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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 04-19-2018, 5:51 AM
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I’m sure you folks who’ve bought Krieger barrels have seen this “Break-In and Cleaning” sheet before. This came with my .375CT barrel.

FWIW:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Krieger Barrel Break-in Procedure.pdf (1.99 MB, 54 views)
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  #42  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
Iím sure you folks whoíve bought Krieger barrels have seen this ďBreak-In and CleaningĒ sheet before. This came with my .375CT barrel.

FWIW:
Only 13 rounds required for a stainless barrel, not so bad.
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  #43  
Old 04-19-2018, 5:45 PM
1859sharps 1859sharps is offline
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The bigger question that nobody has asked would be what if you don't do a break-in and how does that affect accuracy?
apparently you mistakenly misspelled my name...its not spelled "nobody", it is spelled 1859Sharps...

this is exactly the issue I have been raising. Though I tend to use the phrase "the path not taken" vs what if you didn't break the barrel in.

as to someone having done the studies...I seriously doubt that there has been any. but if you think so, please provide the links, it would make for interesting reading.

The reason I doubt anyone has conducted such a study is because of what it would take. Cost and time before you even fire one round would be huge. To conduct such a study would be expensive and you would need probably 50 specially build rifles minimum. Why so many? Because I am not sure we can prove causation, so that leaves developing a compelling statistical correlation for either a break in process or no break in needed.

The list of variables to try and control is large. All the components that go into the rifle would have to be build as close as identical as possible. the rifles would have to be assembled as close as identical as possible. Ammunition would need to be assembled as close as identical as possible, rifles shot as close as identical as possible. weather, distances etc, etc.

This is why I don't think anyone has ever done a formal test. but maybe someone has since I last googled this topic...but given the cost and time involved I doubt it.

The bottom line...we are ALL making wild *** guesses. some are making their guess based on better information and better critical thinking than others, but still just a guess. no one knows for sure, not even the world class bench rest shooters. not if they haven't taken the time to address the variables, setup a like for like (or as close as is humanly possible) and generated enough data to show pattern.
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  #44  
Old 04-19-2018, 5:56 PM
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The testing was done years ago and posted on Benchrest Central.
I am not going to spend hours looking up links because you would find fault with anything posted by anyone including the link provided from Krieger Barrels above.
For the kinds of groups you are shooting I wouldn't break in a barrel or even clean one.
Cleaning barrels and breaking in barrels isn't for everyone.
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  #45  
Old 04-19-2018, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
The bottom line...we are ALL making wild *** guesses. some are making their guess based on better information and better critical thinking than others, but still just a guess. no one knows for sure, not even the world class bench rest shooters. not if they haven't taken the time to address the variables, setup a like for like (or as close as is humanly possible) and generated enough data to show pattern.
I don't doubt that it would be a huge undertaking to scientifically prove that a barrel break in process is or is not needed. Like you said, there are too many variables to control. Not one barrel is alike when it is produced and that is in my opinion, the number one reason right there why it would be hard to say if a barrel needs break in or it does not and whether that would result in better accuracy. It truly just depends on what you get.

I've had barrels that no matter what I did, the barrel did not perform as expected. Would a better barrel break in have helped?...doubt it. I've sent barrels back to the factory when I couldn't get some of them to shoot or when I borescoped it, the bore had evident tool marks on the lands and grooves. I've also had barrels that right from the get-go, just flat out shot what felt like from shot #1 out of the gun. No barrel break in needed. All barrels were chambered by the same gunsmith, same quality chamber job, same reamer, etc.

So, does it matter? To me, I would say no..only because I know how well my gunsmith chambers my barrels and I feel confident that neither myself nor my gunsmith is the low hanging fruit in the equation. If the barrel doesn't shoot with a known good load or exhibits excessive coppering, it is almost certainly going back to the barrel mfg. If the barrel doesn't shoot after even 50-60 rounds down the barrel, something is definitely up and I will not spend more time and effort to root cause it.

For other people, you need to decide what works for you.
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  #46  
Old 04-19-2018, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
apparently you mistakenly misspelled my name...its not spelled "nobody", it is spelled 1859Sharps...

this is exactly the issue I have been raising. Though I tend to use the phrase "the path not taken" vs what if you didn't break the barrel in.

as to someone having done the studies...I seriously doubt that there has been any. but if you think so, please provide the links, it would make for interesting reading.

The reason I doubt anyone has conducted such a study is because of what it would take. Cost and time before you even fire one round would be huge. To conduct such a study would be expensive and you would need probably 50 specially build rifles minimum. Why so many? Because I am not sure we can prove causation, so that leaves developing a compelling statistical correlation for either a break in process or no break in needed.

The list of variables to try and control is large. All the components that go into the rifle would have to be build as close as identical as possible. the rifles would have to be assembled as close as identical as possible. Ammunition would need to be assembled as close as identical as possible, rifles shot as close as identical as possible. weather, distances etc, etc.

This is why I don't think anyone has ever done a formal test. but maybe someone has since I last googled this topic...but given the cost and time involved I doubt it.

The bottom line...we are ALL making wild *** guesses. some are making their guess based on better information and better critical thinking than others, but still just a guess. no one knows for sure, not even the world class bench rest shooters. not if they haven't taken the time to address the variables, setup a like for like (or as close as is humanly possible) and generated enough data to show pattern.
Bench rest shooters are who is doing the testing and experimenting. Most people try to do what the winners do if they're not winning doing what they've been doing.
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  #47  
Old 04-20-2018, 5:11 AM
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99 and 44/100% of CalGuns shooters don't need to break in there barrels and even fewer own or use a borescope to see what is actually going on.
Don't waste those 10 rounds of surplus FMJ ammo because your groups won't magically shrink to 1/4 moa.
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  #48  
Old 04-20-2018, 6:31 AM
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first let me say i am no david tubbs or bob hoppe...though i do shoot with hoppe every now and then so im pretty sure that makes me a better shooter by association LOL...just kidding!! and i am not a bench shooter.

ive shot out at least 24 barrels in the last 10 years...not counting 2 factory barrels...id have to look back to get an exact number but this is close enough.

ive shot shilen,krieger,bartlein,hawkhill and criterion...of all the barrels ive shot ive had one hummer...it was a heavy varmint bartlein at 26" chambered in 260 rem...i sware you could close your eyes squeeze the trigger and every bullet would go in the same hole...consistent 10 round groups off a rear bag and a bipod that measured .290 edge to edge...my loaded necks were .295.

i will also say that cut rifle barrels are much better barrels from my experience with both cut and button barrels...cut barrels just seem to shoot better and more consistent.

as far as break in...ive done the shoot 1 and clean for X rounds then shoot 5 and clean for X rounds ect and ive also done no break in at all.

as far as cleaning...ive cleaned every time ive shot regardless of rounds fired and ive also NOT cleaned for long periods ...my last 6mm barrel i shot 800 rounds through it before i finally cleaned it and i had a 6.5 barrel i did not clean for 1000 rounds...it got cleaned twice its entire life.

now none of this is scientific by any means but this is what ive found works for me...

break in...i shoot one and clean for 3 rounds then shoot 10 clean and im done...i do this more to see how the barrel holes copper/fouls and also to burnish the barrel

cleaning...now this may just be in my mind but ive found that my barrels seem to shoot more consistent when cleaned after every time i shoot...my current hawkhill barrel takes 2 rounds to foul and i know this by groups and by the magneto speed...round 1 is always 50-60 fps slow round 2 is usually 20fps slow round 3 and all the following are at speed.

i have 1760 rounds on my current barrel and have cleaned every time ive been out but from this point on i will not clean this barrel unless i start to notice accuracy drop of...i am also going to run this barrel until it just dont shoot anymore and by dont shoot i mean when groups are 3/4+ inches at 100yds.

my thoughts are if you feel you need to do some elaborate break in then by all means do...personally i dont think its needed with high end barrels but i do think that shoot and clean for a couple of rounds is a good thing to smooth out the lands/throat before load development.

cleaning...like i say i think my barrels shoot better/more consistent/accurate when clean for about 100-150 rounds but again this may just be in my mind.

in the end you should do what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy because shooting...IMHO...is a huge mind game...if you doubt your equipment or something your doing to or with your equipment your going to have a lotta bad days at the range.

and FYI...i do own a bore scope...something i should not of bought because i can now see whats actually going on in there LOL.
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  #49  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The testing was done years ago and posted on Benchrest Central.
I am not going to spend hours looking up links because you would find fault with anything posted by anyone including the link provided from Krieger Barrels above.
For the kinds of groups you are shooting I wouldn't break in a barrel or even clean one.
Cleaning barrels and breaking in barrels isn't for everyone.
no I would not find fault just because it wasn't provided by Krieger. frankly I would prefer an independent voice vs the manufacture. it just eliminates an additional point of concern.

But unless they did built a few identical rifles (or as close as possible) so they can use X number of the rifles to do one path, and Y number go the other route, all they have done is look at a bunch of samples of 1.

I will poke around benchrest central and see what I can find.
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  #50  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bsumoba View Post
I don't doubt that it would be a huge undertaking to scientifically prove that a barrel break in process is or is not needed. Like you said, there are too many variables to control. Not one barrel is alike when it is produced and that is in my opinion, the number one reason right there why it would be hard to say if a barrel needs break in or it does not and whether that would result in better accuracy. It truly just depends on what you get.
the huge undertaking would be the effort and money that would go into reducing manufacturing/assembly variances to a minimum.

While a 100 yard indoor range isn't common, I am sure there is one out there somewhere that would eliminate most environmental variables.

then of course there is the cost. you need to have enough rifles so that you can have a batch for break in and a batch for no break in. the break in would have to be identical on each rifle in that batch. then based on the statistical result you would have some leg to stand on that says which path people should take.
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  #51  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
Bench rest shooters are who is doing the testing and experimenting. Most people try to do what the winners do if they're not winning doing what they've been doing.
If I am consistently winning. you then study what I am doing, figure out I am doing 10 things. then you do those 10 things and start winning. then someone else starts doing those 10 things...

suddenly you have a bunch of winners all doing the same 10 things....but which one or ones of those 10 things actually contributed to the winning?

how do you know if it was barrel breakin or not
how do you know if it was just the extra dry fire practice
how do you know if it was simply better machining from the gunsmith
how do you know if it wasn't simply the better primers

with something physical such as shooting, there are no one single factors that go into the win. It is the coming together of several that allows one to win. BUT along with those that are actually contributing to the win...there are additional things people do that are not, but believed to be contributing to the win. Thus when there is no data to support they get called "superstition" if it is believed to contribute, but there is no data to support that conclusion when you dive into it.

if you dive into most people's theories about barrel break in, they are chalk full of superstition.
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  #52  
Old 04-20-2018, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
If I am consistently winning. you then study what I am doing, figure out I am doing 10 things. then you do those 10 things and start winning. then someone else starts doing those 10 things...

suddenly you have a bunch of winners all doing the same 10 things....but which one or ones of those 10 things actually contributed to the winning?

how do you know if it was barrel breakin or not
how do you know if it was just the extra dry fire practice
how do you know if it was simply better machining from the gunsmith
how do you know if it wasn't simply the better primers

with something physical such as shooting, there are no one single factors that go into the win. It is the coming together of several that allows one to win. BUT along with those that are actually contributing to the win...there are additional things people do that are not, but believed to be contributing to the win. Thus when there is no data to support they get called "superstition" if it is believed to contribute, but there is no data to support that conclusion when you dive into it.

if you dive into most people's theories about barrel break in, they are chalk full of superstition.
If one of those 10 things the winners don't do is break in the barrel then everyone will be wanting to use that same make of barrel, but the point I was making is bench rest shooter are doing most of the accuracy experimenting that people copy, everything from reloading tech to breaking in barrels and that people don't copy losers, especially if they're accuracy competitors wanting to win.
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  #53  
Old 04-20-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my current hawkhill barrel takes 2 rounds to foul and i know this by groups and by the magneto speed...round 1 is always 50-60 fps slow round 2 is usually 20fps slow round 3 and all the following are at speed.
Longrange; I'm curious: does that (on your rifle) have to do with fouling after cleaning, or does it show up starting any cold bore session?
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  #54  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divingin View Post
Longrange; I'm curious: does that (on your rifle) have to do with fouling after cleaning, or does it show up starting any cold bore session?


Only with cold clean bore...last Tuesday I went out and shot 10 rounds off a new bench I built starting with a clean bore..I didnít clean it after because it was only 10 rounds and as I said I wonít clean this barrel anymore until accuracy drops off.

Saturday I went out and cold bored a 8Ē gong at 1005yds.

Iíve had a couple of barrels that took up to 10 rounds to shoot after cleaning and every barrel Iíve owned has been slightly different.


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  #55  
Old 04-20-2018, 4:59 PM
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It is very common to lose 120 FPS with a squeaky clean barrel and even the cheapest of chronographs will show you that.

The guys advocating lengthy barrel break in periods are not using a borescope to see what is happening.
Breaking in a barrel doesn't make the barrel shoot smaller groups it makes the barrel shoot to its potential sooner by as much as 80 rounds.

1895
Most of the competitive Benchrest shooters have 10-20 barrels chambered up at one time.
The ammo will fit all the barrels the same not just close to the same.
David Tubb doesn't need to break in his barrels.
Robert Hoppe doesnt need to break in his F-Class barrels but his Benchrest barrels are a different story. He is probably in Oregon right now shooting his brother's bullets at the Nationals.
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  #56  
Old 04-20-2018, 8:09 PM
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Your posts and experience have been very helpful and insightful LynnJr.
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2018, 5:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieLivesMatter View Post
Your posts and experience have been very helpful and insightful LynnJr.
Those tiny scratches collect carbon and copper which affects accuracy. The sooner you can get them tamed the sooner your barrel will shoot to its full potential. Benchrest barrels only last 800 rounds so getting to the barrels full potential is important.
When you buy an unlapped barrel it takes 200-300 rounds before it will shoot to its full potential which reduces the total barrel life to 500-600 rounds.
If you don't clean the carbon and copper cover the scratches and it then takes 50-80 rounds to get the accuracy you invested all the money for.
It takes that long because you only fix the scratches with the first shot out of a clean bore.
Takes 15 minutes to do things correctly .
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  #58  
Old 04-23-2018, 8:22 AM
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Shot the new bench gun this weekend. Krieger 6mm barrel. Despite not really buying into the one-and-clean thing, I figured it's better to do and not need it than the other way round.

Starting with a clean barrel, 1st through 5th shot showed a fair amount of copper, about the same amount my 700 leaves after about 50 rds. Next couple of 3-shot groups had about half the amount of copper as the first single. After about 40 rds (2 - 5 shot shot strings w/out cleaning between), I was getting just a slight trace of blue on the patch on the first wet patch. A soak and wet patch showed no additional copper coming out.

Amount of copper deposit continued dropping the next day. 20 rds between cleaning showed the same small (i.e. barely detectable) trace. I'm pretty pleased.

I'm not saying that the "break-in" regimen does anything different than shooting it would have, but it was nice to be able to see the amount of copper fouling dropping off as the shot count progressed.
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Old 04-24-2018, 10:51 AM
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Here's another question:

Suppose I choose to break in to some extent. Should I use the same bullet I intend to mostly shoot through the rifle? For example, I plan to use 140 gr ELD Match in a rifle. I can see 2 reasons to want to use the same stuff to break in.
1) To keep the same copper "formulation" in the barrel. If it's broken in with 1 copper formulation, then shot for effect with another, is that bad?
2) Different ogives would deposit copper in a different place than the bullets I plan to use.

This might be overly nitty to the extreme, especially because this won't be for benchrest, but it would be nice if I could use cheaper bullets for the throwaway break in shots.

Last edited by sigstroker; 04-24-2018 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 04-24-2018, 11:40 AM
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No bullets donít matter...and FYI...Iím an over thinker too.


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  #61  
Old 04-25-2018, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
I can see 2 reasons to want to use the same stuff to break in.
1) To keep the same copper "formulation" in the barrel. If it's broken in with 1 copper formulation, then shot for effect with another, is that bad?
Can't see that being an issue, since you're trying to get all the copper out between shots anyway.


Quote:
2) Different ogives would deposit copper in a different place than the bullets I plan to use.
A) See above.
B) No. Copper get deposited mostly (as I understand it) from vapor deposition. Copper gets scraped off the jacket, turns to plasma in the hot gases, and redeposits itself in the bore. There may some depositing from actual abrasion over rough surfaces, but that is what you're trying to minimize through the break-in.
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Old 04-25-2018, 5:54 PM
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I may be way over thinking things but break in is doing 2 things #1 bullet friction polishes some rough machine marks sticking up #2 carbon fills some rough pit holes . So I use powder that is designed to eleminate copper plating ( CFE ) that way all the copper Deposits are from friction and barrel smooths out quickly a plus being it is a sooty powder that tends to help carbon seasoning .

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  #63  
Old 05-24-2018, 12:22 AM
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rZZOE_...fauxfullscreen
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  #64  
Old 05-24-2018, 8:15 AM
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What a waste of an hour watching that video. The video is geared to the average hunter not someone looking for gilt edge accuracy.
And yes the bullet does make a small difference in break-in and fouling. I use the 220 grain round nose bullets from Sierra to break-in my 30 caliber barrels and to foul them. They have a very long bearing surface and the PHd's at Sierra Bullets will tell you that the longer bearing surface will foul a barrel quicker And they will do that over the phone.
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Old 05-24-2018, 9:19 AM
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Is there any value to using the Tubbs brand Final Finish system?
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Old 05-26-2018, 7:14 AM
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The Tubbs system actually works.
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Old 05-26-2018, 7:27 AM
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thank you, wasn't sure. appreciate the input
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Old 05-26-2018, 2:02 PM
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What a waste of an hour.
Sorry, I did not post the link for your enjoyment or approval.
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Old 06-07-2018, 11:17 AM
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Default Savage barrel break-in procedure

Here's what Savage recommends:

STEP 1 (repeated 10 times)

Fire one round
Push wet patches soaked with a powder solvent through the bore
Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
Push wet patches soaked with a copper solvent through the bore
Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
Push a patch with 2 drops of oil through the bore

STEP 2 (repeated 5 times)

Fire a 3 shot group
Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1 after each group

STEP 3 (repeat 5 times)

Fire a 5 shot group
Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1

Where would be the best place in the bay area to do this? Seems like I'd get yelled at constantly if I tried doing this at any range. I just shot out in an open area up in Seattle recently but there doesn't see to be many places down here like that.

Last edited by dr3do9; 06-07-2018 at 2:02 PM..
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Old 06-07-2018, 11:35 AM
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All I do is give the new barrel/rifle a good cleaning and then run some patches down the barrel impregnated with tungsten disulphide powder in some sort of carrier medium like ordinary gun oil. And I'll lightly coat the projectiles with the same mix. After a few rounds, it's good to go.
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Old 06-07-2018, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr3do9 View Post
Here's what Savage recommends:

STEP 1 (repeated 10 times)

Fire one round
Push wet patches soaked with a powder solvent through the bore
Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
Push wet patches soaked with a copper solvent through the bore
Push a brush through the bore (5 times in each direction)
Push dry patches through the bore (2 times)
Push a patch with 2 drops of oil through the bore

STEP 2 (repeated 5 times)

Fire a 3 shot group
Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1 after each group

STEP 3 (repeat 5 times)

Fire a 5 shot group
Repeat the cleaning procedure from STEP 1
With how rough some savage barrels are inside, that makes sense.
You could even add some fire lapping with 30 grit abrasive to clean them up!
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Old 06-08-2018, 8:30 AM
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Can you do a barrel break in at any range? Will they let you clean your gun during a cease fire?
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:38 AM
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I'm going to tell a little story...

If you're an electric guitar player who has been around a while you know there are two main type of amplifiers, solid state transistor, and vaccum tube valve based amplifiers.

Tube amps are usually louder, more expensive, and much better sounding. A big practical difference being that tube amps need to warm up before making sound and commonly feature a "standby" and "on" switches to the solid state only having one master switch.

The standby switch was included in very early guitar amps to protect the tubes from certain surges during the rudimentary early days. However by the late 60's these switches were no longer necessary (if they ever really were) and a few amp manufacturers decided to save a little money by dropping the extra pointless switch. However, they recieved so many calls and letters inquiring about the damage that could happen to their amps it turned out to be cheaper to just put a pointless switch in there.

And here we are 50 years later, still with pointless standby switches on our amps.

Take what you will from this and how it relates to the myticism surrounding manufacturer recommended break in procedures.
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:10 PM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
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The big difference being, that if the rifle doesn't meet the guaranteed group size, will the manufacturer void the warranty if you didn't follow their recco'd procedure.
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Old 06-08-2018, 1:32 PM
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Sig, that's ridiculous, how would they know?
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Old 06-08-2018, 6:11 PM
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And digital is better than analog
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Old 06-08-2018, 6:19 PM
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Analog has a longer range than digital.
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Old 06-08-2018, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckDizzle View Post
Sig, that's ridiculous, how would they know?
They might ask and I might not be able to lie about it.
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Old 06-08-2018, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
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Analog has a longer range than digital.
I am aware of which is better I was just responding to the apples to lightbulbs comparison.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
And digital is better than analog
Thems fighting words.
And it depends on the sample rate...
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