Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > CONCEALED CARRY/LICENSE TO CARRY > Concealed Carry Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-04-2019, 12:08 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default CCW in the movies: Hotel Mumbai

I watched the movie Hotel Mumbai recently, based on a true story of a terrorist attack at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel in 2008 (among other locations in Mumbai).

In the movie, terrorists took over a major hotel and held several hundred people hostage. People were hiding in various parts of the hotel to avoid being seen/killed by the ruthless terrorists who arbitrarily shot dozens of people.

The movie is pretty well made and gives you the feeling that you are there. I found myself thinking a lot about what I would do if I were ever in that situation... being a CCW holder and all.

I thought about how helpless these people were against these guys, and also thought about how do you deal with guys who have rifles, automatic and lots of ammo... How do I escape ... or if trapped like that, Where would I hide ... ambush them or just how to defend yourself, loved ones and other people from these guys, who attacked at such an unexpected time.

For sure it made me think about always carrying (sometimes I don't) and also having a spare mag... standard caps for sure... I often carry a 1911 with 8 rounds, sometimes even without any spare mag handy... on a day like this I sure would have been thinking how I probably should have brought the Glock with a 15rd mag and a spare.

Anyone else see the movie? What you think?


.

Last edited by caliberetta; 05-05-2019 at 9:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-04-2019, 4:04 PM
SnWnMe's Avatar
SnWnMe SnWnMe is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The 951
Posts: 6,235
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

In the US, rifle involved shootings are perpetrated by one (or two at the most) shooters. You use your CCW to get away.

Most people will take cover when faced with incoming fire no matter how wide or random.

Take advantage of this fact.
__________________
Frank Da Tank
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-04-2019, 10:29 PM
Unforgiven's Avatar
Unforgiven Unforgiven is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sacramento Ca.
Posts: 741
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

Shooters do not expect to face any resistance, hide, then ambush, if that’s your only way to survive. That’s my movie plan.
__________________
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.

Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-04-2019, 10:43 PM
CessnaDriver's Avatar
CessnaDriver CessnaDriver is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,333
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Well, you're well out gunned.
So you're going to lose at some point.
Not much you can do about that,
Movie rules....
wait until there are few enough to ambush,
capture weapons and arm more good guys.
__________________
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/signaturepics/sigpic28512_1.gif

"Yeah, like... well, I just want to slap a hippie or two. Maybe even make them get jobs."

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:05 AM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CessnaDriver View Post
Well, you're well out gunned.
So you're going to lose at some point.
Not much you can do about that,
Movie rules....
wait until there are few enough to ambush,
capture weapons and arm more good guys.

That's what I thought too.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-05-2019, 2:12 AM
Notorious's Avatar
Notorious Notorious is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,620
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

SERE: Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape

Against a whole group of well armed and fanatical terrorists who have no qualms about random murders, and you only have a pistol with 1 reload, be the wiser man and choose discretion over blind courage.

I would not force any confrontations and would seek to escape intact to find reinforcements and supply whatever intelligence I could. That would help infinitely more than me taking out 1 or 2 terrorists with my pistol.

But if confronted and the situation is not stacked against me like 10 armed terrorists against me, I would not hesitate to shoot immediately. There would be no attempt to capture or negotiate or reason. Shoot the 1 or 2 terrorists by surprise, use speed, get it over with. Run and hide and escape.
__________________
Guns! More guns! I need more guns!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-05-2019, 9:34 AM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
SERE: Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape

Against a whole group of well armed and fanatical terrorists who have no qualms about random murders, and you only have a pistol with 1 reload, be the wiser man and choose discretion over blind courage.

I would not force any confrontations and would seek to escape intact to find reinforcements and supply whatever intelligence I could. That would help infinitely more than me taking out 1 or 2 terrorists with my pistol.

But if confronted and the situation is not stacked against me like 10 armed terrorists against me, I would not hesitate to shoot immediately. There would be no attempt to capture or negotiate or reason. Shoot the 1 or 2 terrorists by surprise, use speed, get it over with. Run and hide and escape.
^^^ Excellent notes
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-05-2019, 1:59 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVQpbp54ljA
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:17 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
I watched the movie Hotel Mumbai recently, based on a true story of a terrorist attack at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel in 2008 (among other locations in Mumbai).

In the movie, terrorists took over a major hotel and held several hundred people hostage. People were hiding in various parts of the hotel to avoid being seen/killed by the ruthless terrorists who arbitrarily shot dozens of people.

The movie is pretty well made and gives you the feeling that you are there. I found myself thinking a lot about what I would do if I were ever in that situation... being a CCW holder and all.

I thought about how helpless these people were against these guys, and also thought about how do you deal with guys who have rifles, automatic and lots of ammo... How do I escape ... or if trapped like that, Where would I hide ... ambush them or just how to defend yourself, loved ones and other people from these guys, who attacked at such an unexpected time.

For sure it made me think about always carrying (sometimes I don't) and also having a spare mag... standard caps for sure... I often carry a 1911 with 8 rounds, sometimes even without any spare mag handy... on a day like this I sure would have been thinking how I probably should have brought the Glock with a 15rd mag and a spare.

Anyone else see the movie? What you think?
You really need to tighten up your questions and scenarios. Are you talking about being a guest in a hotel overseas or in USA? (brings up issue of guns allowed in foreign country, esp by foreigner (i.e, you).)

If in USA, did you drive there or fly (rules re. guns & ammo on planes)? If within CA, again, did you fly or drive?

You mention being a (CA?) CCWer, well, many states don't extend reciprocity to CA CCWs since CA does not recognize any other state's CCWs.

Are you extending your thinking to an attack against a high rise apartment (landlord), condo (HOA), or office building (landlord and lease holder/employer)? That tweaks it since the first two are residences and the third a workplace, and thus may have different rules/laws re. what you can keep there and what you can carry there.

The BGs used hand grenades too. They put bombs in taxis to explode later in different locations to confuse LE. The BGs had trained for 3 months in general physical prep and skills (think bootcamp), and then once the team of 10 was selected from the best, they went on to 5 more months of advanced training. They used steroids and other drugs, brought snacks and water. They were well prepared and equipped. They worked in small teams of 2, covering each other. Used hand grenades first, then AK fire (like at Westgate). A month before the attacks, they made themselves familiar with the layout of their targets and nearby streets by reviewing maps, charts and videos, so that they knew the Kill Zones better than responding LEOs. They were ordered to "target whites, preferably Americans and British" and told killing a Jew was worth killing 50 non-Jews.

Are you wondering how to prepare for something like that? Or for some young man with a AR who a month earlier decides to shoot up a synagogue and when he does, he doesn't know how to properly use his rifle or how to clear it when it jams?

FWIW, after Mumbai, Westgate and Paris, I spent a lot of time thinking about these scenarios. There are good documentaries online. Mumbai was a lot more extensive than just the Taj....

Like I said, there's a lot to think through. Fortunately, you're more likely to be killed by lightening, so focus on everyday street threats (see link in my sig line) -- EDC CCW and pepper spray and obey "the 4-S Rule" (avoid being around Stupid people, avoid going to Stupid places, avoid doing Stupid things and avoid being out at Stupid times.
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif

Last edited by Paladin; 05-08-2019 at 10:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-06-2019, 9:24 AM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

To help stimulate your thinking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDROrLtc6GM
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-07-2019, 9:19 AM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,912
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

1. Don’t watch movies.
2. Don’t go to Mumbai.

You can’t plan for everything. If you are in the hotel lobby, and a force of ten enters and shoots you dead, no amount of previous planning can help you.

Better to spend time on working the real-world life issues so when you try to do the “right” thing, you don’t get popped by an accomplice.

__________________
"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”
"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool."
"The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-07-2019, 9:45 AM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
To help stimulate your thinking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDROrLtc6GM

I watched the whole thing - it's a great documentary to watch, especially after seeing the move -- thanks for posting that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
1. Don’t watch movies.
2. Don’t go to Mumbai.

You can’t plan for everything. If you are in the hotel lobby, and a force of ten enters and shoots you dead, no amount of previous planning can help you.

Better to spend time on working the real-world life issues so when you try to do the “right” thing, you don’t get popped by an accomplice.


Don't watch movies, don't go to mumbai. Don't fight 10 assailants. Spend more time thinking about real world scenarios, and watch more YouTube shooting clips.

... gee, thanks for the infinite wisdom, Dad. Not sure what we would do without you, but now I know. (no movies. no mumbai. think more. watch youtube -- got it).
.

Last edited by caliberetta; 05-07-2019 at 9:53 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:10 AM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,912
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Don't watch movies, don't go to mumbai. Don't fight 10 assailants. Spend more time thinking about real world scenarios, and watch more YouTube.
... gee, thanks for the infinite wisdom, Dad. Not sure what we would do without you.
Thanks, son. At least you acknowledge who’s your Daddy.

Lack of perspective on what you can and cannot overcome will make you a dour soul.

You do realize that the clips posted by Paladin (which you praised) are also YouTube, right? So you’d rather watch YouTube on something that happened in a third world nation years ago than a relatively recent real-life feed of a CCW incident in the US?

Worrying about one-off, orchestrated assaults by paramilitary groups seems far less beneficial than paying attention to a real-world two-shooter team wandering into Walmart on a sunny day on Main Street, USA.

As Paladin suggested, take a look at his sig block and review the real interactions listed there. It’s a better use of your time and planning efforts.

Best.
__________________
"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”
"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool."
"The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first."

Last edited by Dvrjon; 05-07-2019 at 9:15 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-07-2019, 8:48 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

For those unfamiliar with it, the 4-S Rule says avoid being around Stupid people, avoid going to Stupid places, avoid doing Stupid things and avoid being out at Stupid times. If you are young and naive, just ask your parents to give you examples of each. If, for whatever reason, you can't EDC a CCW, EDC at least pepper spray (which you should EDC even if you EDC a CCW since not all incidents call for deadly force). (I added this 4-S Rule definition to my previous post.)
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif

Last edited by Paladin; 05-08-2019 at 10:57 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:36 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
(snip)

Worrying about one-off, orchestrated assaults by paramilitary groups seems far less beneficial than paying attention to a real-world two-shooter team wandering into Walmart on a sunny day on Main Street, USA.

(snip)


Dear Dad Now I understand the value of your advise, but a 2-shooter team wandering into walmart (yes I know about that couple in Nevada) is hardly less of a "one-off" scenario than what happened in Mumbai... all the shooting videos on YouTube are extremely rare to begin with.

The movie seemed to be a very accurate representation of a true to life event that any concealed carrier can learn from. Check it out.

The Documentary Paladin posted is very good too.
.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:49 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

(1) Did the movie mention that some victims were tortured while they were alive? I've read that some survivors who hid heard blood curdling screams from people the terrorists found, a far different sound than that from people who were just shot.

(2) Re. the topic of this thread: unless you work or live in a high profile location that terrorists might target, you should just focus on everyday threats (as has been said). However, when you go on vacation you are much more likely to visit potential terrorist targets, and thus (if you fear this sort of thing), you should carry MORE than just your EDC rig. But, ironically, that's when you're most likely not to carry due to reciprocity issues (or vacationing outside of the US), or carry less due to lighter clothing for summer vacations.
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:25 AM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
(1) Did the movie mention that some victims were tortured while they were alive? I've read that some survivors who hid heard blood curdling screams from people the terrorists found, a far different sound than that from people who were just shot.

(2) Re. the topic of this thread: unless you work or live in a high profile location that terrorists might target, you should just focus on everyday threats (as has been said). However, when you go on vacation you are much more likely to visit potential terrorist targets, and thus (if you fear this sort of thing), you should carry MORE than just your EDC rig. But, ironically, that's when you're most likely not to carry due to reciprocity issues (or vacationing outside of the US), or carry less due to lighter clothing for summer vacations.
Hi Paladin, see response below:

1) I don't recall seeing any prolonged torture, but the movie didn't seem to hold back on any brutality at all. It was pretty real, as corroborated by the facts presented on the Documentary.

2) What happened at that hotel is not much different from terrorism that has occurred right here in the US.

There were 4 terrorists that infiltrated the hotel. They broke up in teams of 2 each.... This is very familiar in the US.

We can start with North Hollywood in 1997. Columbine 1999. Las Vegas 2014. San Bernardino 2015. All teams of 2. Many more.

The only thing that made Mumbai different from so many acts of terrorism right here in the US is the pathetic lack of Police Response.

As seen in the documentary, the only police response at the hotel for several hours was a small team that was armed with a revolver and 5-shot bolt action rifles... mind boggling ... considering the population in Mumbai at that time was in the multi-millions. They had nothing remotely close to SWAT.
.

Last edited by caliberetta; 05-17-2019 at 10:36 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:31 AM
Notorious's Avatar
Notorious Notorious is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,620
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

From what I've seen and read, most of the cops weren't even armed or had no ammunition. The others had WW2 Lee-Enfield rifles. They weren't trained nor equipped for anything remotely close to handling this situation.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:13 AM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
From what I've seen and read, most of the cops weren't even armed or had no ammunition. The others had WW2 Lee-Enfield rifles. They weren't trained nor equipped for anything remotely close to handling this situation.
There were only 2 BGs (without helmets or body armor) at the train station. Distances involved were under 100 yards. Two teams (1 team to target 1 BG) of a spotter and sniper could easily and quickly taken care of them. Even two teams of 2 or 3 trained riflemen. (See at ~12 min into the documentary.) But they didn't....

Bad training.
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif

Last edited by Paladin; 05-17-2019 at 11:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-17-2019, 11:57 AM
Old_Bald_Guy's Avatar
Old_Bald_Guy Old_Bald_Guy is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Posts: 2,889
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Why is North Hollywood used as an example here? Bank robbery, not terrorism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
"Almost every reform movement has a lunatic fringe, but here, the fringe is apparently sane."
― Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:16 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Why is North Hollywood used as an example here? Bank robbery, not terrorism.

Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:23 PM
thetruecheese thetruecheese is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 323
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.

post 9/11 america is really amusing.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-17-2019, 1:04 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruecheese View Post
post 9/11 america is really amusing.

It's the changing landscape of self defense in America.

These things make you rethink whether our skills and what we are carrying is hardly even enough to have a chance at surviving. I used to think a reliable semi-auto and 10rds is good enough. Not anymore.

We are taught most CCW encounters are over within a "few rounds" fired within "a few yards."

I distinctly recall my CCW instructor several years ago saying "... a shot within 3 yards is self defense ... 20 yards would be murder."

While that could be true some time ago, it is no longer true in today's changing landscape of self defense. We may be called upon (forced) to deal with more than one assailant and even take a longer range shot than we have the skills for (in Orange County, qualification for CCW involves a 3, 5 and 7 yards shots).

In light of the changing landscape of self defense, we would be well served to adapt by: recognizing the potential for terrorism, being prepared to escape/hide/take cover, ambush, carry greater capacity ammo and the skills that extend farther beyond simply being able to take a shot within just 7 yards.

Suddenly the Standard Cap decision seems to make sense more than ever, and even trying out that RMR/Red Dot on the pistol that allows you to take a more accurate shot from a distance suddenly seems to makes sense too.

Last edited by caliberetta; 05-17-2019 at 2:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-17-2019, 1:54 PM
Notorious's Avatar
Notorious Notorious is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,620
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Forget the sniper and spotter. A decent marksman with the SMLE can take them out at that distance.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-17-2019, 2:32 PM
Bigdog68 Bigdog68 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 104
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Watch Strikeback. They did a two episoder on being stuck in a hotel Mumbai event. Start with one bad guy and go from there.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-17-2019, 2:53 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdog68 View Post
Watch Strikeback. They did a two episoder on being stuck in a hotel Mumbai event. Start with one bad guy and go from there.

Found it. Season 1, Episode's 1 & 2. Not bad for $2 each, I think free on Amazon Prime. I think I'll check it out this weekend.... thanks

Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-17-2019, 3:56 PM
Old_Bald_Guy's Avatar
Old_Bald_Guy Old_Bald_Guy is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Posts: 2,889
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.


Dude, you need to look up that word.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
"Almost every reform movement has a lunatic fringe, but here, the fringe is apparently sane."
― Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-17-2019, 5:32 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Dude, you need to look up that word.

Are we going to talk about Self Defense or start googling word meanings like a bunch of idiots?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-17-2019, 6:05 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,912
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.
Son, I would suggest that your loose definition gives too much credit and purpose to general, run-of-the-mill *****holes.

Terrorism requires a political goal. The Government even defined “domestic terrorism” for us:
Quote:
Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.
-Bonnie and Clyde weren’t terrorists. They were criminals.
-Willie Sutton robbed banks because, in his words, “That’s where they keep the money.”
-The North Hollywood shooters weren’t terrorists, they were bank robbers.
-The kids at Columbine didn’t have a political agenda, they were just *****Holes abandoned by their *****Hole parents.
-Shooting folks in churches isn’t a political act. It’s religion or race-based.
-The San Bernardino shootings: “According to the FBI's investigation, the perpetrators were ‘homegrown violent extremists’ inspired by foreign terrorist groups. They were not directed by such groups and were not part of any terrorist cell or network.” They were *****holes. (One was a pi$$Ed off county employee).

-The crews in Mumbai had a political agenda, making it a terrorist act.
-Bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City was a terrorist act.
-Islamists driving airplanes into buildings in NY was a terrorist act.
-Islamists trying to drive airplanes into the Pentagon was a terrorist act.
-Islamists dropping a plane in Pennsylvania was a terrorist act.
-The 2014 killing of two police officers and draping the bodies with Gadsden flags, by right-wing nutcakes (my term) who later killed themselves in the back of Walmart (hence the term), was a terrorist act.

CCW plans wouldn’t have helped against these terrorists, (unless we allow concealed carry on airplanes )

CCW plans would have helped against the bank robbers and *****holes.

The world contains far less “terrorists” than *****holes.

Train accordingly.

Best.
__________________
"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.”
"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool."
"The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first."
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-17-2019, 7:52 PM
caliberetta's Avatar
caliberetta caliberetta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 2,419
iTrader: 107 / 100%
Default

You guys are a bunch of gems.

Nobody cares about the objective or reason if one is faced with an aggressor with a gun pointed at you.

When you leave out all the "isms" you are left with only one thing - Terror.

Feel free to complicate it.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:40 PM
Paladin's Avatar
Paladin Paladin is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: SFBA
Posts: 9,102
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Forget the sniper and spotter.
The "spotter" (observer) in this case would be to tell the sniper" (the shooter) when he has a clear shot that would not take out innocents in the packed train station, who might be running in front of or behind the BG they're assigned to take out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
A decent marksman with the SMLE can take them out at that distance.
And that's why I wrote ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
There were only 2 BGs (without helmets or body armor) at the train station. Distances involved were under 100 yards. Two teams (1 team to target 1 BG) of a spotter and sniper could easily and quickly taken care of them. Even two teams of 2 or 3 trained riflemen. (See at ~12 min into the documentary.) But they didn't....

Bad training.
The real problem, beside lack of training (primarily) and equipment (secondary), was fear due to "the fog of war." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war

Of the LEOs at the train station, I wonder how many of them had any military training? How many had any combat experience, either as LEOs in gun fights, or in the military?
__________________
Never mistake being delusional for being optimistic.

230+ examples of CCWs Saving Lives.

KnifeRights.org/images/KRbanner_468x60-1.gif

Last edited by Paladin; 05-18-2019 at 12:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:57 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.