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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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#1
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Why is it not legal to sell "handgun" receivers?
The following is perfectly legal and performed daily all over California:
Walk into local gun store and start DROS/4473 on an AR pattern 'built' lower receiver. By 'built' I imply that it has a stock, grip, and a complete lower parts kit with BB all installed. This is DROSed as a longun, 4473'd as an other. The same person has previously purchased a complete AR pattern upper receiver with a greater then 16" barrel. After then 10 day wait the buyer picks up his complete lower assembly, goes home, attaches upper to lower and now has a legally configured rifle. Similarly, its perfectly legal to purchase a completely stripped lower receiver; no LPK, stock, grips, etc. Its still papered as a long-gun/other. When the buyer picks up the lower, the buyer builds the lower to the same configuration as the 'built lower' from above and attaches the upper to lower. This is also a legally configured rifle. Why can I not walk into a gun store and DROS a 'built' or stripped Glock or 1911 pattern frame and create a MechTech carbine (or similar) ? This is also a legally configured rifle but I'm not allowed to buy the 'lower'. Why? --------------------- There has also been talk lately that from a federal perspective, its also perfectly legal to build an AR pattern pistol using either scenario above so long as the stock is remove prior to combining the upper and lower assemblies. It has been suggested that it is possible to legally build an AR Pattern pistol in accordance with CA law because pistols only need to be registered when they are transferred. This is of course unsettled and there would be 58 different opinions from potential prosecuting district attorneys. If that's the case; why would it not be legal to 1) take a Gen4 Glock 2) separate the frame from the barrel/slide 3) DROS/4473 the frame as a long-gun/other 4) go home with barrel/slide 5) pickup frame in 10 days 6) go home and combine it all ----------- What prevents a CA FFL from selling to me what is traditionally known as a handgun frame? Yet at the same time is perfectly comfortable selling to me what is traditionally known as a long-gun frame? Last edited by mej16489; 04-12-2013 at 2:54 PM.. Reason: added quotation marks to title. |
#2
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ar lowers are sold as rifles
handgun frames cant be sold unless your a exempt person because you cant do a safe handling demo with just a frame and the rooster also applies so your options for a frame are A ) be a exempt person b) build one from a 80%
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774_1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764 |
#3
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Specifically, what makes something a handgun frame and not a lower receiver for a carbine? Quote:
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#4
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You're free to buy a complete handgun and then dispose of the parts you don't want.
But handguns are regulated by the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale; unless you are exempt from the Roster, or the sale is exempt from the Roster (e.g. PPT), an FFL cannot sell 'just a frame', because there are no 'just frames' on the Roster. (There can't be - 'just a frame' cannot pass the certification tests.) CA law doesn't have the concept of 'a lower for a pistol-based carbine'.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#5
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At what point in time does a frame/receiver become considered a 'handgun'? Last edited by mej16489; 04-12-2013 at 2:53 PM.. |
#6
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Do remember the Roster was created (2001) before the OLL thing took off (2007), and that the Legislature has no interest in making things easier for gun owners. The Right Answer, of course, is to get rid of the Roster.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#7
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I'm not as well versed on FFL penal code as I am in other areas...where might I find this covered? |
#8
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__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#9
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The roster is specifically about, "pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person" So, why is an AR pattern frame (which is certainly neither a pistol or revolver) legal to DROS, but the frame of a Glock35 (which is also neither a pistol or revolver) isn't? Clearly a frame alone cannot pass the tests - but what criteria determines that it is subject to the test to begin with? p.s. let's please not get mired in the specifics that its possible to buy a Gen4 Glock 35 via SSE. Substitute 'frame of a Glock35' with name of any 'handguns-style' frame i.e. MilSpec 1911A1. |
#10
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The state gets money from having the makers pay to have there firearms on the roster. Many pistols can not be purchased because they are inox and not black, the black model is on the roster. The ca roster is BS.
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#11
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State Fee?
Anyone know the Calif fee to "roster" test a pistol?
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#12
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Anyone...Bueller?
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#13
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But if you decide to do that and then build it up as a pistol, you might run afoul of CA's SBR laws. Quote:
you can DROS a AR frame as a long gun, but not as a pistol. you can DROS a Glock frame as a long gun, but not as a pistol.
__________________
Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#14
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Is part of the 'problem' the fact that 'pistol' frames are incredibly rare? I suppose 1911 patterns are readily available, but Glock frames are essentially non-existent. Do the legal factors change if a complete pistol arrives at a dealer from a distributor and the FFL separates the handgun into Frame + Parts? Complete handgun arrives at FFL. FFL logs into bound book as handgun. FFL separates handgun into 'frame + parts' FFL sells frame only to buyer as "Long-gun/other" for DROS/4473 ('parts' never go to the buyer) Buyer builds carbine using frame. (If after 1/1/14 buyer submits volreg for rifle?) |
#15
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I just went through one of the loopholes to get a 1911 frame here in Cali. I was in contact with a detective at my local sheriffs office who informed me of the "cleanest" way to do it. From my understanding there are 3 ways to get off roster handguns in Cali one is the intra-familial transfer or buying from a current owner and the single shot exemption.
There is a lot if miss information available and some FFL's don't fully understand how the process' work and even more so neither do some of the BATFE people. I do not claim to be an expert or even an FFL. But what makes sense to me is to do it through one of the verified safe methods which would be one if the three listed above. I think if you try and get tricky you be pushing your luck. |
#16
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its not a loophole its called the LAW .....
__________________
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774_1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764 |
#18
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In order to have an AR pistol you need to have DROS'd a complete AR Pistol that has been converted to single shot. You can convert that to a rifle as long as you follow the AW rules, but you can not go from a DROS'd AR rifle to a pistol as mentioned above by ke6guj. I am an FFL and I would be hesitant to DROS a Glock Frame as a receiver for a carbine. I would just do an SSE. |
#19
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I understand your hesitation - after all, its your license on the line. sidenote: Glad to hear you are willing to perform SSE, just curious, where are you located? I'm in northern LA county and I can't even seem to find a shop willing to SSE within 75 miles. In particular a Gen4 Glock 19 and a Gen4 Glock 35. |
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