Alleged new info on Fast and Furious

[smogcity]

I ran across this thead from reddit and, if true, looks serious

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/..._forged_their/

[theLBC]

i hope holder ends up in prison.

[warbird]

Far worse will be coming out both in America and in California if this issue gets any worse. the government has broken laws with impunity and will continue to do so in their desperate effort to retain control and refute all rights given to citizens by the bill of rights and the Constitution. our forefathers shed blood to make these rights a reality and can we do any less? A piece of paper and a judge is not going to enforce your rights when an armed storm trooper (called a cop or a national guardsman) points a gun at you and fires while you stand there unarmed. when will we learn we have no rights that we are not willing to kill for if the enemy pushes it to that level. But to do so one has to be armed and willing to fight to give our children what we have or had. and our division in addition to our cowardly brothers and sisters are telling every crackpot with a grudge against us they can come to our shores and kill us because we will not stand up for ourselves. Is this legacy what we are giving our children?

[Solidsnake87]

The Statute of Limitations has expired for any wrongdoing by govt officials. No matter what comes to light, all that can happen to the perpetrators is brief media shaming. It's a situation that sucks all around.

All we can do is look at the plus side. Operation Fast and Furious failed so spectacularly that it could not be used to attack the 2nd amendment. Plus, the issue with violent illegals supports the causes of the current president.

[Jimi Jah]

The death of BP Agent Brian Terry has no statute of limitations.

Neither do the 200+ Mexican citizens killed by Holder/Obama's scheme.

[aklon]

In a better world than ours Eric Holder would be handed over to Mexico for a good dose of justice.

[warbird]

The Declaration of Independence is a non-binding document that guided our country and a favorite line from it is

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--"

Have we reached this point yet? Personally i think Jerry Brown has met the level despotism required and remember not every colonist was on our side in the 1770's. And in today's world we are facing the same situation. It is up to Californians who consider themselves Americans to reverse this downward spiral towards despotism under the present form of government and governor Brown and this legislature.

[Jimi Jah]

Excremento is far more oppressive than King George was. Most here are like frogs in the slowly boiling pot of water, they haven't noticed.

[rootuser]

Originally Posted by Jimi Jah

Excremento is far more oppressive than King George was. Most here are like frogs in the slowly boiling pot of water, they haven't noticed.

LOL good one.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by Jimi Jah

The death of BP Agent Brian Terry has no statute of limitations.

Neither do the 200+ Mexican citizens killed by Holder/Obama's scheme.

"Deaths" are not crimes. Any crime committed in associated with the death of Agent Terry is governed both by the statute of limitations, and by the elements of any such crime. The crime of murder is not limited by the statute of limitations, but to hold the former Attorney General accountable for the crime of murder, you must show that he intended to cause the death of Agent Terry, and that he did so with malice. The facts of "Fast and Furious " don't support that conclusion. Being a lousy Attorney General doesn't satisfy the elements of murder.

[Solidsnake87]

Originally Posted by RickD427

"Deaths" are not crimes. Any crime committed in associated with the death of Agent Terry is governed both by the statute of limitations, and by the elements of any such crime. The crime of murder is not limited by the statute of limitations, but to hold the former Attorney General accountable for the crime of murder, you must show that he intended to cause the death of Agent Terry, and that he did so with malice. The facts of "Fast and Furious " don't support that conclusion. Being a lousy Attorney General doesn't satisfy the elements of murder.

Thanks for stating this and sparing me the effort to do so. It relieves me greatly that others can think objectively, even if it's rare.

On that note, all that needs to happen is for the cover up to occur for about 6 yrs. Then, nothing happens regardless of the details that emerge. Same goes for Hillary's emails.

[Ugly Hombre]

In a just world Obama and Holder would be tried for this- ASAP

And also all of their minions and henchmen.

Typical Prog/Commie New Democrat hypocrisy and lies, disregard for the law and endangerment of innocent civilians Both American and Mexican.

Leading up to the murder of many- perhaps hundreds.

Disgusting and vile up to the 9th power.

Never thought I would see such a thing in our Republic, and whats worse- they got away scott free- the enabler New Democrat Bolshevik fake news liar sumvitchs spiked the stories about it and covered up the carnage they unleashed. Still doing it.

I realize now though, that there is not much chance they will ever be held to account for it.

That's the America of today.. damn sad to say.

[ja308]

Thank you OP for posting this. It is important we get the facts concerning the lengths democrats will go to to facilitate international law.

I too feel bad Brian Terrys murder and the many others will not result in any prosecutions or prison time.

The only outcome is that many of us know and hopefully our friends in media will keep this story alive.

Fast and Furious is just one sliver of Obamas legacy. I will think of it whenever this loudmouthed, blowhard is interviewed or his blather is related by an adoring swamp media !

One thing certain his subservient compliant, media pals really get off thinking Obama, holder and company skated on this murderous program!
I bet they are even more pleased with fast and furious than his fixing the election via IRS !

[MachineGuntongue]

Mike Detty's interview.






Talks about recording transactions about 12:00 in.


Fast and Furious Story Links:

https://sharylattkisson.com/2016/06/...s-story-links/

[big red]

we cannot undo the past but we can make sure we do not repeat the same crimes or allow new deaths in the future. Lousy politicians begin with greedy people seeking power over you and taking your wealth and then jaded media with an agenda pushing the ones who will provide the media with influence and wealth when the media twists the facts of a case. How long would holder have lasted in office if the truth had been told from the start? we cannot undo the past but we can prevent the same in the future.

[ROMEOHOTEL]

Originally Posted by warbird

The Declaration of Independence is a non-binding document that guided our country and a favorite line from it is

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--"

Have we reached this point yet? Personally i think Jerry Brown has met the level despotism required and remember not every colonist was on our side in the 1770's. And in today's world we are facing the same situation. It is up to Californians who consider themselves Americans to reverse this downward spiral towards despotism under the present form of government and governor Brown and this legislature.

As sort of a preamble to your favorite quote is, "...all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.".

Have we reached that point? No. Why not? Because lacking a thirst for liberty the people willfully subject themselves to an even longer train of abuses and usurpations.

It does not help that at every level of government are the people being bribed with their own money into a stupor as they receive the 'benevolence' of government.

[ja308]

Originally Posted by big red

we cannot undo the past but we can make sure we do not repeat the same crimes or allow new deaths in the future. Lousy politicians begin with greedy people seeking power over you and taking your wealth and then jaded media with an agenda pushing the ones who will provide the media with influence and wealth when the media twists the facts of a case. How long would holder have lasted in office if the truth had been told from the start? we cannot undo the past but we can prevent the same in the future.

Yes and I for one am anxiously awaiting President Trump fake news media trophy awards.

It all starts with enough people shutting down swamp info.

[Drivedabizness]

Originally Posted by RickD427

"Deaths" are not crimes. Any crime committed in associated with the death of Agent Terry is governed both by the statute of limitations, and by the elements of any such crime. The crime of murder is not limited by the statute of limitations, but to hold the former Attorney General accountable for the crime of murder, you must show that he intended to cause the death of Agent Terry, and that he did so with malice. The facts of "Fast and Furious " don't support that conclusion. Being a lousy Attorney General doesn't satisfy the elements of murder.

What's the SOL on manslaughter? They FORCED FFL's to sell rifles they KNEW were going to used in crimes. They DID NOT notify the Mexicans. That action, resulting in Mexicans being killed by essentially a terror/rebel force inside Mexico could be considered acts of war and undoubtedly violations of international law. The project required coordination. What is the SOL for criminal conspiracy?

[rplaw]

Originally Posted by ROMEOHOTEL

As sort of a preamble to your favorite quote is, "...all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.".

Have we reached that point? No. Why not? Because lacking a thirst for liberty the people willfully subject themselves to an even longer train of abuses and usurpations.

It does not help that at every level of government are the people being bribed with their own money into a stupor as they receive the 'benevolence' of government.

This is not the reason.

The reason is that currently, as was long ago, those being affected by the laws are individuals. Eventually, the laws will begin to affect society at large as the Gov begins to use it's powers to trample everyone, not just segments of the populace. When that happens, the courts will do more than let them, they will encourage them by refusing to hear the complaints against Gov abuses. The 9th is already solidly on that track as was shown in Peruta and Silvester.

Today, like in our previous history, the talk is about outlawing guns. The average citizen says; "sure, go ahead. Only gun owners have to worry. right?" But afterward come the inevitable storm troopers who kick down any door they please in their "search for hidden guns" and seize anything or anyone they desire for any reason. It is only when we reach that level of despotism that we have the "right" to overthrow the tyrant government because it no longer represents the people or obeys the limitations we memorialized in the Constitution which created it.

We are not there yet. Many more people will have to be imprisoned (or die) before we get there. But, don't worry; unless SCOTUS actually grows a pair, AND SOON, we will get there. Because the one thing Jerry and his ilk don't understand is that they can outlaw guns IN California all they want. What they can't do is outlaw the guns that will mass on the border ready to be handed over for use on the day they're needed. Because most of the people in other states understand that "how California goes, so goes the nation" and THEY aren't going to let California take away their freedoms without a fight.

[hermosabeach]

Is there a statute of limitations on accessory to murder?

[Battosai1]

Originally Posted by Ugly Hombre

In a just world Obama and Holder would be tried for this- ASAP

And also all of their minions and henchmen.

Typical Prog/Commie New Democrat hypocrisy and lies, disregard for the law and endangerment of innocent civilians Both American and Mexican.

Leading up to the murder of many- perhaps hundreds.

Disgusting and vile up to the 9th power.

Never thought I would see such a thing in our Republic, and whats worse- they got away scott free- the enabler New Democrat Bolshevik fake news liar sumvitchs spiked the stories about it and covered up the carnage they unleashed. Still doing it.

I realize now though, that there is not much chance they will ever be held to account for it.

That's the America of today.. damn sad to say.

130 grains of lead had no ' statute of limitations.'

[rplaw]

Originally Posted by hermosabeach

Is there a statute of limitations on accessory to murder?

It wasn't "murder". At best it was conspiracy to violate the laws of the United States. Unfortunately, not even that will fly because Holder and Co were all Gov officials acting under the aegis of their official duties. They are immune even if it turns out something illegal occurred because THEY didn't do anything THEMSELVES.

F&F, like Hillary's emails will go nowhere. We'd be better off dropping the whole thing.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by Drivedabizness

What's the SOL on manslaughter? They FORCED FFL's to sell rifles they KNEW were going to used in crimes. They DID NOT notify the Mexicans. That action, resulting in Mexicans being killed by essentially a terror/rebel force inside Mexico could be considered acts of war and undoubtedly violations of international law. The project required coordination. What is the SOL for criminal conspiracy?

The statute of limitations for both federal manslaughter and for criminal conspiracy is 5 years (it can go to ten for conspiracy involving financial crimes). Please refer to 18 USC 3281.

The elements of murder simply are not present here. And you can't make them up just because you're pissed off at the former Attorney General.

The federal crime of manslaughter is similar to California's statute in that it contains a "Misdemeanor-Manslaughter" rule. The idea is that if you perform a illegal act that produces a death, then that death can be charged as a manslaughter. You can make a case that the illegal acts facilitated the death of Agent Terry, but the defense argument is going to be that those acts didn't directly cause the death. We can all hold our own opinions on that. But the only opinions that matter are those the Grand Jury returning an indictment and if one is returned, then the trial jury hearing the case. But it doesn't matter now. The SOL has already run out.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by hermosabeach

Is there a statute of limitations on accessory to murder?

Best check your understanding of federal law.

There is no such thing as an "accessory to murder." Methinks you may have watched too many Perry Mason shows.

The federal statutes only recognize "Principals" (refer to 18 USC 2) and "accessories after the fact" (refer to 18 USC 3). With regard to a federal charge of murder, neither is even remotely applicable here.

[russ69]

Originally Posted by RickD427

The statute of limitations for both federal manslaughter and for criminal conspiracy is 5 years (it can go to ten for conspiracy involving financial crimes). Please refer to 18 USC 3281...

These government organizations have been playing out the clock by withholding evidence and stonewalling at every opportunity. They have to be liable for at least an obstruction of justice charge. If they withhold facts to run out the clock, that charge has to be from when the new evidence came to light and not from the time they started to obfuscate the legal process.

[RickD427]

Originally Posted by russ69

These government organizations have been playing out the clock by withholding evidence and stonewalling at every opportunity. They have to be liable for at least an obstruction of justice charge. If they withhold facts to run out the clock, that charge has to be from when the new evidence came to light and not from the time they started to obfuscate the legal process.

Russ,

You have a very good point, and your posting illustrates the classic "Rat in charge of the cheese" problem with federal government agencies. The federal government performs some oversight functions to ensure proper conduct by state law enforcement officials, but there is no regular oversight of federal LE agencies. Congress does perform some "Check and Balance" functions, but has limited access to information to perform those functions. The judiciary also has a constitutional "check and balance" power, but must be presented with a case in order to exercise any power.

You're also right that the "Obstruction of Justice" is the most likely form of malfeasance to hang on the Attorney General, but when you look at the U.S. Code, there are twenty different ways that one can "Obstruct Justice." The one most applicable is for the violator to prevent the communication of information to a criminal investigator. But that's not where the Attorney General 's wrongful conduct really took place. He owns the criminal investigators. His wrongful acts were in not forwarding information from the criminal investigators to prosecuting attorneys. And that form of misconduct is not proscribed in the code.

It's not all hopeless. Congress can pursue remedies through the system of "checks and balances." A few years ago, Attorney General John Mitchell was convicted of Obstruction of Justice and served 19 months in federal prison.

[ja308]

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

The Statute of Limitations has expired for any wrongdoing by govt officials. No matter what comes to light, all that can happen to the perpetrators is brief media shaming. It's a situation that sucks all around.

All we can do is look at the plus side. Operation Fast and Furious failed so spectacularly that it could not be used to attack the 2nd amendment. Plus, the issue with violent illegals supports the causes of the current president.

Good points and another positive aspect is rarely considered . i.e. Lets assume the 2 brave agents who exposed this diabolical scheme had not come forward and the guns flooded into Mexico were traced back to legit gun shops who did sell the guns under protest .

What are the odds ATF would have volunteered that the gunshops were following the Phoenix ATF orders?
Im thinking those ATF masterminds would have eliminated any loose ends. Could Holder and company chance gun shops might have video tape of the orders to sell these guns ?

Thank heaven Donald Trump is POTUS. If the Hilldog had won we could expect many more operations that would make Fast and Furious look like a parking ticket by comparison .

[Ugly Hombre]

"Thank heaven Donald Trump is POTUS. If the Hilldog had won we could expect many more operations that would make Fast and Furious look like a parking ticket by comparison ."

QFT + 1000! Shudder to think what the evil, fat, bat would have come up with.

I am a old bastard, seen our Republic's so called 'leader's do a lot of horse chit stuff- I think the Obama/Holder "fast and furious" gun running operation is maybe the worst thing I have seen our government do in my lifetime in our country by far.

Those weapons will be used by criminals for 50 years. Even El Chapo had one- a .50 Cal. Barret according to reports.

And it makes me GD sick that they got away with it- no charges filed and no justice for the people who were killed with the F/F operation guns.

Every time I see a Prog/Commie Democrat running his or her pie hole about "gun control" I think about their F/F operation and want to barf.

[denpython]

Originally Posted by Solidsnake87

Thanks for stating this and sparing me the effort to do so. It relieves me greatly that others can think objectively, even if it's rare.

On that note, all that needs to happen is for the cover up to occur for about 6 yrs. Then, nothing happens regardless of the details that emerge. Same goes for Hillary's emails.

Sad. The bigger the crime, the less time.