiently dependable to qualify for CCW without issue...
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:24 PM
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Limp wrists
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:32 PM
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Junk low quality 380 = NO
Walther, Glock even Ruger = OK
Only problem is knockdown power. I have loaded 380 to near 9mm for better performance.
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:34 PM
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I have qualified twice with a .380 auto. Of course it is a Sig p238.
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:40 PM
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Never had a malfunction with LCP, not while qualifying or otherwise. Glock 42 also runs good.
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Old 05-04-2019, 7:49 PM
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The issue isn't with the firearm, the issue is with the shooter. There are SO MANY quality 380's out there. Kahr, Ruger LCP, S&W EZ , just to name a few.

Look they are usually small (exception with the EZ as it is the size of a 9mm), so getting enough hand on the pistol to control it's recoil and allow a reload without a stove pipe is a crucial focus. The guns are usually fine, but shooting them is not always pleasant.

With modern ammo, and a realistic approach to the proximity with which you may shoot one, it is absolutely an acceptable CCW caliber. Anyone who speaks to the contrary is just a blabbing mall ninja.



EDIT: I'm not an instructor, just to clarify.

Last edited by bballwizard05; 05-04-2019 at 7:52 PM..
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Old 05-04-2019, 8:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave50 View Post
Limp wrists
Quote:
Originally Posted by bballwizard05 View Post
The issue isn't with the firearm, the issue is with the shooter. There are SO MANY quality 380's out there. Kahr, Ruger LCP, S&W EZ , just to name a few.

Look they are usually small (exception with the EZ as it is the size of a 9mm), so getting enough hand on the pistol to control it's recoil and allow a reload without a stove pipe is a crucial focus. The guns are usually fine, but shooting them is not always pleasant.

With modern ammo, and a realistic approach to the proximity with which you may shoot one, it is absolutely an acceptable CCW caliber. Anyone who speaks to the contrary is just a blabbing mall ninja.



EDIT: I'm not an instructor, just to clarify.

this^^^ I have a G42 and the wife has a Kahr P-380 both run flawlessly, however we had to be thought how to shoot them correctly as shooting a sub-compact is not like shooting a full size or even a compact.

After 30 minutes with a good trainer you would be amazed what my wife can do with her P380.
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Old 05-04-2019, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bballwizard05 View Post
The issue isn't with the firearm, the issue is with the shooter.
But if the shooter hires an instructor and still fails, then whose fault is it?
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Old 05-04-2019, 9:28 PM
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I'm not a CCW instructor, but I am an NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor and RSO.

I personally have two .380s listed on my CCW. A Sig P238 and an LCP. I have never had a malfunction in either. I used to own a Bersa - ppl rag on that all the time but I never had a malfunction in it either ( and it was much more smooth than my "real" ppk/s. My friend has a G42. that thing is awesome.

Nothing wrong with the .380 it's the shooter, the quality or condition of the gun.
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Old 05-05-2019, 7:54 AM
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It can be either. Either the insturctor is not giving proper instruction, or the shooter is incapable of doing what they were instructed to do. When I was instructing I ran across this a few times. It was usually a physical thing. People simply didn't have the physical capability to shoot the gun (hand strength, arm strength, hand size, finger length, etc.) that they brought. "But I paid $900 for this gun, everyone says its the best!" Sorry, but the human/mechanical interface is an important factor when shooting and not everyone will be able to shoot all pistols well.

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But if the shooter hires an instructor and still fails, then whose fault is it?
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Old 05-05-2019, 7:25 PM
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I'm not an instructor, but my Bodyguard .380 has never had a single malfunction, ever, in years of shooting it.
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Old 05-05-2019, 8:03 PM
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A lot of good answers above. I had to send back the wifeís G42 for fte issues to Glock, since we got it back it has been flawless, we both qualified with it. I also only use higher powered ammo for it as well. Our PPK has never had issues. Limp wristing and underpowered ammo are big issues with .380ís from what Iíve seen.
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Old 05-06-2019, 5:46 AM
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LCP Custom and stainless, G42, and formerly a P238 here. Never an issue that wasn't caused by cheap practice ammo or accidental limp wristing.
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Old 05-06-2019, 6:02 AM
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Just to be clear, you've been instructing for five years and you have never seen a Glock 42, a SIG 238, an LCP, or a Kahr 380 get through 35 rounds of ammo?
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Old 05-06-2019, 6:06 AM
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Not an Instructor. Have never had a hiccup, ftf, fte, with either my LCP or Glock 42 or my Seecamp 32.
As for the caliber, it's all about shot placement.
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Old 05-06-2019, 7:55 AM
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One of my carry guns is a KelTec P3AT .380, and I put a few boxes through it every year just to stay familiar with it. Hasn’t malfunctioned yet. I carried a Ruger LCP before that with no problems either.
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Old 05-06-2019, 8:02 AM
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I have a Taurus tcp considered one of the cheapest 380 you can find and it shoots everytime you pulled the trigger. I have used this for at least 4000 rounds and never clean the gun not even once and it still shoots. It so cheap I'm trying to break it but it keeps on shooting lol.
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Old 05-06-2019, 8:09 AM
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Lcp gen2 hundred percent reliable.
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Old 05-06-2019, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
Just to be clear, you've been instructing for five years and you have never seen a Glock 42, a SIG 238, an LCP, or a Kahr 380 get through 35 rounds of ammo?
yeah kinda scratching my head on this one.

I have only been instructing CCW for 4 years and I have see all of those succeed just fine.

And I have seen many of those have a hangup.

They are just machines. If taken care of and of good manufacture, they work.

ETA: Sig 238 is the most common 380 I see.
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Old 05-06-2019, 8:48 AM
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I've seen guns fail at ccw classes. It still surprises me when stupid preventable stoppages occur.
Ammo, ignorance and stupid seem to be the causes without regard to caliber or brand.
My last class I was next to someone that was loading their mag with the rounds pointing the wrong way. . This shooter passed the class. It seems these type of folks just shoot every two years and ignore any need for practice.
IMO there is a need for remedial firearm handling 101 prior to ccw qual.


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Old 05-07-2019, 8:26 AM
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UGH.... here we go again. I get so sick and tired of the macho men and their "I wouldn't carry a .380." Well, dude... if they are so bad as a round then I guess you'll have no problem standing in front of one and getting shot with it? After all... it's a crappy round... right?

I have a Sig P238 and I absolutely LOVE that gun! NO.ISSUES.WHATSOEVER. I don't think I've EVERY had an issue with any round shot from it!

On the other hand I have an EMP 9mm and it's a POS. Failures left and right!

Which gun do you think I should carry? The FLAWLESS .380? or the ever malfunctioning EMP?

I shot my .380, my CZ P-01 and hubby's EMP at my CCW qual and had no issues with any of them.
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Old 05-07-2019, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
Just to be clear, you've been instructing for five years and you have never seen a Glock 42, a SIG 238, an LCP, or a Kahr 380 get through 35 rounds of ammo?
Right!? Just someone wanting to bash on .380!
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Old 05-07-2019, 8:51 AM
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Default Not an instructor

But I have shot and carried my Sig P230/232's on and off for better than 20 + years without any reliability or function issues. Not super experienced with .380's aside from those, but never had any serious functionality issues that I can recall. Shot placement was always more critical than ammo type from my humble personnel experience. .22's have killed more things than any other ammo type around as I recall
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Old 05-07-2019, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
My last class I was next to someone that was loading their mag with the rounds pointing the wrong way.
Were they shooting an HK?
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Old 05-07-2019, 9:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Were they shooting an HK?
Glock 26 same as me.

The instructor recruited me to "baby sit" and help with safe gun handling 101 stuff. I agreed in part because I didn't want to get shot by this particular numb nut.

*Everyone passed the class but one. Shooter couldn't hit a cow in the teat with a tin cup while sitting on a milking stool.

*2 year ccw classes are too much of a re dux, Pete re-Pete Ditto, ad nauseam, etc..
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Old 05-07-2019, 9:53 AM
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1st off, not an instructor, but we are advid shooters, 380 included.

Wife CCW's a p232..zero issues, shoots straight.

I see nothing wrong with them
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Old 05-07-2019, 9:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave50 View Post
Limp wrists
^This. Just a wild guess...most, if not all, of those that encountered issues probably haven't had the training/learning of shooting fundamentals.
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Old 05-08-2019, 8:55 PM
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My EDC is a Sig 238. I shoot it better than ANY of my other guns, with the sole exception of my competition gun, a Glock 34.

For anyone doubting that a .380 can do the job, allow me to shoot a bullet in each of your eyes, each of your ears, up your nose, and up your penis. Then report back.
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Old 05-08-2019, 9:25 PM
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I’ve seen some of the worst shooting and shooters at CCW classes. It’s like it’s the first time some of these people ever handled a handgun. It’s quite concerning actually. If I were an instructor I would insist on proof of competency or an intro class before I sign someone up for a CCW class. CCW is supposed to be about learning laws and demonstrating competency, not about training someone HOW to shoot. And selfishly as a guy whose probable put over 100k rounds downrange over the past 40 years, it’s kind of irritating when the class comes to a complete stop to train someone in something they should already know. I just want to shoot my required rounds and go home already lol.
While none of this is exclusive to .380, it is reasonable to think many inexperienced shooters may be starting with .380.
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Old 05-08-2019, 9:59 PM
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Itís also possible that the OP is just seeing a lot of new guns. I decide to get my CCW, go pick up a shiny new 380 pocket gun, and take it to class having fired few if any rounds through it. My Gen 4 G17 was terrible for the first 200 rounds or so, as was my Dan Wesson PM9. I donít think weíd generally classify either gun as unreliable. Most new guns need some break in to show their potential. Maybe the 380s often donít get shot enough to get there.

I have a Kahr P380 on my permit and carry it a lot. Made it through the qual without a hiccup.


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Old 05-08-2019, 10:06 PM
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"the brand of gun or shooter experience doesn't seem to matter; they're just not reliable."

Thread fail, poll and posts further confirm fail
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Old 05-09-2019, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel View Post
For anyone doubting that a .380 can do the job, allow me to shoot a bullet in each of your eyes, each of your ears, up your nose, and up your penis. Then report back.
Because that's a viable self-defense scenario?...
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Old 05-09-2019, 7:39 AM
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CCW sized handguns simply require more diligence and practice to attain a good level of proficiency. Poor shooting habits get magnified with the shorter slide stroke, lower mass, tiny sight and abbreviated grips that normally come with tiny guns.

Add a Makarov to the long list of reliable 380s named in this thread.
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Old 05-09-2019, 8:52 AM
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Former LEO/rangemaster here since 1982.

.380 is a wonderful carry round. The platforms are smaller and easy to carry.

The problem I saw was the size of the gun vs the hand size of the shooter. Some guns were too small for the shooter and the shooter would "ride" the slide causing a malfunction at times. Sometimes "hammer bite" would occur. The older Walther PPK, PP, & PPK/S were kinda sensitive to bullet shape too (and I like Walther 380's). FMJ's were fine but a JHP or a flat point would cause feeding problems. My Sig P230 stainless would eat anything, but heavy compared to today's polymer framed guns.

Maintenance was another problem. Some people just don't take care of their weapons. I got a Colt Govt .380 from a LEO. He said it had nothing but problems. I took the extractor out, bent it and it runs 100% with everything. I bought it and carry it at times. He didn't care. He lost confidence in the Colt.

I carry a Sig238, Colt 380 (govt), & Glock 42. I carry ball ammo. I have others, but the more modern guns are reliable.

The following is an article on the .380 round from a Los Angeles PD perspective. If you just want to cut to the chase...LAPD authorizes the Speer Lawman 95 TMJ round. The interesting part (for me) is the "Additional Information about .380 FMJ" at the end the of the FMJ section. The article is dated May 2017.

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/3...on-comparison/

Good Luck!!
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Old 05-12-2019, 2:29 PM
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I'm glad to hear that so many have no trouble with this gun/round combination. It may just be unique to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
Just to be clear, you've been instructing for five years and you have never seen a Glock 42, a SIG 238, an LCP, or a Kahr 380 get through 35 rounds of ammo?
Yes, that's correct, I don't remember seeing a single .380Auto make it through 35 rounds. It's possible that more than one gun has made it through the 35 rounds and I just don't remember it. When I started wondering about this, I started paying closer attention. Now I take note when someone has a .380Auto and I'm sure to watch closely to see if it malfunctions.

I see plenty of other guns malfunction too. It happens every class regardless of caliber, manufacturer or shooter gender/experience. It just seems to happen more with the .380Auto.

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Originally Posted by SomeGuy75 View Post
Iíve seen some of the worst shooting and shooters at CCW classes. Itís like itís the first time some of these people ever handled a handgun. Itís quite concerning actually. If I were an instructor I would insist on proof of competency or an intro class before I sign someone up for a CCW class.
I don't and wouldn't. The 2nd amendment doesn't have a competency requirement. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree with it.

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CCW is supposed to be about learning laws and demonstrating competency, not about training someone HOW to shoot.
Indeed. There just isn't time in a 4 hour class where it's required to teach the law and have every shooter shoot every gun they want on their license. I used to do some shooting instruction, but there just isn't time now.
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Old 05-12-2019, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Yes, that's correct, I don't remember seeing a single .380Auto make it through 35 rounds. It's possible that more than one gun has made it through the 35 rounds and I just don't remember it. When I started wondering about this, I started paying closer attention. Now I take note when someone has a .380Auto and I'm sure to watch closely to see if it malfunctions.

I see plenty of other guns malfunction too. It happens every class regardless of caliber, manufacturer or shooter gender/experience. It just seems to happen more with the .380Auto.
I can understand it happening more often with the .380 due to a variety of reasons, most notably cheap firearms and a bad grip/stance. For starters I wouldn't own anything Taurus and even worse are the Bryco/Jennings POS pistols that IMO belong in the trash. I'm a huge believer in a strong Weaver stance with semi-autos of any variety.

But you seeing it regardless of all the stuff I would normally attribute it to, I'm just not sure why. I don't doubt you, I just don't share the same experience. In fact the only caliber I find to be inherently undependable is the .22LR and that's almost strictly due to weapon choice. Our SIG mosquito is plagued by all the storied problems and although generally reliable now after polishing and spring changes and using only CCI ammo, I still wouldn't trust it as anything other than a plinking gun. I can't comment on .25 ACP guns, never shot one in my life nor have any desire to. But all of our .380's are rock solid.
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  #39  
Old 05-12-2019, 8:57 PM
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The fact that you are on this forum, your a "Gun Guy." You shoot, practice, take classes, care about your weapons, get to know there pros and cons and particularities, maintain them, clean them, etc. The vast majority for people carrying CCW are not like you. They did the minimum to pass the class. They most likely will never fire any guns between ccw renewal classes. They own one, maybe two magazines for their .380 and have never taken them apart for cleaning. Your lucky if they clean the gun once a year. This all leads to what the OP sees. I saw it 20 years ago when I was instructing, non-gun nuts haven't changed. It was so frustrating to see students show up at a level 2 handgun class 6-12 months after level 1 with a gun that had not been shot or cleaned since the first class, then they get frustrated with the speed of the class (because they have forgotten 80% of level 1 at this point) and poor performance of their their dirty firearm. We eventually implemented a non-manditory "cleaning party" back at the shop after every class to teach and perform basic cleaning and maintaince of students firearms. Only 2/3 of most classes took part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post

But you seeing it regardless of all the stuff I would normally attribute it to, I'm just not sure why.

Last edited by G-forceJunkie; 05-12-2019 at 9:00 PM..
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  #40  
Old 05-12-2019, 9:00 PM
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My pocket carry is Ruger LCP, I have zero malfunction when I qualified and every time I shoot it.
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