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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-19-2018, 8:59 AM
BroncoMustang BroncoMustang is offline
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Default What kind of distance 2 expect w/ .308 & 28 in barrel?

I am thinking of having a custom rifle built in the .308 caliber and possibly using a Bartlein 28 inch barrel with an 11.25 twist rate. I have some ammo that is Federal Gold Medal Berger in 185 grain and will also likely reload some 155 Lapua scenar with Lapua brass, Varget powder and 210M primers. What kind of distance do you think I could expect from this set-up?
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:00 AM
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I would mostly be doing bench rest or possibly prone, but not competition shooting. Forgot to include that earlier.

Last edited by BroncoMustang; 05-19-2018 at 9:13 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:21 AM
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What do you mean by "distance"?

If you know how to use the markings on your scope you can hit a steel plate out many hundreds of yards, but I'm not sure that's what you're after.
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:22 AM
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The 308 flies sonic until around 900 yards plus/minus. It does well during transition to subsonic so it can reach past that but you are near the limit at 1000 yards.
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Old 05-19-2018, 9:59 AM
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Iím still going 1300ish FPS at 1000 yards with 178 ELDs and a 26Ē Krieger barrel.

A 28Ē custom barrel and those 185s you should be easily shooting to 1200-1300 yards.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:27 AM
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As far as a 308 can shoot. I used to shoot my 20" Rem LTR to 1k with 175's.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:47 AM
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Don't you want a faster twist? I think my AR type has a 1 in 10.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:48 AM
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Held good grouping at 1000 yds with 26" barrel shooting 168g sierras using 24x scope. Depending on weather and terrain a varying cross wind is a big factor in the end results.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:51 AM
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FGMM with Berger's 185 is going at 2600 fps and I think they used a 24" barrel for that velocity. With a 28" barrel, you may get 2750. You have plenty of speed for 100 yard plinking

If you plan to use the 155 Lapua Scenar and to get the most out of that bullet, you need a 1:12 and a barrel length of 30" or 32". That bullet along with Sierra's 2156 or Berger's 155.5 were designed for Palma or Fullbore rifles.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
What do you mean by "distance"?

If you know how to use the markings on your scope you can hit a steel plate out many hundreds of yards, but I'm not sure that's what you're after.
I am hoping it might do 1,000 yards, but don't know yet as it hasn't been built.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
The 308 flies sonic until around 900 yards plus/minus. It does well during transition to subsonic so it can reach past that but you are near the limit at 1000 yards.
This was what I was hoping to hear/read. Thanks.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
Iím still going 1300ish FPS at 1000 yards with 178 ELDs and a 26Ē Krieger barrel.

A 28Ē custom barrel and those 185s you should be easily shooting to 1200-1300 yards.
NorCalFocus,
I hope that you are right; that would be really cool to be able to go out to that distance. Thanks for your feedback; I appreciate it.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG View Post
As far as a 308 can shoot. I used to shoot my 20" Rem LTR to 1k with 175's.
I am impressed. I wouldn't have thought that a 20 inch barrel in .308 would shoot out that far. This is encouraging to read. Thanks.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Don't you want a faster twist? I think my AR type has a 1 in 10.
Though you may be correct, I already bought the barrel & will be using it for a bolt action rifle I plan to have built when I have all of the pieces come in. Thanks for your feedback; I appreciate it. I might get a 1 to 10 for the next barrel.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by alpha_romeo_XV View Post
Held good grouping at 1000 yds with 26" barrel shooting 168g sierras using 24x scope. Depending on weather and terrain a varying cross wind is a big factor in the end results.
AlphaRomeoXV,
Thanks for the information; I appreciate it. I currently have a 4.5-27 scope, so weather, wind, terrain cooperating will see once I have it ready to shoot.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
FGMM with Berger's 185 is going at 2600 fps and I think they used a 24" barrel for that velocity. With a 28" barrel, you may get 2750. You have plenty of speed for 100 yard plinking

If you plan to use the 155 Lapua Scenar and to get the most out of that bullet, you need a 1:12 and a barrel length of 30" or 32". That bullet along with Sierra's 2156 or Berger's 155.5 were designed for Palma or Fullbore rifles.
OpenSightsOnly,
Thanks for the information. Yeah, I believe a lot of the .308 chambered bolt-action rifles frequently top out at 24 or 26 inches. I am hoping to be able to take it out to at least 1000 yards, but will start at 100 to get it sighted in (once assembled).
I think the barrel =blank I got is 31 inches long, so maybe going 30 inches would get more distance and velocity/speed. Thanks again.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMustang View Post
OpenSightsOnly,
Thanks for the information. Yeah, I believe a lot of the .308 chambered bolt-action rifles frequently top out at 24 or 26 inches. I am hoping to be able to take it out to at least 1000 yards, but will start at 100 to get it sighted in (once assembled).
I think the barrel =blank I got is 31 inches long, so maybe going 30 inches would get more distance and velocity/speed. Thanks again.
With 185 FGMM going at 2600, that will reach 1k.

Since you plan to have a 28" barrel length, you have the velocity to get to 1k.

Use JBM Ballistics to model.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
With 185 FGMM going at 2600, that will reach 1k.

Since you plan to have a 28" barrel length, you have the velocity to get to 1k.

Use JBM Ballistics to model.
Thanks for the referral to JBM Ballistics. I will check it out once my rifle is ready to go.
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  #19  
Old 05-19-2018, 1:59 PM
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If you're going for points 1k is good. If you like to hit gongs or anything, Ive shot out to 1300y with a 16" barrel.
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Old 05-19-2018, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mif_slim View Post
If you're going for points 1k is good. If you like to hit gongs or anything, Ive shot out to 1300y with a 16" barrel.
Wow; impressive being able to shot out to 1,300 yards with a 16-inch barrel. One range I've been told about is in Piru, CA and it has a large gong or something like that to shoot at (or so I'm told); not been there yet.
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  #21  
Old 05-19-2018, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BroncoMustang View Post
Though you may be correct, I already bought the barrel ...
OK then, what barrel did you buy and what weight, and twist is it.
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Old 05-19-2018, 5:17 PM
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If you bought a 31 inch blank use all 30 inches of it not just 28. Ahnother8 who posts here has as much 308 experience as you could ever want so look for his posts.
We had a shooter who posts as Apollo here use the 185 Juggernaut bullets to connect with a 37 inch gong at 2054 yards with a pile of witnesses at one of our matches.
Practically speaking I would say with conventional lead jacketed bullets 1200 yards is about it and with the lathe turned solid like the Warner Flatline bullets you can safely add another 400-500 yards.
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  #23  
Old 05-19-2018, 5:22 PM
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I got a Bartlein 11.25 twist barrel for .308 caliber from Southern Precision Rifles (also known as bugholes.com). I am not sure of the weight, but maybe the website will indicate it. I got the heavy barrel; but it may be the 29 inch barrel.
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Old 05-19-2018, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
If you bought a 31 inch blank use all 30 inches of it not just 28. Ahnother8 who posts here has as much 308 experience as you could ever want so look for his posts.
We had a shooter who posts as Apollo here use the 185 Juggernaut bullets to connect with a 37 inch gong at 2054 yards with a pile of witnesses at one of our matches.
Practically speaking I would say with conventional lead jacketed bullets 1200 yards is about it and with the lathe turned solid like the Warner Flatline bullets you can safely add another 400-500 yards.
I checked their website; I think I got the 29" barrel (not 31"). Thu might use the full 28 inches available. Thanks for the information; I appreciate it.
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Old 05-19-2018, 7:47 PM
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Default What kind of distance 2 expect w/ .308 & 28 in barrel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMustang View Post
I am impressed. I wouldn't have thought that a 20 inch barrel in .308 would shoot out that far. This is encouraging to read. Thanks.


Out of my ruger predator I shoot a 168smk with 41.5 gr imr4895 using LC brass and chronoíd 2631 with a sd of 22. It shoots under 1Ē at 100. Itís still (just) supersonic at 1000 as per my ballistic calculator app. And thatís an 18Ē barrel. So yeah, a 20Ē should be fine to 1k. Granted that with a 100yd zero thatís 41moa drop, but itís entirely doable and youíre really not disadvantaged at 1000 with a 308 in 20Ē barrel. And 41.5 isnít even close to a max load.

Now, add 4-6Ē on the barrel and another 200fps and you get another 100-150yds supersonic. So itís probably accurate to say that 1000 is probably the max effective range of the 308, but itís actually kinda nice to think that a shorter barrel rifle can give you 1000yd range. Lugging around a big rifle all day isnít a lot of fun.

The rifle is certainly capable of consistent 1000yd hits. Iím probably not though.
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Old 05-19-2018, 8:13 PM
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Out of my ruger predator I shoot a 168smk with 41.5 gr imr4895 using LC brass and chronoíd 2631 with a sd of 22. It shoots under 1Ē at 100. Itís still (just) supersonic at 1000 as per my ballistic calculator app. And thatís an 18Ē barrel. So yeah, a 20Ē should be fine to 1k. Granted that with a 100yd zero thatís 41moa drop, but itís entirely doable and youíre really not disadvantaged at 1000 with a 308 in 20Ē barrel. And 41.5 isnít even close to a max load.

Now, add 4-6Ē on the barrel and another 200fps and you get another 100-150yds supersonic. So itís probably accurate to say that 1000 is probably the max effective range of the 308, but itís actually kinda nice to think that a shorter barrel rifle can give you 1000yd range. Lugging around a big rifle all day isnít a lot of fun.

The rifle is certainly capable of consistent 1000yd hits. Iím probably not though.
Thanks for sharing the information; I appreciate it.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMustang View Post
I got a Bartlein 11.25 twist barrel for .308 caliber from Southern Precision Rifles (also known as bugholes.com). I am not sure of the weight, but maybe the website will indicate it. I got the heavy barrel; but it may be the 29 inch barrel.
I think that is for 172/175 grain bullets although it can probably shoot bullets a little heavier than that. The 168 is considered a 600 yard round.
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Old 05-20-2018, 3:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMustang View Post
I am impressed. I wouldn't have thought that a 20 inch barrel in .308 would shoot out that far. This is encouraging to read. Thanks.
Think fps, not barrel length. I was running the 175 at 2650, so plenty to make it to 1K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
Out of my ruger predator I shoot a 168smk with 41.5 gr imr4895 using LC brass and chronoíd 2631 with a sd of 22. It shoots under 1Ē at 100. Itís still (just) supersonic at 1000 as per my ballistic calculator app. And thatís an 18Ē barrel. So yeah, a 20Ē should be fine to 1k. Granted that with a 100yd zero thatís 41moa drop, but itís entirely doable and youíre really not disadvantaged at 1000 with a 308 in 20Ē barrel. And 41.5 isnít even close to a max load.

Now, add 4-6Ē on the barrel and another 200fps and you get another 100-150yds supersonic. So itís probably accurate to say that 1000 is probably the max effective range of the 308, but itís actually kinda nice to think that a shorter barrel rifle can give you 1000yd range. Lugging around a big rifle all day isnít a lot of fun.

The rifle is certainly capable of consistent 1000yd hits. Iím probably not though.
I only shot it in one match and can say, it was a dream to carry/maneuver compared to my dedicated match rig.
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Old 05-20-2018, 4:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
I think that is for 172/175 grain bullets although it can probably shoot bullets a little heavier than that. The 168 is considered a 600 yard round.


Iíve read reports that the new 168 ELDs will make it to 1000. But I agree with you that for 1000 yard shooting the 175+ weights are generally better.
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Old 05-21-2018, 8:52 AM
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According to Bergers Stability Calculator, you're likely to need a bit more twist for the 185s. You need to be around 3000 fps to get it to stabilize (which sounds pretty hot for the weight.)

If you go factory ammo, try the 175 FGMM.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divingin View Post
According to Bergers Stability Calculator, you're likely to need a bit more twist for the 185s. You need to be around 3000 fps to get it to stabilize (which sounds pretty hot for the weight.)

If you go factory ammo, try the 175 FGMM.

wut?

185 FGMM is good for 1:11 since its using 185 Juggernaut.

Berger's 185 hybrid bullet is designed for 1:10
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Old 05-21-2018, 1:18 PM
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Thank you to all those above who replied; I appreciate it and enjoy reading and learning from others' experiences.
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Old 05-22-2018, 7:11 AM
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Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
wut?

185 FGMM is good for 1:11 since its using 185 Juggernaut.

Berger's 185 hybrid bullet is designed for 1:10
Go to Bergers site and punch in the numbers.

Although I may have used an 11.75 twist rate instead of 11.25...
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Old 05-22-2018, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by divingin View Post
Go to Bergers site and punch in the numbers.

Although I may have used an 11.75 twist rate instead of 11.25...
Thanks for the information; I will check it out. I know that Berger is well respected and Brian Litz (last name spelled right?) is someone I enjoy learning from.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoMustang View Post
I am impressed. I wouldn't have thought that a 20 inch barrel in .308 would shoot out that far. This is encouraging to read. Thanks.
I shot with a guy with a DTA with a 16" 308 win barrel and he hit a torso-sized target at 14xx yards on his first shot and went 3 for 3. He was shooting DTA ammo with 175smk. Impressive.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DRM6000 View Post
I shot with a guy with a DTA with a 16" 308 win barrel and he hit a torso-sized target at 14xx yards on his first shot and went 3 for 3. He was shooting DTA ammo with 175smk. Impressive.
Now this is how I expected these rifles to perform (very accurately). Thanks for passing along the information; I appreciate it.
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Old 05-22-2018, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divingin View Post
Go to Bergers site and punch in the numbers.

Although I may have used an 11.75 twist rate instead of 11.25...

Meh, BTDT, used to use Berger and the JBM Ballistics website for models.

However, at the end of the day, one thing I learned, its the indian not the arrow.

Carrying out a consistent shot based on prevailing conditions - that's one thing the website aint gonna help me or anybody
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Old 05-22-2018, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
The 308 flies sonic until around 900 yards plus/minus. It does well during transition to subsonic so it can reach past that but you are near the limit at 1000 yards.
Russ,

Transitioning is a bit of a misnomer if you look at 1.2M- to .8M arguably 1/10 either side, then look at the associated distances you just might be a bit surprised. Shooting into transonic is a bit like visiting the hotel california.

In my opinion the early 168smk design did a lot of perceptional damage to people understanding 1.2/.8. with short barrels that hit 1.2 very early (meters) and in some slower twists, after sometimes trans, it fell off the shelf. Turns out, that is some of the slower instances, it was sideways shortly after M1. But the issues were a less than perfect design, paired with short barrels or slow speeds and people not understanding 1340ish FPS (DA dependent) meant something and just how short the associated range/distance is/was.

Edited to add: It is cumulative, it happens much sooner than people think 20%+ and takes a bit of time with a good deign to start to impact CEP, drop is the first to go south as wobble/yaw slows and reduces BC. Bullets do NOT fall out of the sky at the SB crossing, but do reach a point were the CEP out strips the target. Many long time ELR guys call the steep departure fro the predicted point mass solvers as "falling off the shelf" ect.. Universally, with good modern projectiles this seems to happen over 27-ish mils. So crazy bases, prisms, etc, does not outstrip small target size. More and more ELR guys will start to see this regardless of caliber.. It is the self-defined reasonable target size and CEP (limited round count) along with the shelf for each caliber that needs to be determined. Then tolerable recoil in a reasonably portable system that kinda determines the max distances. Hope that makes sense.

Lastly, when people talk about x caliber going some incredible distance like the team from Hill Country etc.. It is super important to remember what CEP means. In other words, if it rains enough, we all get wet. But that does not mean that the one or two drops that hit us was targeted.

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Old 05-22-2018, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
Russ,

Transitioning is a bit of a misnomer if you look at 1.2M- to .8M arguably 1/10 either side, then look at the associated distances you just might be a bit surprised. Shooting into transonic is a bit like visiting the hotel california.

In my opinion the early 168smk design did a lot of perceptional damage to people understanding 1.2/.8. with short barrels that hit 1.2 very early (meters) and in some slower twists, after sometimes trans, it fell off the shelf. Turns out, that is some of the slower instances, it was sideways shortly after M1. But the issues were a less than perfect design, paired with short barrels or slow speeds and people not understanding 1340ish FPS (DA dependent) meant something and just how short the associated range/distance is/was.

Edited to add: It is cumulative, it happens much sooner than people think 20%+ and takes a bit of time with a good deign to start to impact CEP, drop is the first to go south as wobble/yaw slows and reduces BC. Bullets do NOT fall out of the sky at the SB crossing, but do reach a point were the CEP out strips the target. Many long time ELR guys call the steep departure fro the predicted point mass solvers as "falling off the shelf" ect.. Universally, with good modern projectiles this seems to happen over 27-ish mils. So crazy bases, prisms, etc, does not outstrip small target size. More and more ELR guys will start to see this regardless of caliber.. It is the self-defined reasonable target size and CEP (limited round count) along with the shelf for each caliber that needs to be determined. Then tolerable recoil in a reasonably portable system that kinda determines the max distances. Hope that makes sense.

Lastly, when people talk about x caliber going some incredible distance like the team from Hill Country etc.. It is super important to remember what CEP means. In other words, if it rains enough, we all get wet. But that does not mean that the one or two drops that hit us was targeted.

Too much wine... just down loading
Thanks for the information; I appreciate it.
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  #40  
Old 06-10-2018, 10:17 PM
BroncoMustang BroncoMustang is offline
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Originally Posted by OpenSightsOnly View Post
Meh, BTDT, used to use Berger and the JBM Ballistics website for models.

However, at the end of the day, one thing I learned, its the indian not the arrow.

Carrying out a consistent shot based on prevailing conditions - that's one thing the website aint gonna help me or anybody
Thanks; I agree, that a lot depends on the shooter.
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