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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #121  
Old 05-28-2018, 6:18 AM
Ki6vsm Ki6vsm is offline
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Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
the hyperswitch is a spring loaded takedown pin. by flipping it it automatically opens so you dont have to pull it at all.
I'm sorry Protohyp, but are you capable of talking only about your own products? I wasn't asking about it. The whole point of my post was to veer away from any particular mfr's little way of doing this.

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Originally Posted by rivraton View Post
No, because, 1. no pistol grip 2. no flash hider 3. no barrel shroud 4. not black and scary...
Technically, it does have a barrel shroud. The actual barrel and chamber reciprocates with recoil inside of an outer tube.

But my point was that an AR with a bolted-in (for sake of making things more difficult to remove, not that it actually matters) magazine is not an AW, so it can have all that stuff. So if you stripped down the weapon and reassembled it w/o the mag components... blah blah blah...

LOL. Okay. I'll stop talking about it. It's only a "theory" have about this arrangement. And as Cannoneer and others keep saying, we don't know anything until there is a test case. I will be like everyone else and play it very safe.

Hope you all have a good Memorial Day!
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  #122  
Old 05-28-2018, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this being "just" a definition. They are describing an allowable action to be performed "before the magazine may be removed". Strongly implies you can remove it. Or were you talking about leaving it out indefinitely? That seems to be a huge question mark, with people on both sides.

As far as what's found in the law literally, like "ability to fire", that's going to happen later when the laws get interpreted. They don't have to be all that literal. Take Roe vs. Wade. The 14th Amendment doesn't explicitly say "a woman is allowed an abortion". The people who wrote the 14th probably had no idea what an abortion is. But that is how the SC interpreted the 14th much later on.
No, they are describing how the magazine must be attached to the firearm to make it a "fixed magazine". The definition is just that. It is not saying that it is allowable or legal to remove such a magazine and have an otherwise mechanically whole firearm that would fit the definition of AW.
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  #123  
Old 05-28-2018, 8:28 AM
Ki6vsm Ki6vsm is offline
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Hmm. I know it's a semantic fine line, but the reg does say "may be removed", not "could be removed". If it says could, that would leave room for a court to argue that it's physically possible but a person shouldn't do it. However, "may", by its basic definition, can be a granting of permission as well as just possibility. Like the rest of this stuff, it depends on what was in the person's head when he/she wrote it out and the others reviewed it, etc. If it doesn't grant permission, they chose and odd and I think misleading word to use.

We're stuck in a wait-see-mode.
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  #124  
Old 05-28-2018, 8:59 AM
Ki6vsm Ki6vsm is offline
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To add, the other problem with that statement is passive voice. "may be removed"... doesn't indicate by whom. This is definitely where I see your "description" analysis coming into play. I see this now. Saying "may be removed" isn't quite the same as saying "the owner/operate may then remove the magazine". Because of this definition aspect. So you may be right here Cannoneer. (See what I did there.)

Still seems odd to me that lawmakers would use the word "may" in any context except to make something legally allowable. They must have strict guidelines on the use of such terms. As part of my job I've written a lot of software functional requirements, and we have strict rules about the use of "shall", "should", "must", and "may". I can only assume they do as well.
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  #125  
Old 05-28-2018, 9:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
To add, the other problem with that statement is passive voice. "may be removed"... doesn't indicate by whom. This is definitely where I see your "description" analysis coming into play. I see this now. Saying "may be removed" isn't quite the same as saying "the owner/operate may then remove the magazine". Because of this definition aspect. So you may be right here Cannoneer. (See what I did there.)

Still seems odd to me that lawmakers would use the word "may" in any context except to make something legally allowable. They must have strict guidelines on the use of such terms. As part of my job I've written a lot of software functional requirements, and we have strict rules about the use of "shall", "should", "must", and "may". I can only assume they do as well.
This is the same type of brainstorming that happened when the first OLLs entered CA and again when D. Prince and Rad were first figuring out if a bullet button type devise was legal. Unfortunately, in this case, it might show what is not legal. If that's the case, hashing this out now might keep a lot of innocent gun owners from facing legal issues.

BTW, thanks for pointing out the "may" vs. "shall", "must", etc.
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  #126  
Old 05-28-2018, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Technically, it does have a barrel shroud. The actual barrel and chamber reciprocates with recoil inside of an outer tube.
Barrel shroud is not a feature on a rifle, only a pistol
Pistol grip
Folding stock
Telescoping stock
Thumbhole stock
Flash hider
Grenade launcher
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #127  
Old 05-28-2018, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Barrel shroud is not a feature on a rifle, only a pistol
Pistol grip
Folding stock
Telescoping stock
Thumbhole stock
Flash hider
Grenade launcher
Yeah, I wasn't really sure why he said barrel shroud. It's not an AW rife feature.
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  #128  
Old 05-28-2018, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Yeah, I wasn't really sure why he said barrel shroud. It's not an AW rife feature.
A lot of people still confuse the federal features list from the 1994 ban with the California ban list.
A lot of people have asked about the best way to pin and weld a thread protector to their featureless builds, and best gas block/FSB to use to eliminate the bayonet lug.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #129  
Old 05-28-2018, 2:38 PM
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Ok so bottom line:

I can have an empty mag in my Fixed-Mag AR while transporting and still carry loaded 10 rounders in my range bag correct?

I then get to the range, open the action, trade for a loaded mag, close the action and I'm GTG?

As long as I never "close" the action without a magazine I am fine?
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  #130  
Old 05-28-2018, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Yeah, I wasn't really sure why he said barrel shroud. It's not an AW rife feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
A lot of people still confuse the federal features list from the 1994 ban with the California ban list.
A lot of people have asked about the best way to pin and weld a thread protector to their featureless builds, and best gas block/FSB to use to eliminate the bayonet lug.
Ok, my bad, isn't the barrel shroud the shoulder thing that goes up?
My point was that the rifle he was using as an exemplar, was "featureless"
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  #131  
Old 05-28-2018, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rivraton View Post
My point was that the rifle he was using as an exemplar, was "featureless"
I dunno... are you sure it doesn't have a shoulder thing that goes up?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #132  
Old 05-28-2018, 9:38 PM
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My M14 had a shoulder thing that went up, M60 too... evil!
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  #133  
Old 05-29-2018, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rivraton View Post
Ok, my bad, isn't the barrel shroud the shoulder thing that goes up?
My point was that the rifle he was using as an exemplar, was "featureless"
Yeah I know. I do think it was an interesting coincidence that you mentioned barrel shroud when the Model 8 is one of the very few original designs that actually does have something you could call a barrel shroud, and that it serves a vital purpose.
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