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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 01-04-2017, 11:04 PM
ToddSanDiego ToddSanDiego is offline
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Default Carry at Your Place of Business. Parking lot?

Hello all, I'm looking for clarification. As a business owner (without a CCW), I can carry in my place of business. My question is, can I legally carry in my parking lot? I own a car dealership. I work out of a warehouse and show vehicles from my warehouse and in the parking as well. The parking lot is shared with other businesses. I have 6 parking spaces in the parking lot that comes with my warehouse. The parking spaces are not specifically marked for my business (if that matters but could be marked if needed), but according to my lease, 6 spaces are mine. I know for a fact that no one leasing space in the complex will have an issue with me carrying (not that that matters) and the landlord (property owner) will not have an issue either. I just want to be sure what is legal. I will call local PD to be sure, but if anyone has the answer, please let me know. Thank you.
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Old 01-04-2017, 11:10 PM
ShaneB ShaneB is offline
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I would say get in contact with local PD...since they will be the party responding to any contacts you may have.
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Old 01-05-2017, 2:02 AM
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NO.

Without CCW, may not carry 'in public'.

Court decision on point is People v Overturf - see the wiki, http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...le_v._Overturf
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Old 01-05-2017, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
NO.

Without CCW, may not carry 'in public'.

Court decision on point is People v Overturf - see the wiki, http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...le_v._Overturf
As a supplement to Librarian's post...

Overturf is about 'loaded'
Loaded is generally prohibited in public within an incorporated city or in an unincorporated area where discharge is prohibited.

So, if your business parking lot is in an unincorporated area where discharge is not prohibited, it may be legal.

There are other exemptions for open/concealed carry as well as loaded/unloaded carry. You would need to make sure that ALL of your bases are covered.
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Old 01-06-2017, 7:23 AM
pzbike pzbike is offline
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If possible, acquire your CCW permit.
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
As a supplement to Librarian's post...

Overturf is about 'loaded'
Loaded is generally prohibited in public within an incorporated city or in an unincorporated area where discharge is prohibited.

So, if your business parking lot is in an unincorporated area where discharge is not prohibited, it may be legal.

There are other exemptions for open/concealed carry as well as loaded/unloaded carry. You would need to make sure that ALL of your bases are covered.
Can you please clarify your comment?

People v. Overturf is about carrying in "public places" as opposed to private property. The parking lot of a business into which the public may enter unopposed is a public place (so's your front lawn.)

People v. Clark focuses on "loaded", and the specific conditions required to make the gun loaded.

Incorporated/Unincorporated areas appear to have no bearing on either case.
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Old 01-07-2017, 4:45 PM
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My understanding is that no you cannot, it must be in a locked container until you are within the business, or if you had an outdoor business on that property would I suppose count. I don't know what county you are in, but if it's not one of the big city counties like LA, San Diego, San Fran, San Jose you might be able to get a permit. If you are in OC, Riverside, San Berdo, or Sac I think you would have a good chance provided you have an otherwise clean record.
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Old 01-07-2017, 4:49 PM
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Even within the business, you may still not carry in areas that are accessible to the public i.e. the sales floor.
You may carry behind the counter or in office areas.

Yes, gun store employees violate this daily.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Can you please clarify your comment?

People v. Overturf is about carrying in "public places" as opposed to private property. The parking lot of a business into which the public may enter unopposed is a public place (so's your front lawn.)

People v. Clark focuses on "loaded", and the specific conditions required to make the gun loaded.

Incorporated/Unincorporated areas appear to have no bearing on either case.
Overturf was convicted for having a loaded gun in a public place within an incorporated city. In other words, it tells us nothing about concealed carry (in public) but yet on private property.

Ultimately, when some asks a 'may I carry' topic, all of the bases need to cover both mode of carry (concealed/open) and the loaded state (loaded/unloaded) of the firearm.

Open Carry (both loaded and unloaded) are concerned about 'public places within incorporated cities' OR 'public places in unincorporated areas where discharge is prohibited' ergo Incorporated/Unincorporated (but prohibited discharge) are relevant to answer the question thoroughly.

Concealed carry (regardless of 'loaded-ness') has exemptions for property which one lawfully owns/possesses. Which could apply if one actually owned the parking lot. Similarly one's unfenced front yard.

Ultimately, there are indeed avenues in the statutes which would allow one to carry an unloaded handgun concealed (and even loaded concealed) in public.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Even within the business, you may still not carry in areas that are accessible to the public i.e. the sales floor.
You may carry behind the counter or in office areas.

Yes, gun store employees violate this daily.
I think that you may not be aware of how the Legislature changed the law.

PEN §26035. Nothing in Section 25850 shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person’s place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property. [Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711]

So the public place prohibition in Section 25850 does not apply to gun store employees. However, with respect to a shared parking lot, the argument could be made that is was not possessed by the business owner.
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Old 04-30-2019, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
I think that you may not be aware of how the Legislature changed the law.

PEN §26035. Nothing in Section 25850 shall prevent any person engaged in any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the person’s place of business, or any person in lawful possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that property. [Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711]

So the public place prohibition in Section 25850 does not apply to gun store employees. However, with respect to a shared parking lot, the argument could be made that is was not possessed by the business owner.
Having or keeping is not carrying. Just follow the link provided by Librarian and read the wiki.
Quote:
there is a distinction between "carrying" and "having" which has the effect of not letting one carry a loaded firearm in one's place of business or home where the area is quasi-public
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Old 04-30-2019, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Even within the business, you may still not carry in areas that are accessible to the public i.e. the sales floor.
You may carry behind the counter or in office areas.

Yes, gun store employees violate this daily.
Gun store employees open carry which you can't even get a license for.
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Old 04-30-2019, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
Gun store employees open carry which you can't even get a license for.
But it would be legal on private property with permission from the property owner, provided they remain in an area not accessible to the public.
Licensed CCW requires no consent from the owner, they must "opt out" and actively prohibit you from carrying, at which point the only charge would be trespass (and being fired).
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 05-06-2019, 3:38 PM
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the post of igs to which you replied is about open carry on private property with permission of the owner and your response was about a ccw holder not needing permission to carry on private property, unless the owner objects.

1. Doesn't the ccw only apply to concealed, not open, carry:

2. If you are carrying concealed, many private property owners won't be likely to object, unless you are thinking of quasi public places like hotels, restaurants, and such, but they are likely to object to any carry by signage.
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Old 05-06-2019, 4:46 PM
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Bunch of BS isn't it guys? I can't even believe we have to argue this...

I have no legal backing for my opinion on this, but my feeling is since the parking lot is shared then the answer is no. If it was your parking lot exclusively, I would feel differently about it especially considering the nature of the business showing cars on the lot. Even still, it's just the AC guy's opinion based solely on what I understand to be CA law.
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Old 05-06-2019, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
Bunch of BS isn't it guys? I can't even believe we have to argue this...

I have no legal backing for my opinion on this, but my feeling is since the parking lot is shared then the answer is no. If it was your parking lot exclusively, I would feel differently about it especially considering the nature of the business showing cars on the lot. Even still, it's just the AC guy's opinion based solely on what I understand to be CA law.
You gave the correct answer, which is a "no", but not quite for the correct reason. Close, but not quite, depending on what you mean by if it was his exclusively.

The problem you have with your parking lot is it is publicly accessible.
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Being on “inactive status” with the State Bar of California I cannot practice law. Were I "active", you would not be entitled to rely on my posts because you are not my client.
Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.
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Old 05-06-2019, 7:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
You gave the correct answer, which is a "no", but not quite for the correct reason. Close, but not quite, depending on what you mean by if it was his exclusively.

The problem you have with your parking lot is it is publicly accessible.
Your front yard is publicly accessible too... and guys in pawn shops and gun stores carry right? But maybe like Cokebottle said, they are all breaking the law if they come out from behind the counter I suppose?

I don't know, like I said it's all BS but the OP needs the correct answer and I think we agree in this case it's no.
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