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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-09-2019, 9:19 AM
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Default Trump and Background Checks

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2019/0...reassures-nra/

Thoughts? Perhaps someone with better knowledge can help me understand the concept of “stronger” background checks. What additional checks can they do? Is it different outside of California?
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:22 AM
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...l-be-respected

Another article from Fox News.
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:30 AM
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Given the last administration wouldn't even let the NRA into the building, I'll give this a chance and see what they come up with. A productive dialogue means considering someone's point of view when they tell you why something won't help, and asking them what will... It's not just a "yes" meeting...
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:30 AM
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LOL this reminds when he requested Feinstien write down her proposals !

President Trump is campaigning ! He says these things knowing they stick out as soundbites for those who follow FAKE NEWS .

Still it will not hurt to politely contact senator Mitch and the president to tell them of your opposition.
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:42 AM
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Maybe one of the republicans can slip a bitter pill in this. Add National Reciprocity and end Gun Free Zones.
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gobler View Post
Maybe one of the republicans can slip a bitter pill in this. Add National Reciprocity and end Gun Free Zones.
I suspect that is already in the mix.
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
https://www.dailybulletin.com/2019/0...reassures-nra/

Thoughts? Perhaps someone with better knowledge can help me understand the concept of “stronger” background checks. What additional checks can they do? Is it different outside of California?
From a Feb 2019 NPR article. (Outside of California)
Quote:
Currently a gun seller has to wait three business (sic) for federal investigators to conduct (sic) background check. Most checks are quick, but incomplete data can sometimes cause a delayed response. If the delay lasts more than three business days, the gun sale can move forward.

The Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2019 (Passed by the House) expands the background check period to ten days, (nation-wide) with the potential to be extended another ten.
and,
Quote:
An amendment to give federal background checkers access to a larger criminal database called the National Data Exchange failed to get enough support, and was withdrawn. Proponents of the idea say it would make up for information gaps in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS.
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:58 AM
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FIFY:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobler View Post
Maybe one of the republicans can slip a bitter pill in this. Add National ReciprocityRight to Carry and end Gun Free Zones.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:13 AM
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Thanks, Dvrjon. Assuming one is ok with a background check (not a waiting period), what would the opposition to this enhanced check be?
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:28 AM
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If background checks work, why are there still limitations? Let us have full auto.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CessnaDriver View Post
If background checks work, why are there still limitations? Let us have full auto.
For that I would be OK with storage laws. I have a nice gun safe anyway.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:46 AM
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I haven't searched nor have I seen the media touting how effective background checks are. Is there any data supporting how many people have been 'stopped' by background check?

Logic tells me that a majority of the people who would fail a background check already know they will fail and would use other methods such as straw purchase, theft, street buy, etc.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:03 AM
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There, allegedly, is a few basic concepts in our legal system that are utterly ignored by this background check system. Namely the presumption of innocence and due process. Anyone who cares about natural and civil rights and the rule of law must oppose background checks as a matter of principle. Our system of government is supposed to protect our rights not be used as a weapon to trample them.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:22 AM
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I think background checks would lose Trump 2020. If gun owners don’t show up in the rust belt he loses because the margins are so thin.

We have seen Trump placate Democrats and try to play the political middle on certain issues. He’s not very good at doing it without pissing off his base, but in the end he almost always sides with his voters.

I hope this is all talk, but I will be pretty pissed if Trump signs universal background checks or the senate passes them. In the end the democrats will need 13 republicans to side with them in the senate. That will be tough. They could probably get 5-6, but after that you start getting into truly conservative states.

My gut tells me this is Cocaine Mitch and Trump’s way of blaming the senate for inaction in order to take the political heat off Trump before 2020. If the senate fails then independents won’t be as apt to blame Trump and his base will forgive him because nothing happened.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:24 AM
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The Democrats just want more laws, but they're unwilling to trade or give up anything for what they want.
A true negotiation means EACH side gets something from the other side.

Trump shouldn't even consider giving the libs even the smallest concession, without something in return.

My biggest fear is that Trump is getting shaky on all of this. He seems to just sway back and forth in the breeze, landing wherever his gut feeling for that particular day takes him. It's nerve-wracking to watch this man discuss policy and negotiations.

If Trump wants to be re-elected in 2020, he better as hell not collapse under this Dem pressure.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:38 AM
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The Republicans will cave in to make the Democrats happy.
They almost always do!

Take care
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertkjjj View Post
The Democrats just want more laws, but they're unwilling to trade or give up anything for what they want.
A true negotiation means EACH side gets something from the other side.

Trump shouldn't even consider giving the libs even the smallest concession, without something in return.

My biggest fear is that Trump is getting shaky on all of this. He seems to just sway back and forth in the breeze, landing wherever his gut feeling for that particular day takes him. It's nerve-wracking to watch this man discuss policy and negotiations.

If Trump wants to be re-elected in 2020, he better as hell not collapse under this Dem pressure.
True. If the democrats really wanted to negotiate they would offer federal protection of 15rd pistol caliber magazines. That’s pretty benign and would show good faith, but they don’t care finding common ground at all.
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Old 08-09-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abenaki View Post
The Republicans will cave in to make the Democrats happy.
They almost always do!

Take care
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That's because Republican's actually also wants more restriction on guns, just needed excuse to vote in that direction. Remember both Reb and Dem are the government, and as always, the government do not like any checks on their power.

Dem knows this, so why would they even consider any negotiation?
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Old 08-09-2019, 3:04 PM
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If we're working in the political world rather than an honest discussion of rights and the Constitution then this is the time Democrats and their supposed willingness to deal is tested. There is no reason, should UBC be passed, to prohibit buying across state lines.

With UBC as a national requirement I ought to be able to walk into a gun store in NV or MA or AL, submit to the nationwide background check and walk out with a gun. It would be my responsibility to comply with the laws of the state I purchase in, travel through and return to. If I buy a pistol in MA and don't have an LTC, or buy a conventionally configured AK in NV and get pinched driving through Colfax, that's on me.

The days of "we can check only your state" as justification for requiring residency are long gone.

I'm not saying UBC should happen. In fact, asking for something in return doesn't comport with the usual "compromise = this is what you surrender" so I'd expect requiring it of the other side makes UBC tank.
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Old 08-09-2019, 3:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walmart_ar15 View Post
That's because Republican's actually also wants more restriction on guns, just needed excuse to vote in that direction. Remember both Reb and Dem are the government, and as always, the government do not like any checks on their power.

Dem knows this, so why would they even consider any negotiation?
What should make Democrats negotiate is Republicans knowing they'll lose offices if they screw us. Unlike CA, where equivocation is king, that can work. But it takes effort and hanging together.
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Old 08-09-2019, 3:08 PM
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One problem is the name. "background checks"

Ok, so they delete all records after? LOL

Nope. It's background check and government gun purchases list.
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Old 08-09-2019, 3:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC-J View Post
I haven't searched nor have I seen the media touting how effective background checks are. Is there any data supporting how many people have been 'stopped' by background check?

Logic tells me that a majority of the people who would fail a background check already know they will fail and would use other methods such as straw purchase, theft, street buy, etc.
You would be surprised! Talking to a local shop the other day, he said he averages 2 denials per month, not to mention delays.

I believe that if a person is denied for a felony or any other serious matter, the DOJ should be knocking at there door to have a conversation. A violent felon attempting to purchase a firearm should be automatic grounds for termination. This would be a “common sense” gun law IMO.

But again, we don’t even enforce the gun laws that are already written in to law. We also give criminals a slap on the wrist for too many crimes. The democrats are creating there own hell and think depending on the gubment will fix it
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Old 08-09-2019, 4:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTC-J View Post
I haven't searched nor have I seen the media touting how effective background checks are. Is there any data supporting how many people have been 'stopped' by background check?

Logic tells me that a majority of the people who would fail a background check already know they will fail and would use other methods such as straw purchase, theft, street buy, etc.
Logic fails when reviewing human behavior. Let’s look at logic from the viewpoint of TSA:
Quote:
A record number of firearms were discovered at U.S. airport checkpoints last year, with more than 4,200 guns found at 249 airports nationwide, according to new government data. More than 86 percent of the guns found were loaded, according to the Transport Security Administration (TSA).
I would suspect that a lot of people don’t realize the 10-day wait is more than a cooling off period.
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Old 08-09-2019, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CessnaDriver View Post
One problem is the name. "background checks"

Ok, so they delete all records after? LOL

Nope. It's background check and government gun purchases list.
This goes back several decades. Many point to 1976 where, in an article in The New Yorker, the outfit that became the Brady Campaign outlined a plan for handguns. One way or the other, however, leading Democrats have openly declared, on numerous occasions, that background checks will be utilized to create a national registry; said registry being the only way that such background checks could actually function to do the job they are publicly promoted as supposedly accomplishing. That's without even addressing the other rights which will be infringed to ensure such checks do what they are supposed to.

Once again, if you mention that, you are accused of 'conspiracy theory' and 'paranoia' for simply holding Liberals to what they say they intend doing. Realize, however, that it's not just me. From 3/4/19... Universal background checks a prelude to national registration, says gun rights advocate

Quote:
Gun rights advocate John Lott Jr. said in an interview that aired Monday on Hill.TV's "Rising" that the passage of universal background checks would signify a prelude to a national gun registration.

"If you get a Democratic president, and they were to pass something like these universal background checks, I think it's just a prelude to having national registration of guns," Lott Jr., the author of "The War on Guns," told host Buck Sexton last week at the Conservative Political Action Conference...


Of course, we know what the next step is after registration. Just because it hasn't happened, yet, doesn't mean that's not the plan. Remember, it's not 'paranoia' if it's a proven fact that there are those actively engaged in doing you harm. Also bear in mind that if it doesn't happen in your lifetime, you don't necessarily want to be remembered as the generation which set the stage for it to happen in the next generation.
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Old 08-09-2019, 4:47 PM
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Trump is worried about his prospects in 2020. One of his campaign directors was just on Fox with Trish Regan. He flat out said, if we keep losing the suburban moms like in 2018 Trump is toast. Trish Regan the other day got into it with Dana Loesch, ex. NRA honcho. Regan wants Trump to push for red flag, background checks, and yes, no more assault so called weapons. If Trump feels this is going to cost him the suburbs I am sure he will go for some or maybe all of it. The other side is then the hard core base won't show up, and he can lose either way. FL and OH have been putting in more restrictions, and the Senator from FL is good friends with Trump. OH also is a make or break state for 2020. OH is now pushing gun laws after last Sat. It is going to be an interesting few months ahead.
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Old 08-09-2019, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by louie View Post
Trump is worried about his prospects in 2020. One of his campaign directors was just on Fox with Trish Regan. He flat out said, if we keep losing the suburban moms like in 2018 Trump is toast. Trish Regan the other day got into it with Dana Loesch, ex. NRA honcho. Regan wants Trump to push for red flag, background checks, and yes, no more assault so called weapons. If Trump feels this is going to cost him the suburbs I am sure he will go for some or maybe all of it. The other side is then the hard core base won't show up, and he can lose either way. FL and OH have been putting in more restrictions, and the Senator from FL is good friends with Trump. OH also is a make or break state for 2020. OH is now pushing gun laws after last Sat. It is going to be an interesting few months ahead.
You have to wonder, if he's concerned about losing 'suburban moms,' how Trump would react if you showed him this study; where one of the findings was...

Quote:
Two policies—universal background checks and “may issue” laws that required a heightened showing of suitability for concealed carry—were associated with lower firearm homicide rates in large cities but were not associated with firearm homicide rates in suburban and rural areas.
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Old 08-09-2019, 5:24 PM
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Talking about it till the heats off, his checks will also include something that the dems wont agree to. Slowly fades away...
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Old 08-09-2019, 6:15 PM
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Trump is going to lose Suburban moms if he keeps his incessant tweets and attacks and rhetoric up. He literally just has to shut the **** and only talk about accomplishments, and he will handily win 2020. If he loses, it will be his own damn fault and I support this man like crazy. So it is rather infuriating to see.

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Trump is worried about his prospects in 2020. One of his campaign directors was just on Fox with Trish Regan. He flat out said, if we keep losing the suburban moms like in 2018 Trump is toast.
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abenaki View Post
The Republicans will cave in to make the Democrats happy.
They almost always do!

Take care
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Give me a few recent examples where the GOP has caved to make democrats happy.
I must have missed it, because 8 years of Obama every gun scheme didn't go anywhere.
OK Fast and furious that was secret and Op chokepoint that the GOP stopped dead!
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walmart_ar15 View Post
That's because Republican's actually also wants more restriction on guns, just needed excuse to vote in that direction. Remember both Reb and Dem are the government, and as always, the government do not like any checks on their power.

Dem knows this, so why would they even consider any negotiation?
Show me where the GOP wants more restrictions. Its in our platform that we are opposed to any gun restriction schemes.
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Last edited by ja308; 08-13-2019 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 08-10-2019, 12:05 AM
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Ok back ground checks

IF and AFTER

You build the wall, New Democrat Bolsheviks- Authorize- and provide the money

And- deport all illegal alien criminals- stop them from coming in, make it- illegally entering the country- a felony with no chance of return to our country.

And- initiate back ground checks in depth- for people who want to immigrate here, merit based only.

Commit a felony crime five years after entering the country? loss of citizenship- deported to home of origin.

National voter ID

National standard for CCP/CCW

Enforce all Federal drug laws. Jail those elected officials- who enabled the sales of illegal drugs, contrary to federal law, taxed it and became wealthy from the sales of illegal drugs.

Stop issuing DL's to illegal alien criminals. Nation wide.

Harsh penalties and immediate deportation for illegal aliens who commit crimes on our soil.

After you do the above- we can talk.

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Old 08-10-2019, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfpcservice View Post
Given the last administration wouldn't even let the NRA into the building, I'll give this a chance and see what they come up with. A productive dialogue means considering someone's point of view when they tell you why something won't help, and asking them what will... It's not just a "yes" meeting...
Considering the NRA sold us out the last time around, with bump stocks, I'm not filled with confidence.

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Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
Thanks, Dvrjon. Assuming one is ok with a background check (not a waiting period), what would the opposition to this enhanced check be?
I heard on the radio today that a waiting period might be coming "to finish the background check". CA people are used to it, but it's exceedingly repulsive to many of us in the United States.
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Old 08-10-2019, 6:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
https://www.dailybulletin.com/2019/0...reassures-nra/

Thoughts? Perhaps someone with better knowledge can help me understand the concept of “stronger” background checks. What additional checks can they do?
They will require all firearm transfers go through federally licensed dealers who aren't required to handle private transfers and are allowed to charge as much as they want to limit competition with sales from their inventory.

This will have strong support from the National Alliance of Stocking Gun Dealers like the mail order ban included in the Gun Control Act of 1968.

They could open NICS access to non-licensees and require private citizens to use that for checks or allow sales to people holding a document proving they passed a background check like a CCW permit or passport with the correct annotation.

They won't because the US government acts on behalf of corporatist interests, making gun ownership less convenient will reduce it, and requiring sales go through dealers is the first step towards registration allowing confiscation.


Quote:
Is it different outside of California?
In most states law abiding adults can sell each other guns directly like any other legal product, with no background check, cash and carry with no waiting period. Those aren't the states with high murder rates which come from urbanization increasing the cost of living and lack of economic opportunity for poor children growing up there.

Background checks are BS.

Far fewer than 1 in 10,000 prohibited people rejected for firearm purchases are prosecuted for attempting to buy guns although that crime is punishable by 5 years in federal prison.

(NICS checks aren’t performed until the customer fills out a Form 4473, and the crime is lying on that form).

Hundreds of thousands of those felons will go on to get guns elsewhere, and NICS is doing nothing to keep guns out of their hands.

See Audit of the Handling of Firearms Purchase Denials Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System by the US Justice Department Office of the Inspector General

https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2016/a1632.pdf

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 08-10-2019 at 6:44 AM..
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Old 08-10-2019, 7:55 AM
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Trump is playing along because he knows any gun laws are non-starters in congress. It is a safe position claiming he's for something he knows will never pass.
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Old 08-10-2019, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by USMCmatt View Post
Trump is going to lose Suburban moms if he keeps his incessant tweets and attacks and rhetoric up. He literally just has to shut the **** and only talk about accomplishments, and he will handily win 2020. If he loses, it will be his own damn fault and I support this man like crazy. So it is rather infuriating to see.
Everyone really loves his tweets !
Here is a recent example where a San Antonio politician ( Joquuen Castro ) doxed business that donated to Trump in an effort to hurt them financially.

The exact opposite happened where people were lined up around the block to buy from this guy !

https://twitchy.com/brads-313037/201...ming-business/

You really should listen to Rush !
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Last edited by ja308; 08-10-2019 at 8:00 AM..
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Old 08-10-2019, 8:06 AM
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California has the most comprehensive universal background checks and ....

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Study does not find population-level changes in firearm homicide or suicide rates in California 10 years after comprehensive background check and violent misdemeanor policies enacted
https://health.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/13362

Even our own propaganda research group at UC Davis could not find a reduction due to California background checks.
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Old 08-10-2019, 8:42 AM
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California has the most comprehensive universal background checks and ....

Quote:
Study does not find population-level changes in firearm homicide or suicide rates in California 10 years after comprehensive background check and violent misdemeanor policies enacted.
https://health.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/13362

Even our own propaganda research group at UC Davis could not find a reduction due to California background checks.
But wait, they immediately explain why:
Quote:
Incomplete background-check records, absence of permit-to-purchase provision, and compliance among possible explanations for findings.
Better yet,
Quote:
In separate survey research from VPRP, approximately 15 percent to 20 percent of firearm owners in California reported that their most recent firearm purchases did not involve background checks. Further analysis is in progress; as mentioned, noncompliance with background check requirements may help explain the findings of the current study.
That seems highly improbable. More probable is that 20 percent of purchasers don’t know that a background check is being done while they are undergoing a 10-day “cooling off” period.
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Old 08-10-2019, 8:59 AM
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There will be much smoke and mirrors with ultimately no big changes.
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Old 08-10-2019, 9:08 AM
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There will be much smoke and mirrors with ultimately no big changes.
Why is that and do you approve ?
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Old 08-10-2019, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Trump is playing along because he knows any gun laws are non-starters in congress. It is a safe position claiming he's for something he knows will never pass.
^^^THIS^^^

Plus Mitch can load it with some poison pills. Trump and the Republicans suddenly become the people pushing for Reasonable Gun Control and the Dems are once again painted as the petty political Obstructors that they are.

Worked with DACA and Immigration reform. Will work again with this because the Dems will double down on not giving Trump a win.
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We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls.
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