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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 03-13-2019, 4:20 PM
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I just love how they completely ignore motorcycles in all of this. I will continue to consider my locking saddlebags to qualify as locked utility boxes, or something equally valid under the law.


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  #42  
Old 03-15-2019, 5:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
I just love how they completely ignore motorcycles in all of this. I will continue to consider my locking saddlebags to qualify as locked utility boxes, or something equally valid under the law.
If the locked saddlebags are permanently affixed to the vehicle, then it meets CA laws. [PC 25140(d)(1)(B)]



Penal Code 25140
(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.
(d)(1) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:
(B) “Locked toolbox or utility box” means a fully enclosed container that is permanently affixed to the bed of a pickup truck or vehicle that does not contain a trunk, and is locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or other similar locking device.
(E) “Vehicle” has the same meaning as specified in Section 670 of the Vehicle Code.

Vehicle Code 670
A “vehicle” is a device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.
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  #43  
Old 03-15-2019, 6:27 PM
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^^^^nicely done.^^^^
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  #44  
Old 03-19-2019, 10:45 AM
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Anything wrong with falling back to the lowest common denominator for ccw or non-ccw: unloaded, locked case, out of sight?
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  #45  
Old 03-21-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustard View Post
Anything wrong with falling back to the lowest common denominator for ccw or non-ccw: unloaded, locked case, out of sight?
It's a lot more discrete to take the gun off my belt while leaving it in the holster and putting it in a lock box than it would be to take the gun out and unload it first.
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  #46  
Old 03-21-2019, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mustard View Post
Anything wrong with falling back to the lowest common denominator for ccw or non-ccw: unloaded, locked case, out of sight?
Nope, but the downside is you have to handle the gun in public twice to unload and reload. That not only increases the opportunity to be seen and/or discharge the gun, it also slows your transition to rearm when returning to the vehicle.
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  #47  
Old 03-21-2019, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
^^^^nicely done.^^^^


I should’ve been more specific. “Permanently affixed,” as applied pragmatically, is obviously a continuum. Motorcycle saddlebags — even hard bags with keyed locking mechanisms — definitely don’t occupy the same spot on that continuum that utility boxes mounted in pickup truck beds occupy. At some point along the line, pragmatically permanently affixed becomes temporarily affixed.




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  #48  
Old 03-21-2019, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
I should’ve been more specific. “Permanently affixed,” as applied pragmatically, is obviously a continuum. Motorcycle saddlebags — even hard bags with keyed locking mechanisms — definitely don’t occupy the same spot on that continuum that utility boxes mounted in pickup truck beds occupy. At some point along the line, pragmatically permanently affixed becomes temporarily affixed.
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Pragmatically, nothing is permanently affixed to any vehicle...drop by Pick ‘n Pull and watch.
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2019, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
It’s basically a safe that is attached to your vehicle. It just happens to be hidden out of sight inside your console. In other words, it’s not your console, it’s a safe attached inside your console. Unlike other locked containers, it can’t be removed (along with your gun) if your vehicle ever gets broken into. It was actually recommended to me by the sheriff’s investigator who did my last CCW renewal. When I told him I already had one, he said, “You’re way ahead of the game.”
Except for models such as these which are essentially locking lids for your center console. Although no one has been prosecuted, it is not a safe in itself.
https://www.amazon.com/Sunluway-Security-Console-Wrangler-Current
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  #50  
Old 03-22-2019, 8:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Pragmatically, nothing is permanently affixed to any vehicle...drop by Pick ‘n Pull and watch.

True, and yet another example of the continuum nature of the attachment of anything to anything else. We’ll likely agree that using duct tape to affix a locking plastic file box to the side of a motorcycle obviously occupies too proximal a position on the road from ephemeral connection to, let’s say for the sake of my sanity, the pragmatically defined point at the other extreme at which you gotta employ Pick ‘n’ Pull methodology. At which point does the degree of affixedness exhibit sufficient similarity to Pick ‘n’ Pulledness and sufficient dissimilarity to duct tapedness? They don’t define it, and we probably don’t want them to. That means someone has to interpret it in the field.




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  #51  
Old 03-22-2019, 9:36 PM
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My sport-touring bike's bags have three positions for the tumbler lock on the bags/cases. Center is locked, right opens the case, and left unlatches the mechanism to remove the case from the frame. The frame is really only a subframe anyway and is secured by three bolts and a grommet through the exhaust flange. All could be removed in not too much time by a middling thief. Motorcycles simply aren't built for security of their contents, be it saddle, trunk or underseat locked areas.

About the only thing that is secure is a gun lock / clamp welded to the frame. Even then, stealing a bike is incredibly easy given a trailer and two strong people.

I wouldn't leave anything of value, let alone a firearm in my case or on the bike unless I keep a visual on it at all times. Whatever is valuable comes with me when I dismount, via the bag's handle, with the case still being locked.

I'm not picking my kid up on the bike most anytime, and can work around the other issues if that's my only mode of transportation at that time.
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  #52  
Old 03-23-2019, 5:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
True, and yet another example of the continuum nature of the attachment of anything to anything else. We’ll likely agree that using duct tape to affix a locking plastic file box to the side of a motorcycle obviously occupies too proximal a position on the road from ephemeral connection to, let’s say for the sake of my sanity, the pragmatically defined point at the other extreme at which you gotta employ Pick ‘n’ Pull methodology. At which point does the degree of affixedness exhibit sufficient similarity to Pick ‘n’ Pulledness and sufficient dissimilarity to duct tapedness? They don’t define it, and we probably don’t want them to. That means someone has to interpret it in the field.

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I suspect the answer lies in the “toolage” needed to de-fix the container from the vehicle. A simple pocket knife would suffice for duct tape, whilst a set of metric hammers (in the 1-10 kilo range) might be needed in other scenarios. Of course, the technique applied would also come into play. A screw driver, applied in common fashion to attachment screws versus a screwdriver used to prise apart a riveted attachment, for example (or, even paired with the hammers and used as an ersatz chisel) comes to mind.

It is yet one more reason I don’t miss my bike.
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  #53  
Old 03-25-2019, 7:59 AM
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Good points, DVR and Robo. I’ve never left a gun unattended in my bike. I take the liberty of considering the hard bags to fit the definition of the law, but since I’ve never put it into practice it’s been a moot categorization so far.

There’s this particular law and then there’s security, and the latter is the higher bar. Interestingly, I’ve been hauling camera gear around in the bags of every bike I’ve had for years, parking them unattended in many different places. They’ve never been tampered with. I’ve left riding gear unsecured on the bike (out of the bags) — helmet, most frequently, but on occasion a jacket, even an Arlen Ness leather jacket once — no theft or tampering. Part of this is probably due to the tendency of motorcyclists (riders, bikers, and any other sub-classification that may apply) to leave each others’ stuff alone. Maybe another part of it is a general hesitancy on the part if non-riding thieves to mess with certain types of motorcycles due to whatever TV-fueled stereotypes they may buy into (not to mention the fact that sometimes, with some people, those stereotypes are fairly accurate).


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  #54  
Old 04-17-2019, 6:13 PM
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[QUOTE=Quiet;22762024]And it meets CA's legal requirements. [PC 25140(a)]
^See part in bold below.


Penal Code 25140
(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.


So is ammo or loaded mags allowed in the lock console safe with the gun or does mags and ammo must be lock in a separate lock box?
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  #55  
Old 04-17-2019, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bongos View Post
So is ammo or loaded mags allowed in the lock console safe with the gun or does mags and ammo must be lock in a separate lock box?
There are no legal requirements associated with transporting or storing ammo *** ETA except school grounds - see below - TY, OBG ***. Carry it any way you find convenient. There are places where one may not have a a loaded gun, so don't carry ammo in the gun in those circumstances.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Last edited by Librarian; 04-17-2019 at 7:45 PM..
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  #56  
Old 04-17-2019, 6:49 PM
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Default Locking CCW in car

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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
There are no legal requirements associated with transporting or storing ammo.
Not entirely true.

§ 30310
(a) Unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, the superintendent’s designee, or equivalent school authority, no person shall carry ammunition or reloaded ammunition onto school grounds, except sworn law enforcement officers acting within the scope of their duties.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
...
10) (A) A person carrying ammunition or reloaded ammunition onto school grounds that is in a motor vehicle at all times and is within a locked container or within the locked trunk of the vehicle.
(B) For purposes of this paragraph, the term “locked container” has the same meaning as set forth in Section 16850.
(c) A violation of this section is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a term not to exceed six months, a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both the imprisonment and fine.


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  #57  
Old 04-17-2019, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Postal employees will often suspend their routine car search programs in situations like that.
lol
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  #58  
Old 04-17-2019, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
There are no legal requirements associated with transporting or storing ammo *** ETA except school grounds - see below - TY, OBG ***. Carry it any way you find convenient. There are places where one may not have a a loaded gun, so don't carry ammo in the gun in those circumstances.
Remind me again, does ammo in a magazine in the same container as the firearm count as a loaded firearm? I think it only does for certain enhancements, but am always forgetting this one. Acknowledged that this question only applies to CA. FED law wants the ammo in a separate container from the firearm.
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Old 04-17-2019, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Robotron2k84 View Post
Remind me again, does ammo in a magazine in the same container as the firearm count as a loaded firearm? I think it only does for certain enhancements, but am always forgetting this one. Acknowledged that this question only applies to CA. FED law wants the ammo in a separate container from the firearm.
No, ammo in a magazine in the same container as the firearm DOES NOT count as a loaded firearm; there are situations where possession of both the gun and ammo for it make that gun 'loaded', but mags are irrelevant.

Fedlaw is for interstate transport, not at issue here.

See also the wiki http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in..._in_California Note that the page pre-dates the re-numbering of the PC, so uses old code numbers.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


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Last edited by Librarian; 04-17-2019 at 8:41 PM..
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  #60  
Old 04-17-2019, 9:31 PM
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^ Excellent! Thanks again.
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  #61  
Old 04-26-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Erion929 View Post
If you have a CCW, it just needs to be locked up....not unloaded.

.
I believe the above is correct...

Except: 100% verboten at post office including parking lot...

Must be unloaded in locked container on School grounds and ammo gotta be locked up too....

I "Heard" somewhere... if the gun is loaded, the locked container must be attached to car.... (The cable thingy)... if unloaded, locked container need not be attached to car....

Image shown OK for airtravel... no bullet in chamber

IMG_1563a.jpg
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  #62  
Old 04-27-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
It’s basically a safe that is attached to your vehicle. It just happens to be hidden out of sight inside your console. In other words, it’s not your console, it’s a safe attached inside your console. Unlike other locked containers, it can’t be removed (along with your gun) if your vehicle ever gets broken into. It was actually recommended to me by the sheriff’s investigator who did my last CCW renewal. When I told him I already had one, he said, “You’re way ahead of the game.”
I have a LEO relative that told me that their LE department considered a gun safe that was cabled to the vehicle (e.g., in the trunk, cabled through a bolted down cargo tie down) to NOT be ‘attached’ to the car ... because it wasn’t ‘permanently’ attached. He said they had popped people for that ... as well as having an unloaded gun in a locked container but not “transporting it to a specific location for a legal purpose (e.g., the shooting range)”. That is, he said simply having the unloaded gun in a locked container, for the general purpose of having it available in case of a need for self defense, was illegally transporting. His advice was to have a shooting bag too, and always say you’re on the way to the range. This all seems just so ridiculous.
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Old 04-27-2019, 1:46 PM
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Default Locking CCW in car

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcasa View Post
I have a LEO relative that told me that their LE department considered a gun safe that was cabled to the vehicle (e.g., in the trunk, cabled through a bolted down cargo tie down) to NOT be ‘attached’ to the car ... because it wasn’t ‘permanently’ attached. He said they had popped people for that ...
He’s either lying to you, or he’s “popped” people illegally for something that’s perfectly legal right now. AB 688 seeks to require permanent attachment, but here’s the current law:


25140.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.






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  #64  
Old 04-27-2019, 4:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dawgcasa View Post
I. He said they had popped people for that ... as well as having an unloaded gun in a locked container but not “transporting it to a specific location for a legal purpose (e.g., the shooting range)”. That is, he said simply having the unloaded gun in a locked container, for the general purpose of having it available in case of a need for self defense, was illegally transporting.
He and his department are wrong on the law.

"Destination requirements" apply to 'assault weapons' and to handguns OUTSIDE A VEHICLE transported by those without CCW.

See the wiki, http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...e=Transporting
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #65  
Old 04-27-2019, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
He’s either lying to you, or he’s “popped” people illegally for something that’s perfectly legal right now,...
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... and his chief and the DA have suspended him for being stoopid.
Or he’s a troll. Destination requirements only apply to:

1. Registered assault weapons
2. Transporting handguns outside of a vehicle.

ETA: Librarian got in while I was making drinks for the Bride and myself...priorities, (sigh)...
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Old 04-27-2019, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir13 View Post
I "Heard" somewhere... if the gun is loaded, the locked container must be attached to car.... (The cable thingy)... if unloaded, locked container need not be attached to car....
At this point, neither loaded nor unloaded guns need be in cases permanently attached to the vehicle, unless it is a toolbox or utility box in a pickup bed, or a vehicle which doesn’t have a trunk (think SUV or Ford Pinto Hatchback).

Please see CA PC 25140:
Quote:
25140.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.
[...]
(d) (1) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:
(A) “Locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.
(B) “Locked toolbox or utility box” means a fully enclosed container that is permanently affixed to the bed of a pickup truck or vehicle that does not contain a trunk, and is locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or other similar locking device.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir13 View Post
Image shown OK for airtravel... no bullet in chamber
Wouldn’t really be a problem of it was just the bullet.
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  #67  
Old 04-27-2019, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcasa View Post
I have a LEO relative that told me that their LE department considered a gun safe that was cabled to the vehicle (e.g., in the trunk, cabled through a bolted down cargo tie down) to NOT be ‘attached’ to the car ... because it wasn’t ‘permanently’ attached. He said they had popped people for that ...
So, how do the CoP and DA see that in light of Ca P.C. 25610?
Quote:
25610.
(a) Section 25400 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle’s trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with the provisions listed in Section 16580.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcasa View Post
...as well as having an unloaded gun in a locked container but not “transporting it to a specific location for a legal purpose (e.g., the shooting range)”. That is, he said simply having the unloaded gun in a locked container, for the general purpose of having it available in case of a need for self defense, was illegally transporting. His advice was to have a shooting bag too, and always say you’re on the way to the range. This all seems just so ridiculous.
It’s not ridiculous; it’s illegal. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Invite him on here; have him bring his agency name and badge #.
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  #68  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:35 AM
JamesCC JamesCC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bk23103 View Post
I wonder who would know if it were loaded or not.
You could run the risk of finding out...probably not a good call though
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