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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner. |
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Scenario question- How would you handle this story?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...-way-possible/
A father and son got into a dispute over the son wanting cigarettes and the father refusing to buy them, so the son stole the truck and the father thought he would be slick and call the police and report the truck stolen to teach him a lesson. The son rammed police apparently more than once and they ended up shooting him in the end. I know, play stupid games... Now the family is all upset because the police did not need to shoot him. Things like this, in my opinion only serve to further push police away from warm and friendly people that they can be and many times are. The story seems to be biased in that the police were told to back off and the story of who the perp was and why was put out over the air so why didn't they? Then my training and past experience tells me that the police, despite looking like bad guys, probably did the correct thing. I was taught that my vehicle was my most deadliest weapon and if I had to use it to take someone out then so be it, from the officer's pov, here is a guy driving crazy, ramming them (I think this might classify as assault with a deadly weapon) and then STILL taking off and I think, ramming them again. If they let him go and he went on to kill people in his crazy driving then the police would have been held at fault for not doing enough. Instead, they were assaulted by the guy and I am sure that in their training they responded appropriately and neutralized the kid. Kid or not, he was behind the wheel of a 2500+lb weapon and was attempting to use it to against the police. Sadly, one thing I have observed is that the public is NOT privy to LEO training or knowing much about what is taught in those POST classes, so they think that cops can shoot people in the legs or shoot guns out of their hands instead of dealing lethal force. I know that has happened in the past, but it is crazy to expect that, when your life is on the line and you only know to stop someone. But I am not a LEO, so should this have been handled differently? BTW, I would say that this kid is no angel by his past, but that might not have been known at the time- not that it matters.
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7 Billion people on the planet. They aint ALL gonna astronauts. Some will get hit by trains... Need GOOD SS pins to clean your brass? Try the new and improved model... And remember- 99.9% of the lawyers ruin it for the other .1%... Last edited by stilly; 11-07-2013 at 8:17 AM.. |
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 11-07-2013 at 11:09 AM.. |
#3
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Here is a video of the chase and shooting...the written description didn't do it justice
http://whotv.com/2013/11/07/dash-cam...lved-shooting/
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale |
#4
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#5
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"Scenario question- How would you handle this story?"
I don't know. I wasn't there. Not a fan of video (including dash cams). They never show the whole story.
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#6
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Below is quote from a guy who was bashing the involved cops. Then apparently he watched the tapes.
"Upon seeing the release of this video I change my stance. Nice work officer Mcpherson. My mistake. I shouldn’t have jumped to conclusions before reviewing all the facts". Gnomes correct. The whole story is never told. The only ones that know are the ones involved. Something VERY important is to see is the guys TOTAL DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE. He blew that intersection and somehow, miraculously didn't kill another motorist or ped. Also look at the people running for their lives in the park. The guy had to go. If not, somebody innocent dies that day.
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Knives don't stab people, cars don't drive drunk, eating utensils don't make you fat and pencils don't mis-spell words. |
#7
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The truth of the matter is in this case, like many others, the person who was shot by the police is the one responsible for the event and the outcome. He could have just pulled over and stopped but he chose not to. It amazes me that on this forum, where most members preach personal responsibility and holding individuals responsible for their decisions and actions, that they throw that belief out the window the second that law enforcement is involved.
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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups |
#8
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Wow. I am filled with a lot of anger after seeing that. I know it is not the whole video but I sure hope they cited the father for not using a condom that night. When I saw them go through the intersection I was thinking, I bet those guys wish that those sirens were louder and their lights were brighter. I was surprised to see that a lot of folks pulled over or out of the way. All that I had heard was the audio at first so I thought, oh he was shot 6 times? Back East? Was the guy only shot 6 times because the officer only had a revolver? I was shocked to see the semi auto, Glock perhaps? I did not stop the video to look at all angles of the gun. Well, I was wrong about a few things too but after watching the video, man, I wanna slap the crap out of that father. AND inline with the other comments, yes, the complete disregard for all others on the road and for life and property was a dealbreaker for being anyone's kid. I prolly would have shot him after he rammed me the first time. Then again, I am not as trained as the officers that were involved. Crazy...
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7 Billion people on the planet. They aint ALL gonna astronauts. Some will get hit by trains... Need GOOD SS pins to clean your brass? Try the new and improved model... And remember- 99.9% of the lawyers ruin it for the other .1%... |
#11
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Okay,
1st, did anyone else see the 5-6 second green light at the first intersection. WTH, how many cars are really gonna make it through that light without running it? Seriously, that little douche ran, used his vehicle as a battering ram more than once, blew through that intersection at high speed, without regard to the lives of motorists/pedestrians, generally causing havoc on the streets. Not a tear shed here for him. I think the LEO's did exactly what they should have done. He was a danger, used his vehicle as a weapon, and they responded in kind. If his family tries to sue, it should be laughed out of court.
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Sorry, not sorry. 🎺 Dear autocorrect, I'm really getting tired of your shirt! |
#13
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Why does the blame from the public always fall on the officers? Be it failing to yield to the red light and siren or verbal commands about dropping a weapon and the aftermath for failing to follow either.
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#14
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The driver decided to use his vehicle as a weapon. The dash game on the #2 car in the pursuit shows the officer retreating away from the vehicle as it is being driven towards him. Good shoot...
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#15
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Anyways, I posted this because I had a problem with the story that I was picturing vs what was printed and the damage to the vehicles and the way in which it was presented. Glad my hunch was right.
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7 Billion people on the planet. They aint ALL gonna astronauts. Some will get hit by trains... Need GOOD SS pins to clean your brass? Try the new and improved model... And remember- 99.9% of the lawyers ruin it for the other .1%... Last edited by stilly; 11-08-2013 at 1:06 PM.. |
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Whoever it was that said 'I know who it is, we should probably back off' over the radio is the only one I question in this entire scenario.
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The satisfaction of a job well done is to be the one who has done it Quote:
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#17
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I bet he won't do that again....
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___________ “The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.” -Edmund Burke, Speech at Country Meeting of Buckinghamshire, 1784 |
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale |
#22
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If your not a LEO I could understand why you think I'm joking.
In my area at the moment that driver blew the red light the way he did the pursuit would have been over. A LEO's job is to arrest the bad guys but not at the expense of the public's safety. That driver showed no regard for his own safety or the safety of others. Hypothetically if the driver were to crash into a car after he ran the red light the way he did, Who would be responsible? Officer/Deparment or the Criminal? Not to mention that the only crime at this point was a stolen car / property crime. Is pursuing a criminal at high speeds on the public roads worth you getting your truck back that's more than likely going to be destroyed when the criminal crashes it? |
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#26
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After the suspect rammed the first unit with the trailer knocking him 90 degrees to the left, how could they terminate the pursuit...
The driver was a felony ADW suspect at that time, so do you just let him go? To me there is just as much "liability" letting him go as there is chasing him... As it turned out the officers made the right decision. They were able to stop the suspect, with the only injuries / fatalities being the suspect... That may sound harsh, however it was the suspects actions which caused the officers to react with deadly force... At any time he could have simply stopped the truck and surrendered... His choices the officers reacting to those choices.... All choices have consequences. The consequences of this suspects choices were his own death.....
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Poke'm with a stick! |
#27
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I think you should read the appropriate codes and educate yourself. After that go and talk to your city manager, Mayor, & Chief and ask what he thinks about your statement. Many people have sued and have won or settled regarding pursuit traffic collisions where the suspect was party #1 and responsible for the primary collision factor. If Leo's thought more like the lawyers that are going to cross examine them in court, situations like the above case study could be avoided and handled differently. Last edited by wattspd; 11-09-2013 at 4:53 PM.. |
#28
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The officer can terminate the pursuit at any time even if he were a victim of a crime. I honestly believe that while this pursuit took place the officers were more concerned with catching the suspect than public safety or officer safety. All I saw in the video at the time of the OIS was poor tactics. They are very lucky that the suspect didn't run them over when they both exited from their patrol cars while the truck was still moving. |
#29
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The impact knocked the unit 90 degrees to the left... A very major impact....
The "If's" don't matter... The intent of the suspect is clear... Do anything to stop the officers including using his vehicle as a weapon.... Lawyers always argue BS... Thats their job, to mitigate their client choices, and to try and show just what a misunderstood angel their client is... Here the suspects intent is very clear... Do anything to stop the pursuing officers, including intentionally ramming their cars, and risking the lives of every other motorist on the road, as well as everyone on foot on the campus where the pursuit was stopped.... Once again someone complaining about the "poor tactics" of the officers involved... While ignoring the FACT that the officers were at all times reacting in real time to the actions of the suspect... In the end the out come was as good as it could be... Based on the suspects actions...Suspect stopped from hurting officers, or any other persons.... The reason the suspect didn't "run over them", was because the officer who fired on the suspect acted in a quick and decisive and reasonable manner and ended the threat.
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Poke'm with a stick! Last edited by SVT-40; 11-09-2013 at 6:57 PM.. |
#31
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Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that the situation worked out in the favor for the officers. I just don't think they used good tactics. There is one rule in pursuits. If the suspect drives with no regard for his own life, you don't chase him. Use other methods of capture. When he ran that red light he clearly did not a give a for his own life. Playing bumper cars in the grass with a 3/4 pickup is a not so bright idea. The truck has a clear advantage in that situation. The reason why the secondary officer exited his vehicle is because his plan failed in ramming the truck head on, then ran his car into the tree getting his car stuck with his back to the suspect. Who approaches a suspect that they just used deadly force on with their gun at low ready while talking on the radio? Who walks between the suspect's vehicle that was just a "ADW" tool and his patrol car without knowing the state of the suspect? Who approaches the suspect vehicle with what looks like only two officers? They didn't seem all that scared to me. They just looked like they didn't know to effectively handle the situation. They have to live with killing the suspect and think everyday if they could or should have done it differently. Last edited by wattspd; 11-09-2013 at 7:06 PM.. |
#32
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Bottom line is they did the best with what they had, and ended a very dangerous situation with no injuries to anyone other than the suspect, even while the suspect was trying his hardest to injure or kill the officers.
There is always room to "critique" any incident... Thats how improvements to tactics and policies occur. However these situations happen very quickly, and are so very fluid. So give the officers a break. They were there. You were not..... So what if Daddy running to the ambulance chasers... That should never be a concern while a situation is unfolding.....
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Poke'm with a stick! |
#33
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The satisfaction of a job well done is to be the one who has done it Quote:
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#35
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(b) A public agency employing peace officers that adopts a written policy on vehicular pursuits complying with subdivision (c) is immune from liability for civil damages for personal injury to or death of any person or damage to property resulting from the collision of a vehicle being operated by an actual or suspected violator of the law who is being, has been, or believes he or she is being or has been, pursued in a motor vehicle by a peace officer employed by the public entity. (c) If the public entity has adopted a policy for the safe conduct of vehicular pursuits by peace officers, it shall meet all of the following minimum standards: (1) It provides that, if available, there be supervisory control of the pursuit. (2) It provides procedures for designating the primary pursuit vehicle and for determining the total number of vehicles to be permitted to participate at one time in the pursuit. (3) It provides procedures for coordinating operations with other jurisdictions. (4) It provides guidelines for determining when the interests of public safety and effective law enforcement justify a vehicular pursuit and when a vehicular pursuit should not be initiated or should be terminated. (d) A determination of whether a policy adopted pursuant to subdivision (c) complies with that subdivision is a question of law for the court. (e) This section shall become inoperative on July 1, 2007, and, as of January 1, 2008, is repealed, unless a later enacted statute that is enacted before January 1, 2008, deletes or extends the dates on which it becomes inoperative and is repealed. AND DONE |
#36
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You sound a lot like a supervisor I used to have who went overboard after he attended Vicarious Liability training.
It might have gone better for him if he'd had any street creditability, but it only went downhill when he didn't even try to get buy-in from the line troops. For some reason, whenever he tried to get on the radio during a pursuit, his transmissions were always garbled...even in the best of times he was hard to understand as he never grasped the concept of the repeater powering up. Quote:
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Keeping your gun up promotes tunnel vision, lowering it slightly allows better situational awareness while not excessively affecting the ability to respond...that is why many Response Team members don't search with their sights. Quote:
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It is the same mindset that brought about the adoption of the Active Shooter policies
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 11-10-2013 at 12:54 PM.. |
#37
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If the suspect drives with no regard for his own safety and crashes his own car and dies, that's on him/her. Sounds to me like you are advocating never chasing any reckless drivers, regardless of wants? All you are doing is creating a system whereby: a) bad guys get away and b) bad guys learn that driving reckless = a good chance of getting away and thus more do it. I agree that not everything that runs is worth chasing (believe me, I have called off several of my own pursuits and I freakin hate it) but I also believe that there are some crimes that should be pursued till the wheels come off (ADW on officers being one of them). |
#39
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"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."~M.Twain~ |
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