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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-21-2019, 8:26 PM
Ishootforblood Ishootforblood is online now
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Default Round and Round with PSA Canted front sight.

Here's my experience with PSA and with PSA customer service.

I wanted to build a 20" rifle with a full A2 Stock. I ordered in the PSA "Premium Rifle Kit". This is the kit with the FN Barrel, double chrome lined, machine gun steel barrel, and the other marketing hype that PSA uses to describe this package. I also ordered in the PSA Carry Handle sight.

I had a lower ready to go, so I didn't use their lower parts kit (FCG), but I did use the A2 Stock kit.

When I attempted to zero this rifle at 25 yards, I was about 8" right of the point of aim. I exceeded the mechanical limitation of the rear sight (all the way left) and I still wasn't zeroed.

I moved the carry handle sight to different rifle, and the carry handle sight appear to work properly. I then used several different rear sights on the PSA upper, and the upper continued to shoot about 8" to the right.

I contacted PSA several times by email, and they didn't respond. I called them, and after being placed on automated "hold" for 30 minutes, I spoke to a real person, and received a RMA # and a UPS return shipping label.

So Far; so good. Right? I shipped the upper back to PSA on 04/29/2019, and they returned it to me on 05/21/2019. There was no documentation in the box. Not a note; not a test target, not a letter: nothing.

The upper looks used, but I'm not convinced that it is the same upper I sent them.

I went straight to the range today (05/21/2019). I installed the PSA Carry handle, and ensured it was set to mechanical zero. Shooting groups at 25 yards, the rifle was grouping approximately 3" to the right. (That's better than 8") It took 20 clicks of windage adjustment (left) to get it zeroed at 25 yards. There isn't much adjustment left in the rear sight.

I don't have any idea what the PSA People did to the upper, or if they just sent me a less-canted upper that was returned by another customer.

I contacted my bank, and filed a Credit Card Dispute. I'm sure that's nothing new to PSA, and I suspect that most of their "blemished" sales come from people like me that just won't accept this from a $550.00 "Premium Rifle Kit". For all you guys that might say "PSA will make it right. PSA will take care of it" well....that wasn't my experience.

Attached are a couple of photos. The first two (2) photos is where the rear sight ended up with a 25 yard zero. The photo of the target is me starting and then walking the group over. The far left group was experiment: I adjusted the rear sight all the way to the left, and then brought it back to center (almost).

So, a $550.00 PSA kit, and a $75.00 PSA Carry Handle and a lower. I'm not satisfied with this.

The "take-away" is PSA sold me a POS, and had the opportunity to make it right. They failed.

Last edited by Ishootforblood; 06-14-2019 at 11:17 PM..
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  #2  
Old 05-21-2019, 8:40 PM
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It’s a PSA sooo idk what you expected? Would that have happened with a BCM? 👀
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2019, 8:52 PM
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sucks my psa upper for 230 works like a champ
wouldnt have expected a premium kit to be that way
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2019, 9:14 PM
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My kid has a 16, fn kit. Think he paid 600 2 years ago. The rifle runs good shoots 1 or less moa depending if I'm shooting or the kid that seems to get little clover leafs at 100.
Ive got 2 front sight uppers. Both have carry handles. One is a blem is about 3 clicks off to the right. The other upper is dead on. Go figure?

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  #5  
Old 05-21-2019, 9:17 PM
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OP,

Can you post a pic of your front sight? How canted is it?
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2019, 9:26 PM
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Does the front sight base have taper pins or set screws?

If set screws it doesn't take much adjusting in one direction of them to get you to center on your rear sight.

If taper pins then you'd have to brute force it. There's probably a youtube video on how to do that.
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  #7  
Old 05-22-2019, 6:15 AM
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Why not email them asking to return it for a refund before filing a credit dispute? Or did I miss something? I’ve had issues before with PSA stuff, but they did eventually make it right.
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  #8  
Old 05-22-2019, 6:40 AM
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It's not that uncommon to see a fsb canted from a manufacturer. Most people don't use their metal sights at long ranges and use the w&e adjustments. They don't complain.
If OP cannot get satisfaction from PSA then I'd have it fixed.
DO NOT gorilla fix the fsb! It needs a jig and the taper pin holes relocated with new pins installed.
Guys like ARbarrels can fix it.

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  #9  
Old 05-22-2019, 6:53 AM
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What ammo are you using ?
Did you try different ammo yet ?
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  #10  
Old 05-22-2019, 7:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishootforblood View Post
Here's my experience with PSA and with PSA customer service.

I wanted to build a 20" rifle with a full A2 Stock. I ordered in the PSA "Premium Rifle Kit". This is the kit with the FN Barrel, double chrome lined, machine gun steel barrel, and the other marketing hype that PSA uses to describe this package. I also ordered in the PSA Carry Handle sight.

I had a lower ready to go, so I didn't use their lower parts kit (FCG), but I did use the A2 Stock kit.

When I attempted to zero this rifle at 25 yards, I was about 8" right of the point of aim. I exceeded the mechanical limitation of the rear sight (all the way left) and I still wasn't zeroed.

I moved the carry handle sight to different rifle, and the carry handle sight appear to work properly. I then used several different rear sights on the PSA upper, and the upper continued to shoot about 8" to the right.

I contacted PSA several times by email, and they didn't respond. I called them, and after being placed on automated "hold" for 30 minutes, I spoke to a real person, and received a RMA # and a UPS return shipping label.

So Far; so good. Right? I shipped the upper back to PSA on 04/29/2019, and they returned it to me on 05/21/2019. There was no documentation in the box. Not a note; not a test target, not a letter: nothing.

The upper looks used, but I'm not convinced that it is the same upper I sent them.

I went straight to the range today (05/21/2019). I installed the PSA Carry handle, and ensured it was set to mechanical zero. Shooting groups at 25 yards, the rifle was grouping approximately 3" to the right. (That's better than 8") It took 20 clicks of windage adjustment (left) to get it zeroed at 25 yards. There isn't much adjustment left in the rear sight.

I don't have any idea what the PSA People did to the upper, or if they just sent me a less-canted upper that was returned by another customer.

I contacted my bank, and filed a Credit Card Dispute. I'm sure that's nothing new to PSA, and I suspect that most of their "blemished" sales come from people like me that just won't accept this from a $550.00 "Premium Rifle Kit". For all you guys that might say "PSA will make it right. PSA will take care of it" well....that wasn't my experience.

Attached are a couple of photos. The first two (2) photos is where the rear sight ended up with a 25 yard zero. The photo of the target is me starting and then walking the group over. The far left group was experiment: I adjusted the rear sight all the way to the left, and then brought it back to center (almost).

So, a $550.00 PSA kit, and a $75.00 PSA Carry Handle and a lower. I'm not satisfied with this.

The "take-away" is PSA sold me a POS, and had the opportunity to make it right. They failed.
The issue is mall ninja quality, that's where the thousand and ^^ uppers have the difference, the precision and materials, you get what you pay for. You paid for a 75 dollar handle sight mounting system modification, to install in a sport quality upper.

I suspect that the mounting handle is where the issue is, sight mounting too, but that's just another location that should be considered, could be mounted differently (torqued and or cross tighten) than when It was originally calibration at the manufacture.

It's a sportsman class upper and handle, not precision, a precision machined handle with mount should cost 2 to 4 hundred bucks, not $75.00, Mall Ninja stuff. Don't listen to those that say, all AR's are the same, now you know.
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  #11  
Old 05-22-2019, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow Dynamics View Post
Why not email them asking to return it for a refund before filing a credit dispute? Or did I miss something? I’ve had issues before with PSA stuff, but they did eventually make it right.
^this^

Only issue I've had was an ambi safety, they sent another and said keep first one.

None of my PSA uppers are premium, but all have surplus carry handle sights. Out of six, only one a 300 Blk Dissipator has rear sight off a few clicks from zero.
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2019, 7:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishootforblood View Post
Okay. Here we go: Show & Tell. It's a 20" barrel. PSA is really doing a discredit to the FN Name. The front sight is marked CH and F. Everything looks straight to my naked eye.
Do you have a marble counter top in your kitchen or bathroom?

Put the carry handle on the rifle and secure it well. Place the rifle inverted on the counter resting on the front sight and carry handle.

See if the rifle wobbles or if one of the front sight ears isn't touching the counter. There should be full contact with the counter, if you can slide a thin sheet of paper between one of the sight ears, it isn't on straight. This isn't the perfect or most scientific method for checking for a canted sight, but it will show misalignment.
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2019, 7:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishootforblood View Post
It took 20 clicks of windage adjustment (left) to get it zeroed at 25 yards.
You got it zeroed. I don't see what the problem is, nor whey you would dispute the charge on your credit card.

Adjustment is there to use, and if you use adjustments to zero the rifle, then that is exactly how it is supposed to work. What are you upset about, that you WERE able to zero the rifle after it was returned to you?
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  #14  
Old 05-22-2019, 8:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Spyder View Post
You got it zeroed. I don't see what the problem is, nor whey you would dispute the charge on your credit card.

Adjustment is there to use, and if you use adjustments to zero the rifle, then that is exactly how it is supposed to work. What are you upset about, that you WERE able to zero the rifle after it was returned to you?
This is technically true, but to a shooter like me, I like it as close to center as possible. It changes the overall sight picture, I have an AK like that,but it still shoots the same.
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  #15  
Old 05-22-2019, 8:29 AM
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OP didn't say what his ultimate goal for the upper is, but if he wanted to shoot it in a CMP across the cross match then you want your rear sight zero in middle with no cross wind. A 223 bullet takes a lot of windage clicks to hit the10 ring when shooting at 600 yards in a 20 mph full value cross wind. Unless only shooting at close range or in mythical range with no cross wind there is validity to want rear sight close to center.
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  #16  
Old 05-22-2019, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha_romeo_XV View Post
OP didn't say what his ultimate goal for the upper is, but if he wanted to shoot it in a CMP across the cross match then you want your rear sight zero in middle with no cross wind. A 223 bullet takes a lot of windage clicks to hit the10 ring when shooting at 600 yards in a 20 mph full value cross wind. Unless only shooting at close range or in mythical range with no cross wind there is validity to want rear sight close to center.
AR .223, hitting the10 Ring at 600 yards, 20 mph crosswind, lol.
Hitting the 10 ring, no wind, at 600 yards, lol.
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  #17  
Old 05-22-2019, 8:44 AM
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Why file a credit card dispute? You still have the rifle. Are you trying to get it for free now? I really don't understand the mentality of people who just file credit card disputes seemingly on a whim if they are unhappy with something. Yes, you contacted them and sent it in for warranty service. Yes, you are not happy with the results. But filing a dispute for something that is still in your possession makes no sense at all. Have you even tried asking them to take it back and issue you a refund????????
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  #18  
Old 05-22-2019, 8:46 AM
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When the sight is adjusted substantially off center, I though that the static line picture is useless, but I was wrong.

Last edited by tony270; 05-22-2019 at 11:33 AM.. Reason: Correction
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  #19  
Old 05-22-2019, 9:09 AM
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Filing the CC dispute was premature IMO
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Old 05-22-2019, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
AR .223, hitting the10 Ring at 600 yards, 20 mph crosswind, lol.
Hitting the 10 ring, no wind, at 600 yards, lol.
You sounded pretty smart at first, now you sound like an idiot.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:19 AM
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Before this thread goes completely to worms....It may be the "Carry Handle". I have a CMMG 9mm upper that I had a similar problem with. I bought a PSA Carry Handle, and I ran out of windage trying to get it to ZERO. I had other issues getting the gun to run so I sort of put the zero on the back burner. I have a Vortex Strikefire II on it now and it shoots fine.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
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Before this thread goes completely to worms....It may be the "Carry Handle". I have a CMMG 9mm upper that I had a similar problem with. I bought a PSA Carry Handle, and I ran out of windage trying to get it to ZERO. I had other issues getting the gun to run so I sort of put the zero on the back burner. I have a Vortex Strikefire II on it now and it shoots fine.
The OP said he moved the carry handle to another rifle, and it shot fine. He also tried other sights on his PSA, and the problem persisted.

The problem is not the carry handle.
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  #23  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:50 AM
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*adding on to my original post. You can drop the pins out of the fsb and fix it in place with bottom set screws. Drill/tap operation. That is IF the fsb is canted.

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  #24  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:51 AM
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Could be a canted FSB, or the barrel wasn't centered in the upper's notch on assembly. Either way, PSA needs to fix it.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 05-22-2019 at 10:55 AM..
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  #25  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony270 View Post
When the sight is adjusted substantially off center, the static line picture is useless, only the front sight post and rear round peep sight picture are usable.
I'm not sure what you mean here. The rear sight pushed to max windage still gives a perfect sight picture. Unless you meant it's useless since you can't adjust for windage.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:28 AM
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I'm not sure what you mean here. The rear sight pushed to max windage still gives a perfect sight picture. Unless you meant it's useless since you can't adjust for windage.
After studying the geometry, you are right, It won't have the same effect as it does with the AK, where the front sight post is adjusted inside the hood, on the AR the rear peep sight is moved separately from the front sight post and static lines.

I thought it might look like this:


Last edited by tony270; 06-05-2019 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
You sounded pretty smart at first, now you sound like an idiot.
AR platform, your the man, you can consistently hit the 10 ring on a shotgun target at 600 yards. The best that I can do is hit a 9" plate at 400, no wind though.


Last edited by tony270; 05-29-2019 at 11:10 AM..
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:54 AM
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AR platform, your the man, you can consistently hit the 10 ring on a shotgun target at 600 yards. The best that I can do is hit a 9" plate at 400, no wind though.
https://www.6mmbr.com/highpowerbasics.html
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:11 PM
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AR platform, your the man, you can consistently hit the 10 ring on a target at 600 yards.
Wish it was consistently...Still, your 9" at 400 is pretty decent.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 05-22-2019 at 12:16 PM..
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Old 05-22-2019, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolguy101 View Post
The OP said he moved the carry handle to another rifle, and it shot fine. He also tried other sights on his PSA, and the problem persisted.

The problem is not the carry handle.
That's fine, it was a problem on mine.
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Old 05-22-2019, 6:26 PM
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OP,

Take off the A2 handguards. IF the FSB is canted then your gas tube would be ever so slightly crooked.

Have you tried zeroing your rifle with a USGI carry handle instead of the PSA?
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Old 05-22-2019, 6:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemoe1 View Post
It’s a PSA sooo idk what you expected? Would that have happened with a BCM? 👀
1st reply about summed it up... Also, dont understand why you kept the rifle and filed a credit card dispute? Send it back if you dont like it and actually build the rifle you want.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:07 PM
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i have a similar issue with one of my PSA upper.

with rear sight on, i need to use half of my windage to get it zero'ed.

sent it back, and per their "test" it was stated that the upper has nothing wrong.

i decided to just mount an 2x optic on it and just not deal with it. i believe there is something off between the FSB, barrel and upper. cause i was near mechanical zero to get it zero'ed with the optic.
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Old 05-23-2019, 1:37 PM
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It's too bad that PSA seems to have a well known issue. Hopefully it gets resolved for you.
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Old 05-23-2019, 8:21 PM
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Dam that fsb is waaaayyyy off. Sad to see Palmetto cs is so bad. I would probably be filing a case with my credit card too. Thats not right. Hope you can get it resolved.
I love open sights. I'd be p****d if my front post was that off.

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  #36  
Old 05-23-2019, 8:50 PM
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This is a common issue with uppers using iron sights and being installed using an upper vice block. When tightening the barrel, the barrel assembly rotates in the upper a few thousands of an inch from the index pin slop in the upper, moving the front sight "left", which in turns makes you need to max out the windage to the left to zero. A few thousands off on the front sight equates to needing big changes on the rear sight. There is actually a section in the military TM manual on this issue. You can either use a breaker to keep the sight pulled to one side, shim the index pin notch, and enlarge to one side if needed. IMO it's best to assemble your own upper so you know it is done right... I usually use a breaker to hold the sight, then tighten, 25 meter test, then will shim the index pin if needed to center things up.
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Originally Posted By CTbuilder1 @ arfcom:
A lot of time and energy goes into thinking up ways to make perfectly good rifles into something dumb. Single shot ARs are gay. AR pistols are also gay. Just my opinion, of course, but a single shot AR pistol would be an AIDS cannon.

Last edited by superhondaz50; 05-23-2019 at 8:56 PM..
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  #37  
Old 05-23-2019, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishootforblood View Post
Thanks. I just realized that I had more photos of the PSA on my cell phone. Here it is when attempting to use the Daniel Defense A1.5 sight.

The zero target was NOT from the PSA. The zero target was shot with an assortment of parts I assembled. The accuracy primarily comes from the DD S2W barrel, a good trigger and the Leupold Patrol VXR 1.25x4. On that day, it grouped .355" at 55 yards. The blackened square measures .8" x .8".

I had high hopes for that PSA with the FN Barrel. Currently, they've drawn a line in the sand; won't take my calls, won't return email, and they will not issue a return number (RMA).

I want people to know the potential pitfalls of dealing with PSA & I want them to know I'm a shooter, and not a mag-dump blaster. Hey, thanks again.

EDIT: I tried and tried to sight in that PSA. I used the PSA Carry handle, Daniel Defense A1.5, Troy, and I even used an antique Rock River Arms Eotech Dominator; the original Dominator with A2 style Drum sight. Never seen a company behave like PSA. They should look at Brownells and Ruger as companies to emulate.
Why not post in the PSA section here or on ar15.com forum?

PSA has responded to posts in their section both here and ar15.com today.
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Old 05-23-2019, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by alpha_romeo_XV View Post
If taper pins then you'd have to brute force it. There's probably a youtube video on how to do that.
I did this to mine, fixed it right up. I don't remember how or I'd tell ya. I found a video on it I think.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:01 PM
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bummer. Sometimes they have interesting products... but I won't take that kind of risk. Thanks for heads up.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishootforblood View Post
I contacted my bank, and filed a Credit Card Dispute.
As far as I know, if filing a dispute for not as described or defective items, CC company will want you to take it to a so called expert and get a written letter to attest to your claims, which is a PITA and how many so called expert companies will want to waste their time to write that letter, so I never go that route.

2nd, I assume your setup is about $8-900 or so, well, as someone has stated, you get what you paid for, don't expect an 8-900 rifle to be put together as well as a 2+K one. I also have a Daniel Defense, which is almost 2.5x as much, it is pretty well made and have tight tolerance.

I bought a f**ked up AK once and it was not super cheap either, it was just that the manufacturer was a sham, it was much worse than yours, it looked like a snake, but it was all worked out with the dealer in the end, the manufacturer disappeared.

Quote:
$550.00 "Premium Rifle Kit"
$550 as premium, you got to be kidding.

Good luck...

Last edited by BZB; 05-23-2019 at 10:44 PM..
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