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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #1  
Old 10-18-2020, 10:25 AM
sirdutch sirdutch is offline
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Default Question Law Enforcement Awareness of California Gun Laws

First off, thanks to all of you in law enforcement for your service to our communities.

How confident are you that you and your fellow officers are reasonably well versed in California's gun laws when dealing with what is lawful and not lawful when dealing with so-called "assault weapons" versus California legal AR or AK varients or other complexities of California gun law. Are you as baffled like many of us are?

Thanks to forums like this, we can ask questions to stay informed. However, I'm asking this to better understand how paranoid I should be when traveling with firearms to an shooting competition. Obviously, securely securing weapons and ammo is common sense along with keeping a low profile are important.

Nowadays, I'm thinking that it is better NOT to have NRA stickers on one's vehicle or other indications of support for the 2nd Amendment indicators. That seems to be the sad reality these days.

Once again, thanks to you guys and gals in Law enforcement.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:57 AM
L-2 L-2 is offline
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Calguns played a large part of informing me when I was working. Also, there were/are more intensive training classes in firearms laws which occasionally are made available.

There are also a few publications which an LEO might carry as reference, although computers, iPads, and smart phones are also available.

Unfortunately, California's Penal Code is overly complex, particularly in the firearms and weapons area. It's made worse with some cities passing their own laws regarding ammunition and magazine capacity limits.

From what-I-can-tell, these city-level firearms-laws are seldom enforced/charged which likely results in the laws not getting challenged for legality. I certainly don't want to be a test case.

I recall the cities Sunnyvale, San Francisco, Oakland, and Los Angeles had their own specific bans on magazines with capacities over ten rounds and San Francisco with some type of ban on certain brands of hollow-point ammo (might be restricted to handgun only, but unsure). I don't know about other cities.

I've found it difficult to find the actual text of the city-level laws on the internet. I don't know if Calguns has a referenced sticky thread for the city-level laws. I'll take a look after posting this.
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  #3  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:23 AM
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City level laws are usually buried on the local web site.

San Francisco - https://sfgov.org/services/sf-municipal-codes

Los Angeles City - https://www.lacity.org/government/po...ules-and-codes

Los Angeles County - http://lacounty-ca.elaws.us/code/coor

Generically, see https://www.municode.com/library/ca, http://www.qcode.us/codes.htm, http://www.amlegal.com/codes/ca/
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Old 10-18-2020, 8:07 PM
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Lately I have fielded several questions from less experienced officers. Very often, my answer is "I have no idea...". I work with several pro 2a guys; the rest are indifferent. I generally encourage shifting the focus to whether or not the citizen is a good guy or a bad guy. If it's a bad guy, I'm sure we could find something to charge. If it's a good guy, common sense general education is probably the best answer.

I'm sure that anyone who reads these forums would not be surprised to hear that, due to the complexity and vagueness of california laws, not all cops have a solid understanding of the laws.

I would encourage knowledgeable and experienced gun owners to educate newer owners about basic safety practices. I would also include the point of being nice to the cops.

For example: don't leave your gun in a duffel bag on the front seat of your car that you left running in the driveway... I (the cop) may not care about the minutiae of the storage and transport laws, but that's a dumb move and now that a tweeker took your stuff we have a bigger problem... Also, shouting "you can't do that, I know my rights!" may motivate the officer to examine the minutiae a bit closer.
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2020, 10:39 PM
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First off, thank you, sir.

Second, I would direct you to CA Penal Code 4:

Quote:
The rule of the common law, that penal statutes are to be strictly construed, has no application to this Code. All its provisions are to be construed according to the fair import of their terms, with a view to effect its objects and to promote justice.
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Old 10-19-2020, 7:30 AM
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Something said to the class when I was in supervisor school years ago has always stuck with me, "I may not know the law exactly, but I do know where to find it, and how to apply it fairly". I tried to run my career by those words, (especially the fair part) up to the day I was told it was over due to the damage in my knee.

Yes there were things I and I would hope most cops would have a zero tolerance stand on, but confusing gun laws as applied to most of the people I encountered day to day, probably not so much. That's not saying if you're doing something incredibly stupid you're not going to suffer the consequences.
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:01 AM
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So hopefully every LE agency has some sort of firearms group that runs their qualifications and if patrol officers in the street find something and need assistance with dangerous weapons laws they have a quick way to get resources on board for fast and accurate application of those laws.
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:05 AM
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Some are clueless same as some ffl employees
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:05 AM
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I cannot recommend self education and this book as a must: https://www.calgunlawsbook.com/
You do need to by a new edition when laws are added over the years.
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Old 10-19-2020, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911su16b870 View Post
So hopefully every LE agency has some sort of firearms group that runs their qualifications and if patrol officers in the street find something and need assistance with dangerous weapons laws they have a quick way to get resources on board for fast and accurate application of those laws.
Yeah right. A lot cops only know about the gun they carry and not all even know about that one.

When I was working I had a supervisor detective try to jack up some poor guy at a gun show with AK pistols before they were a normal thing thinking they were SBR’s. Should have seen the look of relief on that guys face when I had to educate that detective. If I hadn't been working that day I’m afraid that guy would have taken a ride or lost his pistols that day. To the detectives credit he did call me for help and not jump in with both feet.

Like others I tried to educate the average Joe. If you were a dirtbag I gave no quarter and they took the ride.
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  #11  
Old 10-19-2020, 6:44 PM
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I'm glad you guys and gals are out there. Once again, thank you for your answers and for your service to our communities.
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Old 10-19-2020, 7:02 PM
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The various versions of the Calguns flowchart has been passed around at my unit over the years, including in the training cheater that someone made. I don’t know whether or not each individual person who has got it took the time to go over it, but at least the information is out there.
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Old 10-19-2020, 7:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P5Ret View Post
Something said to the class when I was in supervisor school years ago has always stuck with me, "I may not know the law exactly, but I do know where to find it, and how to apply it fairly". I tried to run my career by those words, (especially the fair part) up to the day I was told it was over due to the damage in my knee.

Yes there were things I and I would hope most cops would have a zero tolerance stand on, but confusing gun laws as applied to most of the people I encountered day to day, probably not so much. That's not saying if you're doing something incredibly stupid you're not going to suffer the consequences.
^^^THIS^^^

Plus it's becoming very common now for LEO's to have access to a ton of legal resource material in the field.

I'd know the elements of the offenses that I commonly made arrests for, but back when I was was a field deputy, there wasn't such great access. I carried the full Penal Code and Vehicle Code books in my war bag, and often had to refer to them.

As a watch commander, I'd do the same before giving booking approvals. One day I had a field crew bring in a lady who left her loaded shotgun behind the living room sofa. Her four year old found it and blew his hand off. They wanted to book her for California's negligent storage statute. It sounded good to me, but I made a point of checking the elements, it turned out that she couldn't be booked on the charge until seven days had passed. I gave approval to a number of other booking charges, and then seven days later, we additionally charged the criminal storage section.

In shift briefings, I'd often try to stir up discussion on legal points, mostly as a way of honing the skills of the deputies on my shift. One day, I threw down a photo of a Tripod Mounted Browning M2 and asked what action(s) could be taken if they encountered that weapon in the field. (I'd always ask what "could" be done rather that what "should" be done to emphasize the difference, then the discussion would move to what "should" be done) I was kinda surprised that most of the deps held the opinion that the possessor of the weapon could be arrested for violating California's .50 BMG statute. But that was cool, we discussed the statute, and the corresponding definition of "Rifle" and then they went into field having better knowledge (but no one ever did stray across an M2 while I was working there).
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Old 10-20-2020, 2:57 AM
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Im fairly well versed, thanks largely to being a part of the calguns commuity for better part of 15 years. Some of the officers are gun guys, some arent. I get a fair number of questions when somethingcomes up. As P5Ret put it ive got a petty good idea of what legal and isnt, but the more important thing is I know how to figure out the answer.
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Old 12-30-2020, 5:32 PM
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I work with many very knowledgeable and pro 2a LEO'S. I work with many other who are more indifferent and don't care much about the specifics of gun laws, however, they aren't going to risk their career by making a bad arrest or false charge for some gun law minutia. They are typically going to error on the side of caution, meaning they aren't going to violate a person on a law they aren't certain about. They are always going to call for assistance from someone who is 2a proactive and knows the laws. I think the risk of a law abiding person getting jammed for lawful possession and transport is incredibly rare. I've never seen it or heard of it happening.

On the other side of the coin however, if someone is a piece of trash, dysfunctional in every other aspect of their life, breaking other laws, and generally drawing negative law enforcement attention because of their terrible attitude or behavior, then they will get extra attention, and that may include trying to find a violation related to their firearms possession or transport, but i assure you that extra effort will not have anything to do with the firearm possession itself.

Its really easy to be a criminal and get away with it. Pay your registration, have a valid license and insurance. Don't speed or drive like an idiot, don't be under the influence, and keep your attitude in check. Outside of traffic laws, which really is the primary proactive tool LEO use, the only other way that you are statistically likely to have an LE interaction, is if someone else calls the police requesting help dealing with you (assault, theft, threatening). I know it seems silly, but this discussion has been appearing on gun and LE forums for decades but I've never seen a basis for it.

How do I make sure I'm not violated for lawful 2a ownership or transport?

Don't hurt or threaten people and they won't call the cops on you. Don't be the most agregious traffic violator on the roadway at any given time, and if you are a traffic violator don't enlargen the focus with more bad behavior.

Cops are very unconcerned with general gun laws, regardless of whether they know everything or nothing about them.

They are much more focused on the other mentioned concerns.

Last edited by 2nab; 12-30-2020 at 5:37 PM..
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  #16  
Old 12-30-2020, 5:52 PM
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I worked at the local PD back in 1969. They brought in a Thompson. There was a big debate if it was full auto. I held the trigger back and racked the bolt. Hammer fell each time. I said full auto. They said we'll call the feds 18 year old evidence clerk/cadet can't be that smart. Feds came held the trigger down and racked the bolt declared it full auto. The PD kept the Thompson it was fun to shoot.
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