HONEST Opnion on Remington 700 AAC SD.

[DArBad]

Thanks for the clarification^^^^^^^^^

[jsigone]

Hum I thought it was wa threaded so I can put a brake one it without having a smith thread my barrel....

[TMB 1]

Originally Posted by jsigone

Hum I thought it was wa threaded so I can put a brake one it without having a smith thread my barrel....

or a flash hider

[DArBad]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I would generally avoid fluted barrels.
All they do is lighten your wallet.

Removing metal from the barrel makes it lighter.
Lighter barrels heat up faster and warp more easily and recoil more.
The amount of additional surface area increase from the fluting is not significant enough to actually promote significantly faster cooling.
They will heat and cool just like a round barrel of similar weight.

Heavier round barrels heat up slower and cool slower.
Lighter barrels heat up faster and cool faster.
The improvement in cooling is from the lighter weight, but comes with an equal loss of improvement of "staying cool longer" that heavier barrels have.

Thanks a lot Randall.

If you all haven't noticed by now..... I am taking everyone's suggestion to heart.

Hope we could all sit down in a big roundtable, sort of King Arthur's and His Knights style, we all talk about rifles and guns sharing knowledge and experience........just that....... you all would do most of the talking and I will be listening mostly, interjecting here and there with queries. That would be fun

[JMP]

Originally Posted by jsigone

Hum I thought it was wa threaded so I can put a brake one it without having a smith thread my barrel....

Of course you can as the threads are the same, but a 20" barrel is to leave room for a suppressor. I am simply saying the intention is a suppressor on 20" barrels. Personally, I don't like 20" braked guns with a good clamshell style brake as it leaves the path of the shockwave too close to the operator.

If you shoot 20" bolts, you are giving up too much important velocity and getting nothing in return.

[Josh3239]

Originally Posted by JMP

If you shoot 20" bolts, you are giving up too much important velocity and getting nothing in return.

This is why I got rid of my AAC SPS Tactical. You do get a heavy, stiff barrel but I found the velocity loss wasn't worth it.

[JMP]

Originally Posted by Josh3239

This is why I got rid of my AAC SPS Tactical. You do get a heavy, stiff barrel but I found the velocity loss wasn't worth it.

Yeah, I think a lot of people make this mistake and sometimes you just have to make the mistake first hand as many seem to just fall in love with an idea. But, it is no biggy, as you can get a much higher quality replacement barrel for a few hundred.

This is why I have mixed feelings about whether one should first start out with a factory barrel or just move straight to a quality barrel. It costs a bit of money, but the barrel is the single most important part of a bolt action that influences accuracy.

Of course, I'll also note that barrel length is of diminishing returns and it depends on what cartridge you are using. Things like 308 burn fast and don't seem to get monster returns with length. The minimum length you can get is 16", obviously. With each inch, the gain decreases. The first extra 7" from 16" to 23" get you a huge gain, but the 7" from 23" to 30" are much smaller. That's why for 308, it's a good cartridge for guys that want short barrels as it'll shoot well in 24" barrels, which isn't much longer, but it is a critical 100fps. On the other hand, if you shoot 338 Lapua, a 24" probably won't hack it and you'll favor at least 27-30". Once a barrel gets past 30", in traditional form, it is more difficult to transport. This is why the folding stocks or bullpup configurations are popular for many.

The only real time extra length hurts you is for your 22lr, which you will use subsonic ammo. In that case, 20" is a nice length as you would probably start to see negative acceleration in a 30".

The point is, as long as your projectile is accelerating forward, more barrel length is always better.

[DArBad]

Yup, one of the reasons I initially got interested in the AAC SD and the Savage FCP SD is the 20 inch barrel. Accordingly, the shorter barrel is less susceptible to " barrel harmonics " which is detrimental to accuracy.

I kinda lost tract of the other factors such as velocity loss. I also got interested in the " fluting " which according to marketing, makes the barrel stiffer, and faster cooling, etc.

Glad this thread went where it did, with more experienced members chiming in. To those with limited experience with this sort of things, all the information shared are nothing but a wealth of knowledge which are important when purchasing our first rifle.

More power to you guys who are generous with your help.

[JMP]

Originally Posted by DArBad

Yup, one of the reasons I initially got interested in the AAC SD and the Savage FCP SD is the 20 inch barrel. Accordingly, the shorter barrel is less susceptible to " barrel harmonics " which is detrimental to accuracy.

I kinda lost tract of the other factors such as velocity loss. I also got interested in the " fluting " which according to marketing, makes the barrel stiffer, and faster cooling, etc.

For new shooters, a 308 is a good choice since as long as they are sufficiently this, you are not very susceptible to barrel harmonics. There are a lot of pseudoscientific articles written on the internet by folks that have never actually studied the theory of motion.

When one is concerned about barrel harmonics, he's already mastered about 100 things more important to the average shooter. People like it because it sounds cool. This is the fact that when the bullet engages the rifling, it introduces a torque, which will create a shear wave down the barrel. 308s are such they do not need a lot of torque when engaging the rifling, especially with a nice soft 5r pattern. It's a slow moving projectile that stabilizes with very little rifling for its weight so for 308, in particular, I have never observed massive issues with barrel harmonics in a thick barrel of any length. In theory what you've heard has a point, but in practice, you won't observe it, not until you move on to higher performance barrels and cartridges.

Fluting, I believe may have been done at one point for a rifle's barrel to make the weight it needed for a certain class of competition. This is the same thing with fluted bolts. It has evolved to be purely cosmetic, and to me, they actually make the rifle a bit worse. Taking flutes out of the barrel weakens your existing contours and spiral fluting on bolts reduces the surface area of contact and can cause damage to your actual brass that it is in the magazine. For some reason it became a marketing ploy and a lot of mythology has been introduced.

For example, if you now shop, the standard twist for a 308 Win is 1:10". Now it is marketed as "shoot heavier higher performance projectiles", but the truth is that projectiles that you'd generally want to shoot from the 308 are well-stabalized from a 1:12". The standard has been 1:11 or 1:12". Now, if you look across the board, you no longer see these 1:12" or 1:11" on new models. The reason for that is that manufactures can save money by using the same barrels across the board for all 30 cal. With a 1:10", they can use the same barrel for 308, 30-06, 300WM, etc. That is the real reason that 1:10" has become in the standard. Or, of course, it is needed when your bullet is traveling too slowly to stabalize for optimal performance anyways. For me, I'd choose a 1:12" every time in 308 Win and I'd shoot reasonable bullets. For no scientific reason, the 1:11.25 used to be standardized since it was used in service rifles. That's another good twist for a 308. But, I'd simply not buy the 1:10" twist BS just because manufacturers want to skimp.

So, yes, you have discovered a lot of marketing BS that is not rooted in actual fact.

[Khromo]

Originally Posted by DArBad

...More power to you guys who are generous with your help.

Amen to that!

On the subject of barrel length, isn't it true that those of us who are limited to 300 yard ranges and are not concerned about terminal performance (on paper targets) are reasonably well served with the 20" barrels"?

I realize the long range shooters consider us candyass momma's boys and all, but it's a long hard road for many of us to get to a longer range, and that extra 100-150 fps is pretty much irrelevant inside 300, isn't it?

Or am I completely wrong about this?

[Josh3239]

Inside 300 yards, the only advantage a 24'' barrel will give over a 20'' is that your muzzle is 4 inches closer to the target

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Khromo

On the subject of barrel length, isn't it true that those of us who are limited to 300 yard ranges and are not concerned about terminal performance (on paper targets) are reasonably well served with the 20" barrels"?

Yes.

Those 20" barrels also fit into Mazda Miata's easier too.

[Khromo]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Yes.

Those 20" barrels also fit into Mazda Miata's easier too.

My mommy won't let me drive anything else. She says "Big cars are for big boys!!!...Now roll over so I can change your diaper!"

[DArBad]

Originally Posted by Khromo

My mommy won't let me drive anything else. She says "Big cars are for big boys!!!...Now roll over so I can change your diaper!"

[JMP]

Originally Posted by Khromo

Amen to that!

On the subject of barrel length, isn't it true that those of us who are limited to 300 yard ranges and are not concerned about terminal performance (on paper targets) are reasonably well served with the 20" barrels"?

I realize the long range shooters consider us candyass momma's boys and all, but it's a long hard road for many of us to get to a longer range, and that extra 100-150 fps is pretty much irrelevant inside 300, isn't it?

Or am I completely wrong about this?

You are completely correct; if you only shoot 100-300 yards, then you won't find a disadvantage going to a 20" on a 308 Win, but if you are ONLY shooting close, the 30cal of choice becomes the 30BR, which should give you better performance than the 308 Win of any length barrel at these ranges.



Thus, the 308 is popular for going a bit further than 300 yards. If folks only want to shoot to 300, then the 30BR makes more senses. If you live in CA, you should be less than 3 hours from a decent long range (>1km) shooting range.

[BillyGoatCrawler]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

Yes.

Those 20" barrels also fit into Mazda Miata's easier too.

Or on the BART so you can get to your local 200 yard range easier when you get tired of spending 6 hrs round trip in a rental car.. LoL.

[TMB 1]

Originally Posted by DArBad

Yup, one of the reasons I initially got interested in the AAC SD and the Savage FCP SD is the 20 inch barrel. Accordingly, the shorter barrel is less susceptible to " barrel harmonics " which is detrimental to accuracy.

Going by your OP with max range of 500yds 20" barrel should be fine. Also you said you'd be getting ammo at Wal Mart and lgs. If you're going get longer barrel to shoot at farther ranges 30-06 would probably be better, factory ammo for it is usually a 100 to 200fps faster than 308.

[DArBad]

Originally Posted by TMB 1

Going by your OP with max range of 500yds 20" barrel should be fine. Also you said you'd be getting ammo at Wal Mart and lgs. If you're going get longer barrel to shoot at farther ranges 30-06 would probably be better, factory ammo for it is usually a 100 to 200fps faster than 308.

Yes, but now that I know more than when this thread started, I would opt for a longer (24 , 26) length, a heavy non-fluted barrel.

Since the cost for a rifle with longer barrel would be almost the same as the shorter, might as well go for the longer.......... better to have the capability and not need it, than need it and not have it.

As to the difference in ballistic performance between a .308 win and a 30-06, I still have not done enough reading/research to prefer one over the other. Certainly, recoil and cost will be a factor.

[jsigone]

Originally Posted by JMP

Of course you can as the threads are the same, but a 20" barrel is to leave room for a suppressor. I am simply saying the intention is a suppressor on 20" barrels. Personally, I don't like 20" braked guns with a good clamshell style brake as it leaves the path of the shockwave too close to the operator.

If you shoot 20" bolts, you are giving up too much important velocity and getting nothing in return.

how much do you loose vs say that of a 700P w 24", same load smk175 over imr4064

[BillyGoatCrawler]

Originally Posted by jsigone

how much do you loose vs say that of a 700P w 24", same load smk175 over imr4064

Two very interesting articles:

This one concludes approx 20-25fps loss per inch
http://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308-...ty-28-to-16-5/


And
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-and-accuracy/

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by jsigone

how much do you loose vs say that of a 700P w 24", same load smk175 over imr4064

A 700P has a 26" barrel.

42.5gr IMR4064 under a 175smk gives 2649fps with a 26" barrel, 2609fps with a 24" barrel or 2512fps with a 20" barrel.

[jsigone]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

A 700P has a 26" barrel.

42.5gr IMR4064 under a 175smk gives 2649fps with a 26" barrel, 2609fps with a 24" barrel or 2512fps with a 20" barrel.

Thanks for the data spread. I'm on 43.5 grains and seems pretty accurate and consistent there. My hunt to get to 2600+ fps from my AAC with 175smk....

I have three boxes of 178amax, going to dive into this ladder for next Sunday @ Pala.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by jsigone

My hunt to get to 2600+ fps from my AAC with 175smk....

IMR4064 is not the powder to get you there.

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 175, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2275 G7Litz
Useable Case Capaci: 47.810 grain H2O = 3.104 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 57000 psi, or 393 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

33 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon CFE223                      94.7     46.5     3.01    2613    98.9    57000    9539   1.050  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game                   100.3     47.1     3.05    2609    98.4    57000    9521   1.050  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            99.7     43.9     2.85    2600    98.7    57000    9516   1.063  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2                       95.2     45.8     2.97    2595    99.4    57000    9366   1.063  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748                      92.6     43.9     2.84    2593    99.8    57000    9071   1.057  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                           100.5     41.4     2.68    2589   100.0    57000    8590   1.061  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15                 100.4     44.3     2.87    2588    98.2    57000    9421   1.064  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895                       96.7     42.6     2.76    2574    99.0    57000    9180   1.067  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar                   95.1     44.8     2.90    2574    98.5    57000    9222   1.060  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520                       95.4     44.3     2.87    2573   100.0    57000    8844   1.075  ! Near Maximum !

[JMP]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

IMR4064 is not the powder to get you there.

Cartridge          : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 175, Sierra HPBT MatchK 2275 G7Litz
Useable Case Capaci: 47.810 grain H2O = 3.104 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 57000 psi, or 393 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

33 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon CFE223                      94.7     46.5     3.01    2613    98.9    57000    9539   1.050  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game                   100.3     47.1     3.05    2609    98.4    57000    9521   1.050  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            99.7     43.9     2.85    2600    98.7    57000    9516   1.063  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2                       95.2     45.8     2.97    2595    99.4    57000    9366   1.063  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748                      92.6     43.9     2.84    2593    99.8    57000    9071   1.057  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                           100.5     41.4     2.68    2589   100.0    57000    8590   1.061  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15                 100.4     44.3     2.87    2588    98.2    57000    9421   1.064  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895                       96.7     42.6     2.76    2574    99.0    57000    9180   1.067  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar                   95.1     44.8     2.90    2574    98.5    57000    9222   1.060  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520                       95.4     44.3     2.87    2573   100.0    57000    8844   1.075  ! Near Maximum !

IMR 4064, is, however, one of the best powders for precision shooting in a 308. It's the barrel length that is the problem. There's no issue whatsoever using 4064 or Varget with a longer barrel.

[jsigone]

that was the research I found on the 4064 when looking for what powder was in stock when I bought my press last summer. But i guess not enough HW on barrel length and consistency at long distance. Or maybe I'm just asking too much from my skillset and equipment.

Also starting some HW on smk 155 palma loads and see what distance/consistency I can get from stock 20" barrel

Tuning and rebarrel may be an option for the AAC or just jump on the new Ruger bandwagon and go 6.5C for a grand....I think I can still use the same powder

[JMP]

Originally Posted by jsigone

Tuning and rebarrel may be an option for the AAC or just jump on the new Ruger bandwagon and go 6.5C for a grand....I think I can still use the same powder

For 6.5 Creedmoor and 139-142gr bullets, you will want to use H4350 or RL17, which are a bit slower. You can shoot reasonably accurately with 4064, but you will be leaving a lot on the table as far as velocity goes as 308 powders tend to be a bit fast and will cause too much of a pressure spike for that chambering. Thus, you'd probably put in about 36gr of 4064 vs. ~42gr of a more suitable powder, assuming you would be using the common bullets of 139-142gr. Those are just common characteristics of typical 6.5 barrels of 26-30" lengths.

[jsigone]

so even the ruger 24" barrel is a bit short?

I have a few pounds of R17 I haven't touched yet. I got them before I found jugs of 4064.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by jsigone

that was the research I found on the 4064 when looking for what powder was in stock when I bought my press last summer. But i guess not enough HW on barrel length and consistency at long distance. Or maybe I'm just asking too much from my skillset and equipment.

Also starting some HW on smk 155 palma loads and see what distance/consistency I can get from stock 20" barrel

The hottest loads (which give the highest velocities) almost never shoot as accurately as the milder loads.
IMR4064 is excellent for mild loads.
If you want more velocity, get a longer barrel.
That's the whole reason to HAVE a longer barrel...

Stock Remington barrels don't tend to favor 155's.

[JMP]

Originally Posted by jsigone

so even the ruger 24" barrel is a bit short?

I have a few pounds of R17 I haven't touched yet. I got them before I found jugs of 4064.

24" is not a terrible barrel length for any short action cartridge. Your incremental velocity gain decreases with barrel length (of course none of it is a linear system so there are rarely any absolute statements). 24" barrels aren't that common in 6.5 Creedmoor as most people that get a 6.5 Creedmoor chambering are doing so to get better distance so 26" is the most common because it is a decent length for enough velocity and it allows "tactical" shooting without getting too cumbersome, which tends to happen with 30"+ barrels. For large cartridges that use a very slow burning powder, then you usually want to go as long and thick as possible for performance. But, in a short action, I'd say 24" is fine if that is what you already have. In fact, compared to a 308, a 20" 6.5 Creedmoor is probably going to be better than just about any 308 for distance as 6.5mm bullets are very efficient (I am not recommending it, but stating it for comparison).

The 6.5 Creedmoor seems to be gaining in popularity at an exponential rate. It used to be limited to custom and semi-custom chamberings, but as more offerings are made for budget bolt action rifles, I think more and more 24" barrels will become common.

It's generally a balance between what you can pack around vs. performance. If you only shoot off a bench or fully supported on a bipod, you can't go wrong with larger barrels. If you do positional shooting that isn't fully supported, those nice 30" and longer barrels become a massive burden. Thus, it is preferential to a large degree. A 24" 6.5 short action is going to kick the heck out of 308s. 308s are really meant as a 0-600 yard rifle. The 308 Winchester is just a fantastic cartridge for all-purpose shooting within 0-600 yards. For achieving longer ranges, it isn't all that great. I am a 308 shooter as most of my shots are in the 0-600 yard range, but I am reaching into my quiver for a different cartridge when the distance gets longer. Compared to a 308, shooting 1km with a 6.5 seems as difficult as taking a sip of water.

[CK_32]

I'm not ranked #1 in the United states, don't have a scout sniper tag to my name nor can I brag im the best shot around.


But I would take a SSD and a standard SPS tactical up any day. I still love mine. I would have 50 more if I could afford or had the use for them.

For under 1,000 yards mainly used for under 800 it's a fully capable rifle. But again im just a weekend shooting who enjoys hitting steel 5 of 10 shots at 800 yards.

I say get one, don't look back. If you do, there will ALWAYS be "better" no matter what you choose. They are good rifles. Plenty for most/all weekend shooters.

[JMP]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

The hottest loads (which give the highest velocities) almost never shoot as accurately as the milder loads.
IMR4064 is excellent for mild loads.
If you want more velocity, get a longer barrel.
That's the whole reason to HAVE a longer barrel...

Stock Remington barrels don't tend to favor 155's.

This is spot on. Many people make the mistake of running a bunch of bullets and powders through online ballistic calculators and such. They simply look for the bullet/powder combo that will produce the greatest velocity with the highest BC.

While it is conceptually the right thing to do, in actual practice, you will find that this yields suboptimal results. If your load isn't accurate, everything else you do isn't worth beans.

Then, watch out for ballistic coefficients. To a large degree these are a marketing ploy as the G1 BC is easily manipulated upwards based on the shape of the bullet. Lost River bullets are an example of bullets that had amazingly high BCs. In practice, few shot their 30 cal because folks couldn't tune them for accuracy. When I use standard jacketed bullets, my first stop is always Lapua as they provide the best geometric consistency of any of the large factory bullets, and they do not provide misleading BCs. You will notice that the BCs of Lapua bullets tend to be lower than their counterparts. This results from the fact that they have very accurate radar to develop the BCs based on real life data rather than computed BCs.

I do not and will not sort bullets. Thus, if Lapua doesn't get it cut, it's time to go to a more specialized small shop to ensure the tolerances.

[DArBad]

Originally Posted by CK_32

I'm not ranked #1 in the United states, don't have a scout sniper tag to my name nor can I brag im the best shot around.


But I would take a SSD and a standard SPS tactical up any day. I still love mine. I would have 50 more if I could afford or had the use for them.

For under 1,000 yards mainly used for under 800 it's a fully capable rifle. But again im just a weekend shooting who enjoys hitting steel 5 of 10 shots at 800 yards.

I say get one, don't look back. If you do, there will ALWAYS be "better" no matter what you choose. They are good rifles. Plenty for most/all weekend shooters.

Hello, CK_32. You may not be the number 1 sniper in the whole country.......but here at Calguns, we do respect your opinion. Needless to say.... I am a fan.

[Guardian Mode]

AAC-SD is awesome!
And 308 is fun. It's not a win cheater 6 or 6.5,
but it's also not a barrel burner.
Get a brake on it and shoot the fat barrel all day.
slinging fat chunks of lead in a handy package never gets old.
I've got the savage version of the aac-sd, and I totally love it.
it ain't the most competitive gun, but it's well rounded and easy to get cheap bullets and brass for plinking.
Last time I was at the range, i pulled the scope off, I was having fun trying to hit steel at 200 yds using iron sights, standing up. 168 grains hitting steel at 200, the old fashioned way, is so rewarding!