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  #1  
Old 05-21-2019, 4:21 PM
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Default Good Article on CCW mods

It wasn’t really clear to me WHY almost everyone from the IA to the instructors are telling us not to modify a CCW , especially reducing trigger pull weight.

I found this article that gave the clearest explanations of the cons from great sources.
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/en/gun-modifications

As much as I would love to do some mods , I’ll spend the money on training and ammo. In the anti gun fervor of the moment , a modified trigger can be used against us in both civil and criminal court. The article scared me straight.

It’s very well written and may be of use in the future to someone like me who was absolutely confused by what they read on the forums and from a reputable company I was going to send my gun to. It’s not the gun, it’s the training of the shooter.
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Old 05-21-2019, 4:51 PM
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Sometimes, especially due to the limited available of pistols via CA Roster, some people have no choice but to modify so they can effectively utilize the firearm.

You're better off focusing on what constitutes legal and justifiable deployment of lethal force over whether or not to modify a firearm. Some people still believe that warning shots, brandishing, shooting the leg/hand, or that someone entering your home alone makes it justified. They're wrong.
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Old 05-21-2019, 4:57 PM
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I think the important question to ask is...
How many self defense cases end up in court and then of them how many has trigger pull mods been a factor in a guilty verdict?

I"m thinking it's pretty damn small, not saying to mod or not. But I'd love to have that data.

And sure a civil suit could be bad news too.
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Old 05-21-2019, 6:52 PM
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If the self defense case is good I doubt the trigger weight or modifications make any difference. If the case is a negligent discharge case, then sure it would come up.
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Old 05-21-2019, 6:55 PM
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Unless you are claiming that you didnt intend to pull the trigger, or the other side claims you didnt mean to shoot, utterly irrelevant to the issue of good shoot/bad shoot.

But what do i know?
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:28 PM
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What did you all think of the article ? Best one I’ve seen.
You are all right... in terms of good shoot / bad shoot it’s not relevant.

1. The cases where it’s been relevant are :
a. Negligent Discharge
b. Civil Suit where one has been cleared of criminal charges
c. The possibility of having your CCW license revoked because you agreed to keeping your gun free from modifications that change it from original factory specifications.
d. Even if it’s struck down , that process can cost 10k in lawyers fees.

I had this discussion this weekend with trainers , cops etc. Trigger mods are fine if they smooth the trigger but don’t lighten the pull weights. I just got a CGW package but am sending it back. Going to give my pistol instead to a good local Smith to polish and smooth out the action. Leave it stock.

In a rabid anti gunner environment, I don’t want my mods to be used against me.

Last edited by JoyfulJoker; 05-21-2019 at 7:35 PM..
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker View Post
It wasn’t really clear to me WHY almost everyone from the IA to the instructors are telling us not to modify a CCW , especially reducing trigger pull weight.

I found this article that gave the clearest explanations of the cons from great sources.
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/en/gun-modifications

As much as I would love to do some mods , I’ll spend the money on training and ammo. In the anti gun fervor of the moment , a modified trigger can be used against us in both civil and criminal court. The article scared me straight.

It’s very well written and may be of use in the future to someone like me who was absolutely confused by what they read on the forums and from a reputable company I was going to send my gun to. It’s not the gun, it’s the training of the shooter.
Following the FUD logic of that article, the big, bad lawyer would then ask the expert witness, “Why would someone invest time and money in training?” And the expert witness would reply, “to be better at killing people.”

That article is FILLED with FUD. There are quite a few “experts” out there making a pretty good living selling this kind of FUD. If you shoot someone, make sure it’s justifiable self-defense. If it is, then deadly force is deadly force. Period.
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Old 05-21-2019, 8:07 PM
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Maybe that is why you need to hire a defense expert.
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Old 05-21-2019, 8:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Following the FUD logic of that article, the big, bad lawyer would then ask the expert witness, “Why would someone invest time and money in training?” And the expert witness would reply, “to be better at killing people.”

That article is FILLED with FUD. There are quite a few “experts” out there making a pretty good living selling this kind of FUD. If you shoot someone, make sure it’s justifiable self-defense. If it is, then deadly force is deadly force. Period.


This! If someone could / would use performance mods on your CCW weapon against you in court then they would have a FIELD DAY when they find out you’ve had self defense / combat training or have several thousand rounds of ammo at home and god forbid more than a couple firearms...
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Old 05-21-2019, 8:26 PM
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IMHO, I think the jury would FIRST consider: Was your life in danger? Was self defense warranted?

And when they find out the crack addict with 3 felonies, a knife in his hand and with thw surveillance video showing he was about to stab your neck.... Maybe juat maybe the trigger pull weight with no overtravel isnt SOOOO relevant.

The article doesnt talk about that.
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  #11  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:32 PM
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I thought the article was really good but this article and articles like this are usually written from the ultra conservative approach. Which is exactly what I would expect from a self defense insurance company...If you want to insulate yourself the best you can from potential litigation, then don't make mods and/or don't make crazy mods like lightening your trigger to 2 lbs.

Moreover, the article doesn't really cover what happens in the majority of cases. It's more at the extreme end of things like if you get prosecutor who is trying to make a name for himself or if you happen to be the unfortunate George Zimmerman type person who was involved in a VERY public, social justice, incident. His case is truly an example of how horribly wrong things can go as that case never should have made it to trial.

However, all these things are worth considering when making decisions about modifying your carry gun. Each of us needs to determine the level of risk we're each comfortable with and whether we're planing/betting on the "norm" or planning for the extreme. It's also good information and worth noting that the burden of proof in a civil trial is likely going to be less than in a criminal one.
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Old 05-22-2019, 2:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
I thought the article was really good but this article and articles like this are usually written from the ultra conservative approach. Which is exactly what I would expect from a self defense insurance company...If you want to insulate yourself the best you can from potential litigation, then don't make mods and/or don't make crazy mods like lightening your trigger to 2 lbs.



Moreover, the article doesn't really cover what happens in the majority of cases. It's more at the extreme end of things like if you get prosecutor who is trying to make a name for himself or if you happen to be the unfortunate George Zimmerman type person who was involved in a VERY public, social justice, incident. His case is truly an example of how horribly wrong things can go as that case never should have made it to trial.



However, all these things are worth considering when making decisions about modifying your carry gun. Each of us needs to determine the level of risk we're each comfortable with and whether we're planing/betting on the "norm" or planning for the extreme. It's also good information and worth noting that the burden of proof in a civil trial is likely going to be less than in a criminal one.


I also thought the article was a good read, worse case scenario on overzealous prosecutor trying to get a conviction.


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Old 05-22-2019, 4:13 AM
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A good and justifiable shoot is a good and justifiable shoot.

The rest of this is pretty much nonsense. If you have to shoot someone, a trigger job is the least of your problems.
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Old 05-22-2019, 5:38 AM
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Here is a current civil case to keep an eye on. Homeowner was cleared of charges , but meth head burglars mother is filing civil case. Pays to have CCW insurance even if you don’t carry. https://www.10news.com/news/familyof...-sues-carowner

Here is a lawyer site trawling for civil cases: https://www.gilmanbedigian.com/man-w...wrongful-death

How many have CCW insurance like USCCA?
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Old 05-22-2019, 6:11 AM
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Again with this crap.

Show me one single guilty verdict or any civil case where a single extra dollar was awarded based on a gun mod in a good shoot. You can't. And again, I carry stock Glocks with good sights. My Glock 19 does have a little plug in the grip with an American flag etched in it, perhaps the prosecutor or civil attorney will try to say I am a rabid patriot out to shoot the redcoats.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:16 PM
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My comments in red, but hey, you do you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker View Post
What did you all think of the article ? Best one I’ve seen.
You are all right... in terms of good shoot / bad shoot it’s not relevant.

1. The cases where it’s been relevant are :
a. Negligent Discharge
That's a training issue. Trigger pull weight and mods aren't relevant.

b. Civil Suit where one has been cleared of criminal charges
Civil is Civil. You can be sued for anything. A burglar can sue you for injuring themselves after breaking in.

c. The possibility of having your CCW license revoked because you agreed to keeping your gun free from modifications that change it from original factory specifications.
That's IA specific, so you cannot apply it as a blanket.

d. Even if it’s struck down , that process can cost 10k in lawyers fees.
That's part of the defense process; good shoot or not and with or without mods.

I had this discussion this weekend with trainers , cops etc. Trigger mods are fine if they smooth the trigger but don’t lighten the pull weights. I just got a CGW package but am sending it back. Going to give my pistol instead to a good local Smith to polish and smooth out the action. Leave it stock.
No, that's fear mongering and misinterpretation of the disclaimer. The reason why it is advised not to lighten your trigger is for reliability. Too light can cause light primer strikes and malfunctions. This is why there are carry or duty packages available. Heck some departments allows authorized modifications for their officers.

In a rabid anti gunner environment, I don’t want my mods to be used against me.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Unless you are claiming that you didnt intend to pull the trigger, or the other side claims you didnt mean to shoot, utterly irrelevant to the issue of good shoot/bad shoot.

But what do i know?
Nothing, your just an internet lawyer
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:29 PM
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Interesting bit about handloads vs factory loads. I wonder if anyone has used some particularly mean-looking factory ammo, like RIP, and if it made any difference in the outcome of their case.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:31 PM
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Originally Posted by B yond View Post
I wonder if anyone has used some particularly mean-looking factory ammo, like RIP, and if it made any difference in the outcome of their case.
No, but all this FUD has sold a lot of books.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Following the FUD logic of that article, the big, bad lawyer would then ask the expert witness, “Why would someone invest time and money in training?” And the expert witness would reply, “to be better at killing people.”

That article is FILLED with FUD. There are quite a few “experts” out there making a pretty good living selling this kind of FUD. If you shoot someone, make sure it’s justifiable self-defense. If it is, then deadly force is deadly force. Period.
Fair points which all need consideration. Unfortunately the author like many lawyers has a bias of justifying his fees.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:42 PM
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Imho for a carry gun I like to keep it stock factory etc as that is the most reliable configuration possible.
Factory guns and their parts have much more time and money into their testing and function than any aftermarket part out there...
In the rarest event you will have to use it the most important thing is that it works if needed not how crisp or clean the trigger breaks etc.... when stressed out you will never know the difference and in all actuality having that extra couple pounds of trigger can be a God send if you happen to fumble....
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Old 05-22-2019, 4:12 PM
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It is how the DA and the defense attorney present their side of case to the jury. As a defense expert witness, I have successfully defended a defendant in a first degree murder trial. In my opinion, the prosecution did not have the proper charge on the case. The jury came back with not guilty verdict.
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Old 05-22-2019, 4:34 PM
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I put in a roller cam, aluminum heads, forged pistons, headers the works and spend endless hours at the trackrange, because I may never need it but if I ever do need to pull that switch it want it to be fast hot and true.

I would rather be sitting in a courtroom listening to my defense team defend my mods then sitting in a box listening to worms.


Spend one day at the range with your unmodified EDC being out shot by an untrained kid with an Apex trigger on the same weapon and you will stop reading these articles.
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Old 05-22-2019, 5:56 PM
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A stock factory gun is not necessarily "the most reliable configuration possible".

Proper action work can make many guns far more reliable.

Just sayin..........
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Old 05-22-2019, 6:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaJames83 View Post
Imho for a carry gun I like to keep it stock factory etc as that is the most reliable configuration possible.
Factory guns and their parts have much more time and money into their testing and function than any aftermarket part out there...
In the rarest event you will have to use it the most important thing is that it works if needed not how crisp or clean the trigger breaks etc.... when stressed out you will never know the difference and in all actuality having that extra couple pounds of trigger can be a God send if you happen to fumble....
That’s a great answer.

Last edited by JoyfulJoker; 05-22-2019 at 6:53 PM..
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Old 05-23-2019, 1:27 AM
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Anyone can develop a seemingly plausible line of evidence to support just about any belief.
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Old 05-23-2019, 9:27 AM
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I wasn’t looking for belief, I was looking for what actually happens in real world documented cases. Those are hard to find.



I can’t find any case where someone lost their CCW after a good shoot because they had a mod in violation of their license agreement. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened . I agreed to the terms in good faith so that doesn’t really matter.

Thanks for the insightful replies.

Last edited by JoyfulJoker; 05-23-2019 at 8:32 PM..
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker View Post
I wasn’t looking for belief, I was looking for what actually happens in real world documented cases. Those are hard to find.
(snip)

I'm sorry for any confusion, that wasn't directed at you. The contents of the article is good information. I think we can all agree that the attorneys in the article were simply trying to convey a message: "don't make it harder for us to defend you because of all the crap you added to your gun."

What I did mean was that anyone who is against us can argue anything based upon what they believe was wrong about our decision making... whether it's criticism of alterations made to the weapon or whatever else they can assemble.

Conversely however, our defense can argue anything in the opposite direction, too.

What should not ever be lost upon us is the quality of our decisions at the crucial moment in the first place. If we got "the big thing" (a justified use of force) in the right direction, we have a good foundation to successfully argue all the other small things in that direction, too.
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Old 05-23-2019, 1:31 PM
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No worries.
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Old 05-23-2019, 2:09 PM
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Which SO is your IA?
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Old 05-23-2019, 3:17 PM
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Having a 10-12 pound trigger pull weight is not safe on a 2 lb gun.
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Old 05-24-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDCarpenter View Post
Having a 10-12 pound trigger pull weight is not safe on a 2 lb gun.
Not many 10-12lbs triggers out there.......
But still under stress 10lbs won't feel like much
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Old 05-24-2019, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaJames83 View Post
Not many 10-12lbs triggers out there.......
But still under stress 10lbs won't feel like much
It might not feel like much under stress, but it sure could cause you to pull your shot off target and potentially hit an innocent bystander -- especially under stress.
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Old 05-24-2019, 2:32 PM
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It might not feel like much under stress, but it sure could cause you to pull your shot off target and potentially hit an innocent bystander -- especially under stress.
This. Just ask the NYPD.

My AI never asked about modifications to the firearm and never made me sign anything that stated I wouldn't modify my firearm in any way. When They did the "inspection" of my firearm, they didn't even rack the slide. Just collected the serial number and moved on.

Maybe I am just fortunate to live in a county where they don't care, but it seems to me the mods question is a "much ado about nothing" thing.

Short of the LEO who had the laser engraving on his service rifle's dust cover used against him in court after a bad shoot, I've never heard of any case where modifications were used against someone as evidence that the shoot was bad.
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Old 05-24-2019, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyfulJoker View Post
It wasn’t really clear to me WHY almost everyone from the IA to the instructors are telling us not to modify a CCW , especially reducing trigger pull weight.

I found this article that gave the clearest explanations of the cons from great sources.
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/en/gun-modifications

As much as I would love to do some mods , I’ll spend the money on training and ammo. In the anti gun fervor of the moment , a modified trigger can be used against us in both civil and criminal court. The article scared me straight.
I think your logic is sound. Understand the law, the risk/benefit of anything you decide to do, and spend the mod money on ammunition and good training.

That's coming from a guy who has several extensively modified carry guns, but now carries stock pistols (sights, RDS, or grip mods being the exception).

None of my mods were because I couldn't use the weapon effectively, but rather because I was just playing with new gear/mods and/or I was chasing the absolute tightest 25-yard groups I could get. If someone needs a mod to be able to achieve basic marksmanship competency then what they really need is appropriate training in appropriate quantities (excluding RDS for guys with sight challenges, and any other mod for people with physical issues (missing a finger, small hands, etc., they may need appropriate training plus mods for adaptation).

Overly light triggers may not be an issue at the range, but I have seen several premature discharges under pressure, including my own. So it's not just a question of what will happen in post-shooting litigation, but also what you can accept from a moral perspective. If--in a defense scenario--you shoot a bystander by accident because you have a light trigger and got on it a little too hard/soon under pressure, can you live with that?

That said, a 12 lbs trigger is ridiculous, the stock factory trigger closer to 5 lbs is plenty.
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Old 05-24-2019, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfbbq View Post
This. Just ask the NYPD.

My AI never asked about modifications to the firearm and never made me sign anything that stated I wouldn't modify my firearm in any way. When They did the "inspection" of my firearm, they didn't even rack the slide. Just collected the serial number and moved on.
This is it. If your IA approved your pistol then you are in a defensible position AFA the weapon mods angle is concerned. I had a fully customized 1911 on my first permit and the IA just typed the model number of the base gun and the caliber after they had me do my function check. When I amended I brought a Bulldog whose hammer I chopped with a Dremel. Again, they just listed the OEM model number and the caliber after the function check.
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Old 05-24-2019, 5:35 PM
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Modifying your gun comes down to:

1) Is it mechanically safe? (Meaning, no safeties were disabled, gun within factory spec)
2) CYA: Can you authenticate? This means you can state a clear and logical reason for the modification that satisfies #1.

For example, Mas Ayoob likes a NY-1 trigger spring with 3.5# connector in his Glocks. This smooths the trigger pull, creates a very positive reset, and increases the weight slightly. It is still within factory specification.

The reasons for these mods can be:
1) Smooth pull improves accuracy allowing better hits in a fighht.
2) Positive reset increases shooting speed while providing a more tactile reset click that is more noticeable under the effects of adrenaline.
3) Increases trigger pull weight increases mechanical gun safety.
4) The nature of the NY-1 trigger spring increases mechanical reliability. Standard trigger springs are a part that commonly breaks. The NY-1 trigger spring compresses instead.

People believe #3 should be “increases safety” but we all know violating the NRA gun safety rules is the real issue.

In summary, you have to think through your mods for a defensive firearm. Think about how it would sound while you were testifying in court or were on a jury listening to the defendant talk about it. Add in that a proper defense will take a jury specifically chosen for ignorance on guns, law, police procedure and defense to a trained jury of your “gun” peers and you will be fine. Your bank account is going to suffer no matter what; at least be free to replenish it after the legal proceedings end.
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Last edited by tomrkba; 05-24-2019 at 5:43 PM..
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Old 05-24-2019, 5:46 PM
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Again , great answers every one.

I wanted to install a Cajun Gun Works Package in a CZ Pistol. I actually own the package and will be sending it back. I was set to have it installed. That would violate the terms of my license in my county. If I ordered the same pistol from Cajun Gun Works with the same package and their warrantee , then they are the manufacturer. That’s not a violation. It’s the same result . Double Action Pull 8lbs, Single Action Pull 3 lbs 8oz., different hammer , different trigger, new springs , pins etc. All they did at my qualification did was write the serial number down, they did not test the trigger pull. If my dealers record of sale said CGW , it’ would be fine. I’ve chosen this pistol to be my primary training instrument . I’ll give it a year. If I still love it , then I’ll order another from CGW and and sell the stock one. . Right now the 1st Da pull is more than 10 but I’m training for proficiency with it. It’s a great gun.
In front of a jury a CGW pistol would be a non issue as it would be considered “Unmodified “.

Great insights , thank you . It’s the real world we have to consider.

Last edited by JoyfulJoker; 05-24-2019 at 6:09 PM..
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Old 05-24-2019, 7:54 PM
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^^ Slightly off-topic from the article you originally posted, but I suspect you're off track a bit with respect to CGW and your thinking here OP, but maybe you've done more detailed research and I am wrong . . .

I don't think it likely that a new CGW modified CZ makes CGW the manufacturer for purposes of most IA policies. Could be wrong on that depending what the IA policy says.

But on two related points: (1) a new CZ from CGW is not on the CA roster as it is not in the configuration as tested for the CZ models that are rostered, so you can't buy a CGW CZ unless exempt (assuming CA purchaser or course); and (2) as others have noted, anyone can argue anything to a jury, and I very much doubt any opposing counsel would have any difficulty making the argument that a particular CZ is modified by CGW package whether installed in a new gun by CGW and sold to you, installed by CGW after-market, by another gunsmith, or by yourself.

Everyone will need to be comfortable with their level of risk and the requirements of their IA of course. BTW, I own a P-06 with pro package and tuning by CGW, and have a P-01 waiting for the bench for the same treatment. Personally, I'd be fine carrying either if permitted by my IA.
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Old 05-25-2019, 6:40 AM
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More off topic:
My P-01 got called to be sent in to CGW but I wanted to support my local guy who is very good and has done many CZ tune ups and CGW installs. I cancelled and bought the pro package . I want to train with the same gun I carry for muscle memory purposes. Because of the requirements of my IA , that doesn’t seem to be possible with a CGW package. I came at it from every angle and there is no solution but to accept the limitations. We are allowed to use our Standard Mags so at least there is that. I’m not sure training with a gun with completely different action than what I carry would be useful in a high stress situation with my current level of proficiency.

That’s the end of the story. I’ll be sending the unopened box back to CGW ASAP.

Again , thanks everyone.
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