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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #281  
Old 07-23-2015, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Standish View Post
Was he(jaytil) attempting to say "5 moa delta" as in Δy? Kind of awkward wording.
In fairness, "delta y" would be more clear to folks, in general, as the meaning is clear outside of guns. The x,y,z,t coordinates are universally accepted, except many Europeans will call "z" as "zet" rather than "zee", but we know what they are talking about.
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  #282  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:10 AM
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JMP
I am an old Benchrest Shooter and I don't understand half of what is being posted here.
When someone says cartridge A is better than cartridge B by 5 MOA that is exactly what it means and it needs know explaining.
The kids that post here that don't know MOA can look it up.
Everything doesn't need some slang term to describe it yet we now have RPR.
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  #283  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JMP
I am an old Benchrest Shooter and I don't understand half of what is being posted here.
When someone says cartridge A is better than cartridge B by 5 MOA that is exactly what it means and it needs know explaining.
The kids that post here that don't know MOA can look it up.
Everything doesn't need some slang term to describe it yet we now have RPR.
I think "RPR" was coined in this thread. Everyone knows MOA as they are all "1/2 MOA" or "1/4 MOA" shooters.
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  #284  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:26 AM
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I shoot 1/4 MOA all the time.
Minute Of Albertsons.
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  #285  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:32 AM
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Well, to be fair "RPR" makes sense. No one wants to type out "ruger precision rifle" every time(I don't hunt and peck, but that doesn't mean I want to type something out unless I have to). Just stating "precision rifle" isn't specific enough "ruger rifle" well... there are many. Heck, just look at people typing MOA instead of minute of angle every time in this thread. If Ruger had chosen a shorter name, people would be more likely to just call it that instead.
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  #286  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:53 AM
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I'm guessing many shooters just think MOA means an inch at a hundred yards, and that maybe MIL stands for millimeters 'cause you know, metric...

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  #287  
Old 07-23-2015, 9:45 AM
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Actually after looking over dozens of posted targets here I think Kestryl hit the nail on the head with minute of Albertsons.

Kestryl
Are you doing a write up on your rifle and are you seeking all the various magazines for testing purposes?
Or is this gonna be a private endeavor.
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  #288  
Old 07-23-2015, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by caponord View Post
I'm guessing many shooters just think MOA means an inch at a hundred yards, and that maybe MIL stands for millimeters 'cause you know, metric...

You do understand that it has nothing to do with a distance measurement (i.e. meters). I am not sure whether you are joking, but in case you aren't. It's milliradian as it's the applicable unit of angular measure under the International System based on the scale that shooters will use (1/1000 of a radian). There are 2 Pi radian in a complete circle, which is analogous to 360 degrees in the other system where a minute provides the better scale, where a minute is defined as 60 minutes in a degree and 60 seconds in a minute. For all intents and purposes, the DMS system is obsolete as it does not work out well mathematically. It is the old degree system normalized based on our time convention. Whereas, the International System normalizes with base 10.

Some people call milliradian scopes "cm" scopes because 1 click is 0.1 milliradian, which turns out to be 1cm at 100 meters.

This follows from the fact that tan(1/1000)=0.00100000033, so it would simply round to 1cm under any reasonable interpretation.
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  #289  
Old 07-23-2015, 10:51 AM
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JMP
Thanks for that explanation as it better explains the targets.
When someone posts a 1/4 moa target I will multiply 0.25 by 3.4377 and get 0.859 inches at 100 yards.
This explains those big targets with paper between the holes.
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  #290  
Old 07-23-2015, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JMP

I am an old Benchrest Shooter and I don't understand half of what is being posted here.

When someone says cartridge A is better than cartridge B by 5 MOA that is exactly what it means and it needs know explaining.

The kids that post here that don't know MOA can look it up.

Everything doesn't need some slang term to describe it yet we now have RPR.

If you use vague terms like "better", it might need explaining. I understand MOA. Grammar was more the issue as it is above (no vs know).

It's always nice to come here and find a treasure trove of the grumpiest of grumpy old men condescending rather than teaching.


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  #291  
Old 07-23-2015, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Kestryl
Are you doing a write up on your rifle and are you seeking all the various magazines for testing purposes?
Or is this gonna be a private endeavor.
When I get mine I will be doing a write up and review mostly for here and rprforum.
I'm much more of a handgunner and occasional carbine'r than a rifle aficionado so it will be from an 'Open the box and let's go' perspective.
Very likely the same perspective most of the buyers of this rifle will have since people already in to precision style rifles probably aren't going to buy a 'turnkey' rifle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caponord View Post
I'm guessing many shooters just think MOA means an inch at a hundred yards, and that maybe MIL stands for millimeters 'cause you know, metric...

Seriously, how can you not know this!?!

MOA is the campground two driveways down from the KOA.

MIL is because that is what the MILitary uses!!



let's see how many people blow their frontal lobe from that..
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  #292  
Old 07-23-2015, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
You do understand that it has nothing to do with a distance measurement (i.e. meters). I am not sure whether you are joking, but in case you aren't. It's milliradian as it's the applicable unit of angular measure under the International System based on the scale that shooters will use (1/1000 of a radian). There are 2 Pi radian in a complete circle, which is analogous to 360 degrees in the other system where a minute provides the better scale, where a minute is defined as 60 minutes in a degree and 60 seconds in a minute. For all intents and purposes, the DMS system is obsolete as it does not work out well mathematically. It is the old degree system normalized based on our time convention. Whereas, the International System normalizes with base 10.

Some people call milliradian scopes "cm" scopes because 1 click is 0.1 milliradian, which turns out to be 1cm at 100 meters.

This follows from the fact that tan(1/1000)=0.00100000033, so it would simply round to 1cm under any reasonable interpretation.
LOL... Yes, joking.
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  #293  
Old 07-23-2015, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JMP
Thanks for that explanation as it better explains the targets.
When someone posts a 1/4 moa target I will multiply 0.25 by 3.4377 and get 0.859 inches at 100 yards.
This explains those big targets with paper between the holes.
It's actually easier. For the 1/4 shooters to to just divide 3.6" by 5, and get .9 at 100. 3.6" follows as it is 0.001*100 yards = 0.001* 3,600" = 3.6"

So when the guys talk about being a "1/4" shooter, I think they mean 0.9". When someone is a proficient shooter, he will be able to aim at targets inside of the click tolerance, with is 0.36" at 100 yards.

This is also why you will notice that the "kids" these days have a bit more difficulty zeroing the scope. When you set a precise zero, each scope functions a bit differently to line up the turret to a partial click. If you rely on 0.1 click values, your zero can be off as much as 0.18" in either direction if your natural scope falls in between upon initial mounting or changing your load. With the 1/8 MINUTE scopes that BR shooters use, it's easier to dial it to zero.
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  #294  
Old 07-23-2015, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
The price isn't spectacular by any means. We are letting them go for $1,000 OTD and have 6.5 and 243 models en route
bought a 6.5 from Baboosh. thanks !!

now I need a scope. any recommendation ? not too crazy please....something a $900 gun need. 600 yards max.
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  #295  
Old 07-23-2015, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
bought a 6.5 from Baboosh. thanks !!

now I need a scope. any recommendation ? not too crazy please....something a $900 gun need. 600 yards max.
The general rule of thumb is that the scope should cost about as much as the rifle. With lower end rifles, you generally need to pay more than the rifle. There are lots of good starter scopes in the $800-$1,200 range these days. Get a mil/mil, variable power (5-25ish), FFP.
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  #296  
Old 07-23-2015, 1:34 PM
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The Burris XTR IIs with the SCR reticle are IMHO a great match to this rifle, both in capabilities and in cost. Frank Galli on Sniper's Hide used an earlier version of the XTR II with the G2B mildot reticle to test out the Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor and he has nothing but good things to say about it. I have a 4-20 with the SCR mil reticle and it is a great scope. Is the glass S&B quality? No, but it's plenty good enough for shooting paper or steel and the adjustments are solid and repeatable.
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  #297  
Old 07-23-2015, 2:15 PM
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Not to thread jack but o have one ordered in 6.5 and have been looking at the r
Trijicon 5x25 scope. Any comments on glass and quality?
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  #298  
Old 07-23-2015, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
We have the 6.5 models enroute to us. We should have the 308 models soon as well.
Let me know when you get the .308 in. please.
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  #299  
Old 07-23-2015, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
Not to thread jack but o have one ordered in 6.5 and have been looking at the r
Trijicon 5x25 scope. Any comments on glass and quality?
5x25 would indicate a 5x fixed power optic with a 25mm objective... I assume you might be referring to the 5-20x50 Trijicon Accupoint scope?

If so the TR23-2 is the only model I would consider getting because it has a mildot reticle.

If you compare it to other options in a similar price range the setup/feature set of the scope is pretty dated by todays standard. MRAD based reticle, MOA turrets, 40 MOA of elevation, SFP...

You can get a lot more scope for the same money from someone else... I would opt for matching MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA, and FFP. It would also be nice if it has more internal elevation adjustment available.

Trijicon makes a lot of optics that I like but ive never been too hot for their Accupoint scopes except for their 1-4x and 1-6x scopes.

Last edited by ExtremeX; 07-23-2015 at 4:45 PM..
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  #300  
Old 07-23-2015, 3:11 PM
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[QUOTE=[B]Jaytil;16655971]If you use vague terms like "better", it might need explaining. I understand MOA. Grammar was more the issue as it is above (no vs know).

It's always nice to come here and find a treasure trove of the grumpiest of grumpy old men condescending rather than teaching.

[/B]
When answering a question about which chambering to use the word Better is also the appropriate verbiage.
I am very astute with my use of the English diction my wife thinks I am actually a rather cunning linguist. The only grouchy people I see are the grammar police.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 07-23-2015 at 3:20 PM..
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  #301  
Old 07-23-2015, 3:40 PM
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Actually, it was in reference to the specific performance at 1K, so "flatter" or "less drop" would have been less vague. If you were just saying it was better in some overall sense, then I agree that "better" would have sufficed, but you weren't.

If you only see the negative in this thread in the grammar correction, I would suggest a trip to the optometrist.


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  #302  
Old 07-23-2015, 4:08 PM
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Actually if you understood MOA you wouldn't be having such a struggle with this thread.
You might read my earlier posts a second time as this is getting silly now.
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  #303  
Old 07-23-2015, 4:40 PM
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Do you mean post 257 which you edited from "know purpose" to "no purpose"? I thought so.


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  #304  
Old 07-23-2015, 5:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
If you rely on 0.1 click values, your zero can be off as much as 0.18" in either direction if your natural scope falls in between upon initial mounting or changing your load.
USO EREK knobs let you set the zero independent of the clicks so that your zero is NOT limited to just where the standard clicks happen to land.
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  #305  
Old 07-23-2015, 5:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
...people already in to precision style rifles probably aren't going to buy a 'turnkey' rifle.
This would be a great point for Ruger marketing to make: "Turnkey Precision Rifle, just add your favorite optics and go!"

Speaking of optics, you should break the mold and mount up some Magpul Iron Sights on it.




Nice embedded message btw.
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  #306  
Old 07-23-2015, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
USO EREK knobs let you set the zero independent of the clicks so that your zero is NOT limited to just where the standard clicks happen to land.
All the decent scopes let you get to exact zero, but they have somewhat different mechanisms. With cheap scopes, I suppose you could wiggle it onto spot until you get lucky.
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  #307  
Old 07-23-2015, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaytil View Post
Do you mean post 257 which you edited from "know purpose" to "no purpose"? I thought so.
I am a grammar nazi if I am writing professionally, but on internet forums, you can't always expect people to use correct writing as it isn't feasible to get your posts peer reviewed and edited. Especially nowadays with folks typing on phones or using voice dictation, the autocorrect and the homonym issues are prevalent as these generally aren't picked up by the spell check.

I'd not let a grammatical homonym error necessarily lead you to believe that a poster does not have credibility. Lynn is a good guy to learn from as he has very good information for accurate shooting. I'd not let a grammar issue get to you.
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Old 07-23-2015, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POLICESTATE View Post
This would be a great point for Ruger marketing to make: "Turnkey Precision Rifle, just add your favorite optics and go!"

Speaking of optics, you should break the mold and mount up some Magpul Iron Sights on it.




Nice embedded message btw.
I see Turnkey easily turned into Turkey rifle or TRP. For short. Marketing guys I am sure saw that one coming.
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Old 07-23-2015, 8:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytil View Post
Do you mean post 257 which you edited from "know purpose" to "no purpose"? I thought so.


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Actually no the posts here describing why the 243 is BETTER.
JMP explained it as did Randall but both of them shoot on a regular basis.

As you appear to be a new Shooter that doesn't understand MOA rather than jumping on your grammar police bandwagon you might try asking what you don't already know.
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  #310  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:26 PM
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I've heard that 6.5 creedmoor is better than the old but still popular 308. How much of that is true and if so/why not?
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  #311  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gun-Diapers View Post
I've heard that 6.5 creedmoor is better than the old but still popular 308. How much of that is true and if so/why not?
In comparable builds (roughly):
6.5CD is 2,825fps with a BC of 0.570
308 is 2,625fps with a BC of 0.496

Two hundred feet per second plus a higher BC. Put that into a ballistic calculator and see the difference. The advantage of the 308 is that it is a larger bullet, so it will hit harder at close distances. Plus, in this rifle, the 308 is a 20" barrel, so realistically, you'll get 2,500 fps and the Creedmoor is 24".

I have both (in identical rifles) and I actually shoot the 308 more since it's great for short to intermediate distances. Then, when I want better, I'll step down in size to a 6mm or up in size to a .338.
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Old 07-23-2015, 8:54 PM
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Gun-Diapers
In the earlier posts we were discussing ballistic superiority and most understood it while others struggled severely.
As the range is increased dispersion and wind become the two main detractors of accuracy.
The 308 at 1000 yards has around 44 MOA of drop or roughly 440 inches.
When you step up to the 6.5 creedmoor your bullet drop is 16 MOA less or 28 MOA which is around 280 inches.

The reason drop matters is the wind and dispersion have more time to act upon a bullet that is in flight longer.

The 243 has around 23 MOA of drop or 230 inches. That 5 MOA is the equivalent of adding 5 inches to the 6.5 Creedmoor barrel in order to duplicate its performance.

You can't buy hits but you can choose a firing system that gives you all the ballistic advantage possible.
The difference between the Creedmoor and the 243 would not make me lose any sleep but I wouldn't use the 308 past 600 yards unless the rules dictated its use
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  #313  
Old 07-23-2015, 8:56 PM
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What the ballistic coefficients do not tell you is how the projectile will handle as it slows and goes transonic and subsonic. The BC is simply a scalar proxy to estimate efficiency, when, in reality, you'd need a multidimensional array or parametric representations. For example, my 308 is still running supersonic at 1,000 using 168 SMKs, but the bullet doesn't handle well as the velocity slows down below 2,000fps. Thus, there are other issues to be aware of. My 308 is an old tangent bullet that has great accuracy to 300-400m, and that's really the sweet spot for the bullet.

Every gun has a different purpose, and it depends what you want to do.
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  #314  
Old 07-23-2015, 9:49 PM
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I am a grammar nazi if I am writing professionally, but on internet forums, you can't always expect people to use correct writing as it isn't feasible to get your posts peer reviewed and edited. Especially nowadays with folks typing on phones or using voice dictation, the autocorrect and the homonym issues are prevalent as these generally aren't picked up by the spell check.



I'd not let a grammatical homonym error necessarily lead you to believe that a poster does not have credibility. Lynn is a good guy to learn from as he has very good information for accurate shooting. I'd not let a grammar issue get to you.

I totally agree with you and I never questioned his credibility, nor do I now. Likewise, I would expect that he would not attack me (as he continues to do) or try to pigeonhole me as being a rookie because I asked (quite respectfully, I thought) for clarification on a statement that was lacking clarity.

Your explanatory and clear responses on the thread should serve as an example for those who seem to be unable to conduct themselves in a civil manner and "bring up" those who may not be at their level of experience in a particular subject matter area.

A sincere thanks to you, JMP.


Sent from my JayPad...like you care.
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  #315  
Old 07-24-2015, 8:43 AM
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Jaytil, don't worry, take the good with the bad.

There were some humorous parts to the posts you may have missed. He didn't get it the quotes quite right, but I found post #300 rather funny.

Personally, I suspect it is a friendly miscommunication.
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Old 07-24-2015, 8:58 AM
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I don't know LynnJR in person but I know him pretty well on this forum. I do know Jaytil in person.

Both are good principled guys who I imagine would like each other if at the range together. Jay works really hard and really selflessly for our club (in the same way that Jim O'Connell does for RR&G and the Grizzlies). Lynn has spent way more time than anyone not getting paid to do it helping new shooters, explaining cheap and efficient reloading practice and encouraging all the positives of a BR mindset without the complexities of actually having to shoot BR.

I'm pretty sure it was a miscommunication as JMP suspects.
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Old 07-24-2015, 9:25 AM
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Originally Posted by milotrain View Post
Lynn has spent way more time than anyone not getting paid to do it helping new shooters.
Indeed, I'd guess that he has AT LEAST 65 years of trigger time on the BR (probably a lot more), so he may tend to default his opinion of anyone to be a "rookie".
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  #318  
Old 07-24-2015, 10:12 AM
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----------------Lynn-----------------

-----------------All-------------------




LoL, jusssst trying to lighten the mood


On a side note, my weekend LR plans got wrecked because of this fire in Kyburz closing highway 50 down... Keeping my fingers crossed this doesn't become another King fire.
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Indeed, I'd guess that he has AT LEAST 65 years of trigger time on the BR (probably a lot more), so he may tend to default his opinion of anyone to be a "rookie".
I suppose then this would be an appropriate time to roll out the old quote:
"I've forgotten more than you, (or most people) know about this."
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Old 07-24-2015, 2:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Jaytil, don't worry, take the good with the bad.

There were some humorous parts to the posts you may have missed. He didn't get it the quotes quite right, but I found post #300 rather funny.

Personally, I suspect it is a friendly miscommunication.
Last sentence defines a large percentage of banter in spades... Not just this thread - but CGN and forums in general.

BTW, Im so curious - I have to go look up post #300 now
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