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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 06-17-2018, 7:51 AM
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Default First sanctioned USPSA match, and my FIRST DQ

Note: Moving this out from a separate thread that I wouldn't want to hijack...

Hahahaha!!! My FIRST sanctioned match, and my first DQ.

Yes, it was a good call, and definitely a learning experience for me. I need to learn/work on movement in corners/retreats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCLklH_6Npc


But regardless, it was fun and challenging match while it lasted (at least for me). Great and fun squad! Looking forwarding to coming back again... More experienced, more learned, and hopefully, better...

As they say in the martial arts, "Fall 7 times; get up 8...!"

Cheers!


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Old 06-17-2018, 7:56 AM
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UPDATE:

Although I wasn't able to finish the match, I did get in to try some fun stages:

The "memory" stage that gave a few in the squad a headache:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yYRTiBTe94
This was a HF = 3.04 / "C"-class performance in Production)...



Some speed in the barrels (HF = 7.30 / "B"-class performance in Production):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY595KfQrb8



And, at least for my limited participation, the stage that I felt I was in the zone (HF = 4.69 / "B"-class performance in Production):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljQ91bv9IT4



Cheers!


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Old 06-17-2018, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
As mentioned above by tanks, always keep the gun IN FRONT of you with muzzle pointed downrange / at the threat. Lead with the weapon! Why would you ever have the gun behind your body pointed behind you??? You are NOT in the French Army...
First of all, thanks for the response.

I'm trying to do a retrospective on this - why in the hell did I do what I just did!

The only reason I could think of is seeing how FAST competitors in YouTube do it...

I seriously don't know...


Quote:
Without a doubt this was a good teachable moment and I doubt you will repeat this error...
Definitely will NOT...!!!


Quote:
but seriously, take some classes;

- Take a couple good basic tactical classes from a well known reputable school that focus on safety, weapons manipulation and CQB movement
- Shoot some local, friendly neighborhood matches for a period of time to take measure of you r skill level and build it.
- Then take some classes that focus on competition skills from successful competitors.

I do take classes. LOTS of them. I keep a record of ALL my classes and matches (with results) in a Google sheet. Here is a redacted version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


Quote:
- Take a couple good basic tactical classes from a well known reputable school that focus on safety, weapons manipulation and CQB movement
Any recommended class that teaches CQB movement?

In the past year, have progressed through "introductory" to "advanced" levels of an Angeles-based school. However, not much CQB was taught.


Quote:
- Shoot some local, friendly neighborhood matches for a period of time to take measure of you r skill level and build it.
I have shot several local matches already. Before Brass Fest I have shot about 5 USPSA local/club matches. I'm still a "U" in USPSA, but my recent classifier scores are in my resume.


Quote:
- Then take some classes that focus on competition skills from successful competitors.
I did take a class from Vogel last year. Was supposed to be taking JJ Racaza's class prior to Brass Fest, but the class got canceled.

Right now, I'm using Mike Seeklander's dry practice program at home, as well.


Quote:
- Have fun!
True that...!!! But seriously - sometimes it becomes difficult when in spite of the practice I have put in, I'm actually getting more *ugh* *SMH* moments in my recent matches.

Although I find an improvement in speed and accuracy - there is always this stumbling moment that ruins everything!


As it would be said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmatt View Post
make changes, not excuses.
Definitely!


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Old 06-17-2018, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
First of all, thanks for the response.

I'm trying to do a retrospective on this - why in the hell did I do what I just did!

The only reason I could think of is seeing how FAST competitors in YouTube do it...

I seriously don't know...
USPSA is mostly about speed. Watching other competitors with better skill sets / experience going fast made you go faster than your skill set. THAT is the challenge... that fine balancing act of pushing your performance envelope but not to the point of unsafe action. New shooters need to go slower and focus safety while building the muscle memory that comes with time / experience. Clearly "just going fast" is not what it is all about..hence your DQ.




Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
I do take classes. LOTS of them. I keep a record of ALL my classes and matches (with results) in a Google sheet. Here is a redacted version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Any recommended class that teaches CQB movement?

In the past year, have progressed through "introductory" to "advanced" levels of an Angeles-based school. However, not much CQB was taught.
- You have certainly got a lot of training under your belt.. the only question that remains there is what schools / instructors? There are some very reputable schools/ instructors and some not so much... Good training builds fundamentals by the numbers in a logical rational progression and then reinforces the building of muscle memory for those fundamentals. Just liek classes in college.. some professors have the gift to teach, others just like the subject matter and the idea of teaching but dont really know how to teach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
I have shot several local matches already. Before Brass Fest I have shot about 5 USPSA local/club matches. I'm still a "U" in USPSA, but my recent classifier scores are in my resume.{/QUOTE]

True that...!!! But seriously - sometimes it becomes difficult when in spite of the practice I have put in, I'm actually getting more *ugh* *SMH* moments in my recent matches.

Although I find an improvement in speed and accuracy - there is always this stumbling moment that ruins everything!

Five matches is not a lot of experience to bring to a sanctioned match. Maybe your trying too hard and focusing mainly on speed? Try focusing on perfect accuracy for a while.. it will slow you down and give you time to process everything you are learning/developing. Repetitively shooting for accuracy will allow you to develop correct muscle memory while while at the same time improving your accuracy and ability to think and move thru the stage. This is the same process one goes thru to master trigger control... pressing slowly straight to the rear so you do not disturb sight alignment or sight picture and the moment ends in a surprise break. Do it five or ten thousand times and you will find yourself getting that surprise brake REAL FAST but it will still be a surprise break. Become more methodical in how you move thru your stages and over time you will find yourself much father than you thought.
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Old 06-17-2018, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Hahahaha!!! My FIRST sanctioned match, and my first DQ.

Yes, it was a good call, and definitely a learning experience for me. I need to learn/work on movement in corners/retreats.

(snip)
_
Dang. Rounding corners can definitely present a 180/sweeping issue. Tanks gave you a great general guideline.

Another consideration is the space that is available when rounding the corner. USPSA doesn't penalize for movement outside of the fault lines. So you could, if it helps you feel more confident, utilize more space (i.e, take a wider line around the corner). This will cost a bit of time.

I also find myself bringing the gun up and towards my chest while always keeping the muzzle pointed downrange when running around corners like that (running left). Your right arm ends up looking like a T-Rex, but the core safety idea (keeping the muzzle pointed downrange) is maintained.

As for running uprange: Here are some considerations

1) Which hand is dominant (we've already established that you're right handed)
2) Which direction will I be moving in addition to uprange (i.e, uprange and left vs uprange and right)
3) Which direction will I be engaging targets when I reach my final position uprange.

2 and 3 often have the same answer. For example, I'm moving uprange to my left (when I was facing downrange) to engage targets on the left berm. Lowering the gun vs. lifting above your shoulder (keeping your muzzle downrange AND parallel with the Earth) is answered through 2 and 3. That's because of the "extra turning motion" that has to happen to ensure that you don't sweep the entire squad.

In the case of a "strictly uprange" hallway, 3 becomes a deciding factor for how I position the gun.

Right handed example
If I'm moving uprange and to the right (targets on the right)
I position myself to the right of the gun by bringing it slightly above my left shoulder while keeping the muzzle parallel to the Earth (180's are vertical, too!). This keeps the gun pointed downrange and makes it clear that you aren't sweeping yourself.

If I'm moving uprange and to the left (targets on the left)
I position myself to to the left of the gun by maintaining the elevation of the gun while turning my body so I can move to the left.

Whether or not you should break your grip is related to how much movement is necessary. Short hop between positions? No need to break your grip.

Where things get interesting is an Uprange+Left+Reload. That's kind of what I see as an "extra" in your video. Some advocate completing the reload before moving. I saw a couple of people complete the reload at the end of their Uprange+Left movement. I've been trying that when there is a extra leftward movement required--an extra length of wall, for example. The key here is to make sure that you're muzzle doesn't break the 180 when you're reloading.

Focusing on movement has really helped me lately. Moving at an appropriate speed, staying balanced, and planting into the exact position works wonders. Making the decision to immediately move (target to target and position to position) is a big one, too
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Old 06-17-2018, 8:57 AM
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You need to complete more matches, as your experience increases so does muzzle awareness. I got my first and only DQ at Palm Springs Gun Club in 1996, and I was furious untill I realized, and came to terms, that I broke the 180 rule (no video evidence back then). Remember that all guns are loaded all the time!!! Even when not loaded, they are still loaded. Up here in San Luis Obispo we have several different matches available every month to practice on. Thank care!
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Rez805 View Post
Dang. Rounding corners can definitely present a 180/sweeping issue. Tanks gave you a great general guideline.

Another consideration is the space that is available when rounding the corner. USPSA doesn't penalize for movement outside of the fault lines. So you could, if it helps you feel more confident, utilize more space (i.e, take a wider line around the corner). This will cost a bit of time.
Rez is spot on with this advice; a primary tactical fundamental...YOU NEVER CROWD COVER...Distance is your friend
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Any recommended class that teaches CQB movement?

In the past year, have progressed through "introductory" to "advanced" levels of an Angeles-based school. However, not much CQB was taught_
What LA based school?
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:24 AM
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I fell during a match. Last stage. All pistol. Start in a rebar square, engage a set. Move to another rebar square and engage another set. My toe got caught on the rebar. Kept the muzzle downrange and finger off the trigger. But it was still a DQ. Embarrassing as he11. Being the most athletic person on the range didnít help. It can happen.
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:40 AM
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Originally Posted by FIELDWORKS360 View Post
I fell during a match. Last stage. All pistol. Start in a rebar square, engage a set. Move to another rebar square and engage another set. My toe got caught on the rebar. Kept the muzzle downrange and finger off the trigger. But it was still a DQ. Embarrassing as he11. Being the most athletic person on the range didnít help. It can happen.
Did you drop the gun on the ground? If you fell but held the gun out ahead of you safely, finger off trigger, downrange, that shouldn't have been a DQ I dont think
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:45 AM
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Did you drop the gun on the ground? If you fell but held the gun out ahead of you safely, finger off trigger, downrange, that shouldn't have been a DQ I dont think
Dirt on the bottom of the mag. I was running to the right and Iím right handed. So the pistol had to cross my body. I tried to absorb the fall with my off hand and shooting elbow, but the fall made my hand skip off the dirt. Ouch
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Old 06-17-2018, 9:49 AM
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First of all, thank you to everyone's feedback, tips, etc. It is much appreciated. It feels like when I first started in firearms, about 2-years back, when folks in Calguns were very helpful as I started struggling through frustrations (ie., I couldn't even get groups down to 5-inches in just 7-yards).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rez805 View Post
Right handed example
If I'm moving uprange and to the right (targets on the right)
I position myself to the right of the gun by bringing it slightly above my left shoulder while keeping the muzzle parallel to the Earth (180's are vertical, too!). This keeps the gun pointed downrange and makes it clear that you aren't sweeping yourself.

If I'm moving uprange and to the left (targets on the left)
I position myself to to the left of the gun by maintaining the elevation of the gun while turning my body so I can move to the left.
Thanks for the response. This fairly articulated how should I try moving (and practicing) going forward.

In reflection, I think this stage would have gone well if I had started with the LEFT-side. Again, a lesson learned here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Clearly "just going fast" is not what it is all about..hence your DQ.
*nods in agreement*



Quote:
Maybe your trying too hard and focusing mainly on speed? Try focusing on perfect accuracy for a while.. it will slow you down and give you time to process everything you are learning/developing.
*nods head in enlightenment*

I think this sums it up. I shoot a match at least once every two months, or once a month at most. Although I dry practice 15/day every weekday, and 1-hr/day Sat/Sun. Menu for now is trigger control, pairs, target transition, reloads and draws.

Looking at the mirror - I think I tend to compare myself to my peers. Though I am still a "U," my USPSA classifier is trending to low- to mid-C, so, I should have HF on par with them. In my initial matches, I have higher accuracy than them; but with LOW hit factors. Hence, the burning desire to push the speed limit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by colt11 View Post
You need to complete more matches, as your experience increases so does muzzle awareness.
Quote:
Five matches is not a lot of experience to bring to a sanctioned match.
How so? Based on local match scores, I tend towards 70% overall, and towards the upper 50% in my division (Production). Am I not understanding something here?

How then would I know that I'm ready for a sanctioned match? Albeit, IDPA, I participated in the Bakersfield one and placed 61th overall, 6/17 in my class/division. And I have the same amount of matches prior...



Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Rez is spot on with this advice; a primary tactical fundamental...YOU NEVER CROWD COVER...Distance is your friend
This will be going to my training log. Thanks!



Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
What LA based school?
https://internationaltactical.com/index.html

As I've posted, please recommend a school that teaches CQB? Thanks in advanced!!!


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Old 06-17-2018, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by FIELDWORKS360 View Post
Dirt on the bottom of the mag. I was running to the right and Iím right handed. So the pistol had to cross my body. I tried to absorb the fall with my off hand and shooting elbow, but the fall made my hand skip off the dirt. Ouch
Yup.. the dirt on the mag indicated contact with the ground.. technically a dropped gun. At least your finger was off trigger and no ND.

Those are dangerous situations with the risk that "sympathetic pressure" of your strong hand while weak hand is catching you on ground can result in a ND.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post

https://internationaltactical.com/index.html

As I've posted, please recommend a school that teaches CQB? Thanks in advanced!!!
Scott Reitz has very high reputation in the training community but I have never taken one of his classes so I do not know what he covers.

I have only trained with these two schools and while I have shot USPSA off and on over the years, my preference is 3 gun and IDPA where I have been relatively successful

Gunsite in Prescott Az a long time ago when Col. Cooper was still there and I was running a 1911.
https://www.gunsite.com/

Locally, I have trained extensively Direct Action Group / TFTT :
http://www.dag-usa.com/
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Old 06-17-2018, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Yup.. the dirt on the mag indicated contact with the ground.. technically a dropped gun. At least your finger was off trigger and no ND.

Those are dangerous situations with the risk that "sympathetic pressure" of your strong hand while weak hand is catching you on ground can result in a ND.
In USPSA if you have control of the gun it should not have been a DQ even if it touches the ground. Heck, if that was the case on some prone stages people would be DQed for placing the mag on the ground while shooting.
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Old 06-17-2018, 5:35 PM
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[COLOR="blue"]... In my initial matches, I have higher accuracy than them; but with LOW hit factors. Hence, the burning desire to push the speed limit....
You will gain much more speed by having faster transitions, shooting sooner and always moving.

A personal example. During a lesson Ron Avery (google him if you don't know who he is), had me run a stage my way. Then, he had me WALK it but never stopping as I was shooting. I beat my previous time by 3 seconds and had better hits.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:05 PM
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Pare...

-first off, I commend you on your dry fire regimen. I see improvement for your earlier videos up to now; transitions, splits, cadence, all better.

-Rez explained it crystal clear with perfect examples. It took me long time to run up range with the gun either over the shoulder or behind back (depending where the next targets are). Before that, I was running funny backwards, oompa loompa style. Now, stages with up range start, I put extra consideration to run through the motions going up range. Rez gave a good guideline on whether you need to have your gun over your shoulder or behind back. TiP: when running up range w/ gun behind back, have the gun close to being upside down; it is easier on the wrist.

-In your case, the gun behind back was the appropriate method running up range. But you did not tuck in your arms "like a T-rex" when you went around the corner. Form then on, your gun was lagging and behind all the way to the other side of the stage up to the moment you DQ. (that's where I call it anyways)

-Sell you self to the RO that you are safe. What to I mean? Doing little things, like raising your gun above shoulder when opening a door or tucking the gun in like a T-rex when moving, that will make the RO absolutely sure you are safe. My friend got DQ'ed because the RO thought his finger was in the trigger guard when reloading. When we checked his video, it clearly shows his finger was straight and not in the trigger guard BUT around the area outside the trigger guard and not on the frame. The RO was in the other side could easily think the finger was inside~ DQ. Video is still an inadmissible evidence in USPSA, Sell yourself to the RO that you are safe.

-After the first sting, I would have grabbed a mag, run around the corner, and the finish the reload as I present to the next string on the other side of the stage.
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Old 06-18-2018, 1:25 PM
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Yeah, dirt, gravel embedded, etc on mag or side of the gun as long as it stays completely in control and in your grip does not constitute a DQ offense.. I did what can be termed as a "superman" fall on loose gravel and though my pistol base pad was severely scratched/impacted, I kept control, got back up and finished the stage.. It's only when you actually lose control/go over the 180/etc.. that should be a DQ otherwise it's a dnf if you don't finish or a severely impacted time if you do..
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Old 06-18-2018, 4:20 PM
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Hahahaha!!! My FIRST sanctioned match, and my first DQ.

........

As they say in the martial arts, "Fall 7 times; get up 8...!"
OK, I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because I'm an RO/SO in multiple shooting sports, have Match Directed state championships, and teach a New Competitor course for people looking to start in practical shooting competitions.

I'm not sure why you are laughing about violating a safety rule that exists to protect other people on the range. And the "fall 7, get up 8" quote is a bit horrifying.

The primary rule of any shooting sport is safety. Getting a DQ for violating that principle is cause for embarrassment rather than a chuckle for most people who understand the dire need for safety in shooting sports. I get that you are trying to be self-effacing in your post, but it honestly seems you're going to chuckle every time you tell the story.

There's an adage in gun games that there are two types of people. Those who have DQed and those who haven't DQed yet. God knows, I had my moment. It came after competing for eight years and getting "got to win" more in my head than "got to be safe." I tell the story to people who are interested in my learning moment, but I never tell it with pride. It's no badge of honor.

The only thing more I'll say is that you should treat this like something that you will do whatever is necessary to make sure it never happens again. This is not a stepping stone on the way to being a great shooter.
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Old 06-18-2018, 4:26 PM
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You're first match is all about safety, you (specifically) should to be walking (literally and figuratively).
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Old 06-18-2018, 5:16 PM
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OK, I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because I'm an RO/SO in multiple shooting sports, have Match Directed state championships, and teach a New Competitor course for people looking to start in practical shooting competitions.

I'm not sure why you are laughing about violating a safety rule that exists to protect other people on the range. And the "fall 7, get up 8" quote is a bit horrifying.

The primary rule of any shooting sport is safety. Getting a DQ for violating that principle is cause for embarrassment rather than a chuckle for most people who understand the dire need for safety in shooting sports. I get that you are trying to be self-effacing in your post, but it honestly seems you're going to chuckle every time you tell the story.

There's an adage in gun games that there are two types of people. Those who have DQed and those who haven't DQed yet. God knows, I had my moment. It came after competing for eight years and getting "got to win" more in my head than "got to be safe." I tell the story to people who are interested in my learning moment, but I never tell it with pride. It's no badge of honor.

The only thing more I'll say is that you should treat this like something that you will do whatever is necessary to make sure it never happens again. This is not a stepping stone on the way to being a great shooter.



While I agree with what you said, the Hahahaha, is a reference to something roadaling said before the match.
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Old 06-18-2018, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
OK, I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because I'm an RO/SO in multiple shooting sports, have Match Directed state championships, and teach a New Competitor course for people looking to start in practical shooting competitions.

I'm not sure why you are laughing about violating a safety rule that exists to protect other people on the range. And the "fall 7, get up 8" quote is a bit horrifying.

The primary rule of any shooting sport is safety. Getting a DQ for violating that principle is cause for embarrassment rather than a chuckle for most people who understand the dire need for safety in shooting sports. I get that you are trying to be self-effacing in your post, but it honestly seems you're going to chuckle every time you tell the story.

There's an adage in gun games that there are two types of people. Those who have DQed and those who haven't DQed yet. God knows, I had my moment. It came after competing for eight years and getting "got to win" more in my head than "got to be safe." I tell the story to people who are interested in my learning moment, but I never tell it with pride. It's no badge of honor.

The only thing more I'll say is that you should treat this like something that you will do whatever is necessary to make sure it never happens again. This is not a stepping stone on the way to being a great shooter.
Though I would agree with what you said in regards to safety, your presumption about my post/intent is quite, shall I say, definitely a dick move.

However, this is NOT the place nor the venue for such gripe. I have PMed you for which you could choose to respond or not.

Have a good day!


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Old 06-18-2018, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
A personal example. During a lesson Ron Avery (google him if you don't know who he is), had me run a stage my way. Then, he had me WALK it but never stopping as I was shooting. I beat my previous time by 3 seconds and had better hits.
I know him. You've recommended him to me many times now.

I'm still working on making it happen. Because of my schedule, am actually thinking of making it a private lesson. And yes, SAFETY will definitely be an agenda item that I would work with him, ie., potential DQ points - how to identify them in a match, etc. while working on stage planning.

For now, have received a complimentary 2-day class with JJ Racaza in Nevada in the next few months. After that, I'll see if I can plan out a trip to Utah...



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Pare...

-first off, I commend you on your dry fire regimen. I see improvement for your earlier videos up to now; transitions, splits, cadence, all better.
First off - salamat P're sa response!!!

Quote:
-In your case, the gun behind back was the appropriate method running up range. But you did not tuck in your arms "like a T-rex" when you went around the corner. Form then on, your gun was lagging and behind all the way to the other side of the stage up to the moment you DQ. (that's where I call it anyways)
*nod in agreement*

The pistol hit the corner causing it to break the vertical 180. I know, it's no excuse for proper gun handling and/or muzzle awareness. I will learn from this!

Quote:
-Sell you self to the RO that you are safe. What to I mean?
I actually try to do that... At the very least, say, after a stage is finished - I don't go through the motions of showing clear, slide, hammer, etc. I actually SLOW down to a halt and listen/wait each and every instruction from the RO before acting on it.

And yes, as you have stated - finger on the trigger guard as opposed to being in the frame. I actually spent hours of dry fire ensuring that during draws, reloads, etc. that my finger is ON THE FRAME.

Quote:
-After the first sting, I would have grabbed a mag, run around the corner, and the finish the reload as I present to the next string on the other side of the stage.
Ah! Yes, that would definitely be faster and/or shall I say, less complex.


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  #24  
Old 06-18-2018, 9:32 PM
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Though I would agree with what you said in regards to safety, your presumption about my post/intent is quite, shall I say, definitely a dick move.

However, this is NOT the place nor the venue for such gripe. I have PMed you for which you could choose to respond or not.
And as I responded by PM, I'm glad you took my post to heart.
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Old 06-20-2018, 9:43 AM
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These things are learning experience. Muzzle direction is one of those infractions that is easy to catch because it's very visual.

The only grief I would give you is that you broke the 180 due to poor technique (for the lack of better word) and not because of a slight body off-angle.

If you look at your movement during run up range, you not only had the proper muzzle direction, but also proper technique - you kept the gun to the back of you, well within the downrange direction. If you managed to break the 180 during that run, it would have been a "polishing" issue about getting your direction correctly.

However, when you rounded the corner, even if you managed not to break the 180 it would have still been a very incorrect way to move around it. Compare to someone running up range with the gun pointed to the ground, and not to the back the way you did it - it's wrong whether muzzle stays safe or not.
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Old 06-20-2018, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by colt11 View Post
I got my first and only DQ at Palm Springs Gun Club in 1996, and I was furious untill I realized, and came to terms, that I broke the 180 rule (no video evidence back then).
As a side issue, video evidence is NOT allowed in USPSA in any form. The DQ is based solely on the observation and the statement by the RO.

(Just got my USPSA RO credentials in Palm Springs last week.)
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Old 06-20-2018, 9:57 AM
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The primary rule of any shooting sport is safety. Getting a DQ for violating that principle is cause for embarrassment rather than a chuckle for most people who understand the dire need for safety in shooting sports.
Why embarrassment? To feel embarrassed would be to believe that humans are infallible and that "human error" is a matter of carelessness. While it could be, it's more often not.

Safety protocols in shooting sports, as well as in many other activities (e.g., flying, scuba diving, sky diving) are there to minimize possibility of errors. There is tremendous amount of work and though that goes into designing *safety layers* so individual infractions are not catastrophic.

The OPs video is a good example - finger off the trigger and no people in the vicinity are two layers that made the infraction much less potentially dangerous. He still got DQ because he violated *one* safety layer and he has to work on his technique, but, if anything, the system worked as designed - single violation was non-catastrophic.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:34 AM
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Why embarrassment? To feel embarrassed would be to believe that humans are infallible and that "human error" is a matter of carelessness. While it could be, it's more often not.
Nearly all safety based DQs (including the OPs, as was my own) are due to carelessness. Carelessness with a gun has a higher likelihood of getting someone maimed or killed than in most other sports. And since safety is the foundation of these games, the exhibition of the opposite should be a point of embarrassment.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:16 PM
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I'm not downplaying safety violations, merely pointing out that if it was a simple matter of "careful" vs. "careless," we would only have one safety rule, e.g., "don't pull the trigger when you don't intend to shoot." Any ND/AD would clearly be a violation of this rule, so why the extra fluff?

The reason we have layers of safety rules and protocols that are designed to minimize inevitable infractions is precisely because human nature doesn't work in a simple binary mode - safe vs. unsafe.

In the context of OP, "careless" would be to keep the finger on the trigger while sweeping people behind him without realizing that he is doing any of it. As it stands, his muzzle was at an angle that is generally safe and it wasn't a violation of any of the four core safety rules. Sure, it was completely avoidable since it was just an incorrect way to walk around a barrier, but I wouldn't elevate it to "negligent" or "careless." It's a safety violation and a deserved DQ.

I would compare it to "reloading while running to the right." The position of the wrist can push the muzzle very close to 180, or slightly over it. It's still a DQ, but not really negligence.

If I were to accept your reasoning, we would all be "inherently unsafe" (because we've all done infractions) and sinners who have to live in shame. Instead, I see every violation as a teachable moment where we refine our compliance with the safety protocols and rules.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:58 PM
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I wouldn't elevate it to "negligent" or "careless." It's a safety violation and a deserved DQ.

I would compare it to "reloading while running to the right." The position of the wrist can push the muzzle very close to 180, or slightly over it. It's still a DQ, but not really negligence.

If I were to accept your reasoning, we would all be "inherently unsafe" (because we've all done infractions) and sinners who have to live in shame. Instead, I see every violation as a teachable moment where we refine our compliance with the safety protocols and rules.
I think you and I have different definitions of negligent and careless. I would accept that your examples are not grossly negligent, but they are negligent none the less ("failing to take proper care in doing something").

And, no, someone doesn't need to feel like a sinner living in shame after they break a safety rule (especially if they didn't actually put anyone at risk). But on the scale of emotions, I would expect to see a responsible competitor lean more on the side of embarrassment than humor for a safety DQ. Otherwise, I would have concerns that they would actually view it as a teachable moment.
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Old 06-20-2018, 2:42 PM
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There were 13 DQs in the match including one of the ROs on Friday. 5-6 of the DQs were on one particular stage. I think stage design had something to do with so many DQing on that stage as well (not the one OP DQed on).
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Old 06-20-2018, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Nearly all safety based DQs (including the OPs, as was my own) are due to carelessness. ....
Depends, stage design contributes to it as well. There have been several stages locally where going left to right (most right-handers would choose this stage plan) from every port one would see a single array of targets. However, going from right to left from the leftmost port (as a left-hander) I would see two arrays where the second array would cause one to break the 180. There needed to be another wall between the two arrays to prevent that. This particular match stage builders are either not thinking how a leftie would run the stage or too lazy to put that last wall/barrier or hate lefties and build a DQ trap for them .

As I said, I noticed this on this particular match on multiple occasions. For a newcomer where stage description says "shoot the targets as you see them" it would be a DQ trap for a leftie intentional or not.
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Old 06-20-2018, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Yes, it was a good call, and definitely a learning experience for me. I need to learn/work on movement in corners/retreats.
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Otherwise, I would have concerns that they would actually view it as a teachable moment.
Looks like appropriate attitude to me.

Had he stopped at the laughs or questioned his DQ, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but I don't see anything wrong in being open and accepting responsibility without going into the whole guilt/embarrassment dimension. For one, he actually posted his experience for everyone to see. That's pretty telling that he is thinking about it seriously.
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Old 06-20-2018, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
There were 13 DQs in the match including one of the ROs on Friday. 5-6 of the DQs were on one particular stage. I think stage design had something to do with so many DQing on that stage as well (not the one OP DQed on).
Some people just cant follow instructions!!!!!! They shouldn't be playing with guns......
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Old 06-20-2018, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Some people just cant follow instructions!!!!!! They shouldn't be playing with guns......
Stage design matters. I reloaded on one stage going to my right as a lefty in order not to break the 180 I had to shuffle to the right prior to seating the mag and then turning and almost ran into a pole that was part of the shooting area. Of course this was not an issue for right handers. A good stage design could have moved the stage forward a few feet and leave that pole out of the area.
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Old 06-20-2018, 6:31 PM
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Looks like appropriate attitude to me...That's pretty telling that he is thinking about it seriously.
Quite possibly. The OP sent me a LONG message pointing out how I was wrong about him.

I still think that given the overall lighthearted tone of the original post, a little reminder about the seriousness of safety wasn't out of place.

And a thread the combines the title "First sanctioned USPSA match, and my FIRST DQ" with the quote "Fall 7 times; get up 8"...yeah, I'm still fine with having an initial concern about priorities.
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Old 06-20-2018, 6:47 PM
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Stage design matters. I reloaded on one stage going to my right as a lefty in order not to break the 180 I had to shuffle to the right prior to seating the mag and then turning and almost ran into a pole that was part of the shooting area. Of course this was not an issue for right handers. A good stage design could have moved the stage forward a few feet and leave that pole out of the area.
I will repeat "just for you" .....Some people just cant follow instructions!!!!!! They shouldn't be playing with guns......
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Old 06-21-2018, 8:15 AM
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Default Safety first...

Before I posted I did a quick background check on myself...
Joined USPSA in 6/2013 It's been a great 5 years!!!
Life Long shooting and hunting experience, mostly shotgun and small bore pistol.
In college I shot Bullseye style matches at a local club.
RO since April 2015
Mostly been shooting Multigun the past 2 years.
I'm just a regular guy, and a B shooter. Wish I had started this 20 years ago!
I certainly have much more to learn... and really enjoy the sport!

That said... I'm going to throw in my 2 cents ....
_________________________________

For me it all comes down to "HaHaHaHa"......

I would prefer to see someone start such a thread (if they must) with....
"I F'd up"!

Nothing funny about a safety violation. Personally it is embarrassing. We participate in a sport that requires the upmost level of safety. Anything less than that puts our self and others at risk. This particular mistake is especially troubling because in my opinion, the OP had a complete disconnect with how he was handling his firearm... for an extended period of time. Not to say a momentary mistake is better (reloads come to mind). Dropping a loaded firearm probably makes the top of my list of screwups that should be avoided(the 2 I've observed, speed was the primary cause factor) And anyone who blows an up range start by either drawing to soon, or turning the wrong way should not be allowed back on the range without some serious remedial training. And ND's need no discussion here.

My squad mates have been my best "Instructors" regarding stage preparation...and then shooting the stage. I'm fortunate to shoot with some great people who are willing to share their knowledge. It has allowed me to improve as a competitor, and as a person, by absorbing the experience of others.

Cw
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:09 AM
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OK. For the teaching moment how could have OP run that stage without the 180 violation.

1) You started on the wrong side for a right hander. Though in reality on that stage you did not even need to go to the port on the right. Two steps to the right to the shooting area boundary and you could have seen all 4 targets on the right saving you a round trip.

2) Starting on the Left (assuming there would have been a trip to the port on the right) you would have dumped your mag and be running up range with the gun over your left shoulder as a right hander, finish reload as you are passing in front of the Cooper tunnel (going left to right for a right hander reloading is not going to break 180).

3) Go to right port as you did and run up range trailing the gun as you did after dumping the mag. At the entrance to the Cooper tunnel you turn towards down range, bring the gun to the front, finish reload while facing down range (and avoid 180) and enter the tunnel at a slower pace as dictated by the height of the tunnel (54").

So, what did these 3 steps too. First not only reloading in front of the tunnel would be faster, but it also moved the gun in front of you after a run up range while changing directions and going down range, and made the sequences of movements safer. The reason I said start on left first is so you can reload in front of the tunnel while still moving at a good pace and not break the 180. If you start on the right you have to square down range as a right hander in order not to be breaking the 180 while running (or stop and reload).

It really is not that hard, but part of stage planning is to plan movements and reloads in a way so that there is no chance of having a safety violation.
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  #40  
Old 06-21-2018, 12:45 PM
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That it be said to all - If people find concern in the SEMANTICS on how I felt after that DQ - all is good with me! It is within your perogative as such... And I can't please everyone!

Personally, if I have taken the necessary actions to ensure that this doesn't happen again - I am good!

If my friends/acquaintances whom I reached out to in helping me to ensure that this doesn't happen again are comfortable in the next steps that I have taken and will take - I am good!
(note: Said friends/acquaintances are also RO/SO/MD - so, I guess no one has a concern there?)

If I am receptive to tips/suggestions from people (you know who you are) in the forums (competitive or otherwise, CalGuns or otherwise) and I ACTION on those tips/suggestions - I am good! BTW - I AM GRATEFUL for those folks that are helpful to me ensuring that this doesn't happen again.


Even the staff went to me, "... I am sorry to call you on the DQ... I appreciate the professionalism in accepting the DQ..." and I just had to stop them, "... nothing to apologize! It was a GOOD call...! Let it be a teaching moment for me..."


Yes, I have failed. I have F&CKED up! So, what should I do? Dwell and sulk on my mistakes? I'd rather spend my time fixing the problem, the ROOT CAUSE! At the very least, I was very open to admitting I F@CKED up!

I would understand that people have different styles of getting their point across; but if the best you guys can come up with is admonish wordplay (like a "Hahaha") and something that is PAST, then there is nothing else for me to say...



And for those that still don't understand what "Fall down 7 times; get up 8..." (which is typical of the Samurai culture of Japan), here is an excerpt from Google:

Quote:
Fall down seven times, get up eight 七転び八起き

Japanese culture and ways of thinking can not be adequately addressed in a short space, but this Japanese proverb reflects an important and shared ideal: "Nana korobi ya oki" (literally: seven falls, eight getting up) means fall down seven times and get up eight. This speaks to the Japanese concept of resilience. No matter how many times you get knocked down, you get up again. Even if you should fall one thousand times, you just keep getting up and trying again. You can see this ethic reinforced in all facets of Japanese culture including education, business, sports, the martial arts, the Zen arts, etc. It is especially important to remember the sentiment expressed in this proverb when times are dark. There are no quick fixes in life and anything of real worth will necessarily take much struggle and perseverance. Success does not have to be fast - whatís more important is that one simply does their absolute best and remains persistent.
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