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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #161  
Old 05-21-2019, 8:12 AM
J.R.W. J.R.W. is offline
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As far as scopes go i have beat my poor nikons hard. they hold zero & stay clear .
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  #162  
Old 05-21-2019, 8:31 AM
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Its a hard pill to swallow when you buy a top quality brand rifle and find out later it only shoots 3MOA.(Remington 700 back around 2003). I took it to Bolsa Gunsmithing(Remington authorized for warranty) and they test fired it at 25 yards for a 3/4 group. I was told that was within Spec. I told them I would pay to correct or just get the gun to shoot better. In honesty, was told to get a different gun. They recommend the Weatherby 30-378(for ELK). I bought it at another place and it shot 1/2 MOA.

Point- I believe all quality new rifles should have a Certified 3 shot group stating the MOA of the rifle. Like the Weatherby Range Certified.
Anything less is a gamble- Win some loose some.

Back in the 80s I had a Winchester 70 in 30-06 that was a tack driver with ALL regular 180G hunting ammo. Ive have other rifles that are temperamental and only shoot good with premium ammo.
Every rifle shoots different. If you took three rifles exactly the same and shoot them. They would have a different MOA.
So why gamble on MOA? Regardless of the price.
The price of the rifle should be according to MOA, all other thing equal. So if the exact same rifle shoots 3/4, 1/2,1/4 MOA they will be different prices and you know what the rifle is capable of before you have to buy it.

Then the manufacturer can eat his 3MOA instead of the customers.
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  #163  
Old 05-21-2019, 9:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmithson View Post
Its a hard pill to swallow when you buy a top quality brand rifle and find out later it only shoots 3MOA.

Point- I believe all quality new rifles should have a Certified 3 shot group stating the MOA of the rifle. Like the Weatherby Range Certified.
Anything less is a gamble- Win some loose some.
You mean like the TC COMPASS MOA guarantee?

"(MOA) Minute Of Angle - T/C's match grade barrels with 5R rifling deliver guaranteed Minute of Angle accuracy... 1" (3 shot) groups at 100 yards with premium ammunition."

OR does it have to be a rifle that is more than $399 MSRP ?
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  #164  
Old 05-21-2019, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Isnt that a $360 rifle?
For sure, and dont think Im not embarrassed to admit I spent the same amount of money on the scope that I spent on the package rifle with scope.
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  #165  
Old 05-21-2019, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by deadcoyote View Post
For sure, and don’t think I’m not embarrassed to admit I spent the same amount of money on the scope that I spent on the “package” rifle with scope.
I think my Compass scope was $100 more than the rifle (before I added stuff to it like bolt handle, sling, scope mount, brake, etc...) Who cares. If it doesn't have irons, you can't shoot it without decent glass.

You buy a $200 rifle ($300-$400 rifle on special for a marketing campaign)... cracks me up when people think they know how much you have to spend on glass.

People put $1200 scopes on $350 .22 rimfires... so what? I'm pretty sure it is only BAD if you put a crap scope on ANYTHING at any price.
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  #166  
Old 05-21-2019, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalFocus View Post
I'm just curious, often times I see post on here about "its just a cheap hunting rifle", "you don't need a rifle over $XXX for a hunting rifle", or some version of that.

My counter argument to that is, why bet all the time and money you invest into a hunt on a $300 rifle? So lets add up the cost for a deer hunt...
License $60
Tag $50
Gas to drive a few hundred miles to hunt $200-$300
Ammo for practice and hunt $80
Food for 3-4 days $50-$75
Time off work, vacation days

This is the low end. The cost goes way up if your hauling a camper, have a side by side, want alcohol to drink at night, need new gear like boots or a pack, pay a trespass/gate fee etc. We all know you can drop a thousand or more easily towards a basic deer hunt. Then the cost sky rockets if your going out of state or you use a guide. If you built points for 5 years, your license cost and tag application fees are 5 times higher than the guy that draws year one.

My time in the back country is valuable to me. I can't see making all that hinge of a $300 rifle and $200 scope. Even more so when you don't get a chance to go every year. I'm not saying everyone needs a custom $3000 rifle to hunt, but why is it okay to have the cheapest rifle possible? I want a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA all day. Because when the times comes, I may be a 1 MOA shooter at best. Knowing my rifle isn't going to be a problem is huge for me.

Someone tell me why I'm wrong. Because I'd love to save some money.
A cheap rifle will outshoot somebody in a hunting situation all day, every day. Pie plate accuracy is what you need on big game. It's nothing like being at the shooting bench, or laying on a shooting mat. Typically your rest sucks (if you haven one), your adrenaline is off the charts, your winded, and the animal is moving or about to "go".

I laugh when newbies come into the hunting forum worried about sub-moa accuracy. We don't get to shoot deer from the benches at the range, I wish we did.
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Disagree. Been trying to teach lewdogg21 how to hunt. It's like trying to teach Steve Wonder how to see. Not sure we're ever going to get there.
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  #167  
Old 05-21-2019, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
We don't get to shoot deer from the benches at the range, I wish we did.
No, we don't. Where I shoot, most people are either spraying lead or shoot from a bench. I rarely see anyone practice prone or with sticks or a tripod.
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  #168  
Old 05-21-2019, 5:24 PM
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Its Bass Ackwards to imply that in hunting you dont need a super accurate weapon. Hunters need every advantage they can get. So start with the most accurate weapon you can get your hands on. What is the harm in shooting a 1/2 MOA to hunt instead of 1 or 2 MOA rifle.
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  #169  
Old 05-21-2019, 6:14 PM
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I agree with this. If you buy the best that you can afford in terms of rifle, scope and ammo, and train, the more successful you will be. You will also have confidence in the ability of your rifle, and yourself, and you will have more fun.
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  #170  
Old 05-21-2019, 6:24 PM
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I have a $400 (and that included the Nikon Prostaff scope and a Montana sling) Marlin XL7 and a $1000 Bergara. They'll both do the same job. Ones prettier and has a few nicer features but accuracy is excellent from both. The Marlin has the plastic stock that I don't mind getting wet or scratched so it goes into the rough country more often.
There is plenty to be said for an inexpensive rifle as long as it shoots well and fills your requirements.

Last edited by Sputnik; 05-21-2019 at 7:21 PM..
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  #171  
Old 05-21-2019, 6:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
A cheap rifle will outshoot somebody in a hunting situation all day, every day. Pie plate accuracy is what you need on big game. It's nothing like being at the shooting bench, or laying on a shooting mat. Typically your rest sucks (if you haven one), your adrenaline is off the charts, your winded, and the animal is moving or about to "go".

I laugh when newbies come into the hunting forum worried about sub-moa accuracy. We don't get to shoot deer from the benches at the range, I wish we did.
You gonna love this, I know of at least 2 guys that shot antelope from a bench on a range.
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  #172  
Old 05-21-2019, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmithson View Post
Its a hard pill to swallow when you buy a top quality brand rifle and find out later it only shoots 3MOA.(Remington 700 back around 2003). I took it to Bolsa Gunsmithing(Remington authorized for warranty) and they test fired it at 25 yards for a 3/4 group. I was told that was within Spec. I told them I would pay to correct or just get the gun to shoot better. In honesty, was told to get a different gun. They recommend the Weatherby 30-378(for ELK). I bought it at another place and it shot 1/2 MOA.



Point- I believe all quality new rifles should have a Certified 3 shot group stating the MOA of the rifle. Like the Weatherby Range Certified.

Anything less is a gamble- Win some loose some.



Back in the 80s I had a Winchester 70 in 30-06 that was a tack driver with ALL regular 180G hunting ammo. Ive have other rifles that are temperamental and only shoot good with premium ammo.

Every rifle shoots different. If you took three rifles exactly the same and shoot them. They would have a different MOA.

So why gamble on MOA? Regardless of the price.

The price of the rifle should be according to MOA, all other thing equal. So if the exact same rifle shoots 3/4, 1/2,1/4 MOA they will be different prices and you know what the rifle is capable of before you have to buy it.



Then the manufacturer can eat his 3MOA instead of the customers.


And with what ammo do you propose this testing be done? The rifle is only one part of the system. I have rifles that go from moa to 3 moa with just a bullet weight change. Ive also seen rifles that shoot traditional bullets just fine but choke on lead free bullets of the same weight. Ive never seen a rifle that was equally accurate with every load.


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  #173  
Old 05-21-2019, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
i agree that the cheap rifles shoot pretty good ive seen it first hand but do you think a $400 dollar rifle will shoot 20% BETTER than a custom?


Sometimes, sure. I have a $400 Ruger American Predator that shoots half the group size of my custom VZ24 25-06, which I have at least 3X as much money in.


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  #174  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by scotty99 View Post
And with what ammo do you propose this testing be done? The rifle is only one part of the system. I have rifles that go from moa to 3 moa with just a bullet weight change. Ive also seen rifles that shoot traditional bullets just fine but choke on lead free bullets of the same weight. Ive never seen a rifle that was equally accurate with every load.


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I stated an example in Weatherby Range Certified. They used Weatherby ammo and in the RC give you load data and a print out of the 3 shot group.
My Weatherby RC 338-378 was tested with 225 Grains Barnes TSX with a B.C. 0.532 G1
RAD SD: 0.05, Group: 0.87, Mean Radius: 0.39 / Average Vel 3143 on 3 shot with a 200 yard Zero it has a -32.69 drop at 500 yards.(on the print out of the 3 shot group two were touching and a flyer for .87 MOA)
Sub MOA guaranteed with any premium ammo.

My RC Weatherby 300 Win came with the same info and the 3 shot group was under 5/8 MOA.

Key-guaranteed sub MOA with any premium ammo.
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  #175  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:13 PM
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Correction RAD SD.50
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  #176  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:39 PM
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Ok
Pulled out the data sheet that came with the Weatherby 300Win RC
They tested it with Federal Vital-S... 180 Grains Barnes TSX with a B.C. 0.458
Avg vel 2909, RAD SD 0.36, Group 0.68, Means Radius 0.27/ 200 yard zero has a -41.27 drop at 500 yards.

My 338-378 was tested with Weatherby Sulect Plus at about $160 a box of 20.
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  #177  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:46 PM
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300 Win 180 gr at muzzle has 3400 ft-lbs.
338-378 225 gr at muzzle has 4959 ft-lbs.

The question is would you pay extra to know this information on your rifle and guaranteed sub MOA?
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  #178  
Old 05-21-2019, 10:53 PM
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Last post for now.
I have a Weatherby Vanguard 2 in 30-06 that shoots less then 1/2 MOA and is not Range Certified but just guaranteed Sub.MOA
It out shoots my Other Range Certified.

Go figure?
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  #179  
Old 05-22-2019, 3:05 AM
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
i try to stay out of these "my guns better" conversations but i just couldn't after reading this....do you honestly believe this?
no and yes but it seems that today a lot of starters rifle are being bought more and more than the high end rifles due to accuracy and etc. It's has gotten to the point where high ends are sitting on the Shelf way longer than it was before. I'll give you an example.... Remington... Their two models that where put on the market, to see which was better and could sell more. those two where the model 700 and 788, 788 was the low end rifle which was a cheap starter rifle and 700 was more on the high end during the 70's-90's. The 788 out classed the 700 in every ways, over the next few years between the two, the 788 was so great that most of the buyer would pick the 788 over the 700 and Remington knew that in no time the 700 would fall fast and they need it to make an fast quick decision to go ahead and removed the 788 out of their line. The model 788 For being a $3xx.xx and model 700 being let say $7xx -$8xx. Because Remington was losing money from the 700, they knew an $300 wasn't going to keep them in business even though they have lots of different guns but between the two lines on 700 and 788 they made a very hard decision. Remember during those years the price of an 700 was in the $1k class because money was more Worthy than today. Anyhow today Remington top bolt action is there 700 and it's part of an infantry level that 80% of the Americas use the 700 for hunting and our Military and SWAT team use the 700. If Remington never took the 788 off their line who wouldn't know how today would be between the two.
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  #180  
Old 05-22-2019, 3:32 AM
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Cheap or expensive. Its all in having a good barrel...
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  #181  
Old 05-22-2019, 3:48 AM
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Originally Posted by M1XdColt View Post
no and yes but it seems that today a lot of starters rifle are being bought more and more than the high end rifles due to accuracy and etc. It's has gotten to the point where high ends are sitting on the Shelf way longer than it was before. I'll give you an example.... Remington... Their two models that where put on the market, to see which was better and could sell more. those two where the model 700 and 788, 788 was the low end rifle which was a cheap starter rifle and 700 was more on the high end during the 70's-90's. The 788 out classed the 700 in every ways, over the next few years between the two, the 788 was so great that most of the buyer would pick the 788 over the 700 and Remington knew that in no time the 700 would fall fast and they need it to make an fast quick decision to go ahead and removed the 788 out of their line. The model 788 For being a $3xx.xx and model 700 being let say $7xx -$8xx. Because Remington was losing money from the 700, they knew an $300 wasn't going to keep them in business even though they have lots of different guns but between the two lines on 700 and 788 they made a very hard decision. Remember during those years the price of an 700 was in the $1k class because money was more Worthy than today. Anyhow today Remington top bolt action is there 700 and it's part of an infantry level that 80% of the Americas use the 700 for hunting and our Military and SWAT team use the 700. If Remington never took the 788 off their line who wouldn't know how today would be between the two.
i see what your trying to say but fact of the matter is that ppl are buying cheaper guns not only because they shoot well but more so because they are cheaper.

now in your first post you said that a cheap gun will shoot 20% better than an expensive gun...maybe i miss understood...if your talking about a cheap factory gun and a more expensive factory gun then i tap out because i do not think there is a huge difference when it comes to factory guns but if your saying ANY factory gun will shoot 20% better than say one of my guns then i disagree...and for the record my guns are not bench guns.
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  #182  
Old 05-22-2019, 3:48 AM
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Cheap or expensive. Its all in having a good barrel...
THIS^^^
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  #183  
Old 05-22-2019, 3:52 AM
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Originally Posted by scotty99 View Post
Sometimes, sure. I have a $400 Ruger American Predator that shoots half the group size of my custom VZ24 25-06, which I have at least 3X as much money in.


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this is the shooter not the gun unless something is wrong with the gun...there is not a shooter in the world that can go out and shoot 1 hole group's everyday if someone could there would be one name at the top every time.
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  #184  
Old 05-22-2019, 5:04 AM
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
this is the shooter not the gun unless something is wrong with the gun...there is not a shooter in the world that can go out and shoot 1 hole group's everyday if someone could there would be one name at the top every time.


Same shooter on the same day. Your post implies that all rifles are equally accurate, which is obviously not true.


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  #185  
Old 05-22-2019, 5:34 AM
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Originally Posted by scotty99 View Post
Same shooter on the same day. Your post implies that all rifles are equally accurate, which is obviously not true.


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no my post does not imply that all guns are equally accurate and it does not matter when you shot the gun...your saying that a less accurate gun shoots better than a more accurate gun and if that the case its the shooter not the gun.
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  #186  
Old 05-22-2019, 5:36 AM
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You can have the best barrel in the world and unless it's hooked up right and bedded right with good ammo and a good shooter it ain't gonna work worth a pile of dog manure. Cheap or not.
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  #187  
Old 05-22-2019, 5:40 AM
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Originally Posted by elk hunter View Post
You can have the best barrel in the world and unless it's hooked up right and bedded right with good ammo and a good shooter it ain't gonna work worth a pile of dog manure. Cheap or not.
i agree 100%!
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  #188  
Old 05-22-2019, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by elk hunter View Post
You can have the best barrel in the world and unless it's hooked up right and bedded right with good ammo and a good shooter it ain't gonna work worth a pile of dog manure. Cheap or not.


What a crappy stock and bedding job. What do you think about free floating vs bedding... my 700P has AL bedding blocks IIRC in an HS Precision stock, my Compass is free-floated.
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  #189  
Old 05-22-2019, 9:32 AM
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FWIW, I've seen Compass rifles, basically stock (trigger adjustments, not trigger replacements, stock barrels, factory stock/bedding) in 300 Win Mag, 30-06, 6.5 Creed, and .308 all shoot well under 1"@100 with decent ammo, but not ammo tailored for the individual rifles... just breaking in / sighting in, and noting groups on first few range trips.
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  #190  
Old 05-22-2019, 9:56 AM
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every once in a while even a blind hog will find a acorn, please repeat it over and over.
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  #191  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:02 AM
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every once in a while even a blind hog will find a acorn, please repeat it over and over.
You mean every single TC Compass I've seen easily live up to the MOA guarantee in various calibers, or the Savage action with a Straight Jacket on a 2x4? Or something else?

The Straight Jacket isn't "stock" but it counts as a good barrel in my book. I don't think bedding is best done with a roll of duct tape either, but it is interesting what a good shooter can do. Yeah, that guy is a good shooter with duct taped action and a cardboard "bipod". Not a blind hog. Repeatable? I'd bet it is.
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  #192  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
I have a $400 (and that included the Nikon Prostaff scope and a Montana sling) Marlin XL7 and a $1000 Bergara. They'll both do the same job. Ones prettier and has a few nicer features but accuracy is excellent from both. The Marlin has the plastic stock that I don't mind getting wet or scratched so it goes into the rough country more often.
There is plenty to be said for an inexpensive rifle as long as it shoots well and fills your requirements.
Which one gives you more "warm and fuzzies" when you pull it out of the safe?
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  #193  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tsmithson View Post
I have a Weatherby Vanguard 2 in 30-06 that shoots less then 1/2 MOA and is not Range Certified but just guaranteed Sub.MOA
It out shoots my Other Range Certified.
There is the argument against pricing rifles by their MOA.
Untested does NOT specifically mean bad.
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  #194  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by elk hunter View Post
You can have the best barrel in the world and unless it's hooked up right and bedded right with good ammo and a good shooter it ain't gonna work worth a pile of dog manure. Cheap or not.
And spending money on gunsmithing by someone who does not know what they are doing is not money well spent.
To the guy that has a rebarrelled VZ24 that won't shoot better than his factory ruger, your gunsmith or barrel maker/barrel profile screwed you.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:30 AM
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ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
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What do you think about free floating vs bedding... my 700P has AL bedding blocks IIRC in an HS Precision stock, my Compass is free-floated.
Your HS stock should be free floating the barrel as well.
Bedding compound between the receiver and stock almost never hurts and quite often helps.
There is no downside to making a stock fit a reciever better other than cost.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:53 PM
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There is the argument against pricing rifles by their MOA.
Untested does NOT specifically mean bad.
But it does mean gambling.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:22 PM
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every once in a while even a blind hog will find a acorn, please repeat it over and over.
This particular blind hog is Jacob Bynum out of Rifles Onlyin Corpus Christy, Texas. Hes been kinda good at this stuff for a while.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:28 PM
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But it does mean gambling.
And some bets are much safer than others.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:40 PM
scotty99 scotty99 is offline
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And spending money on gunsmithing by someone who does not know what they are doing is not money well spent.

To the guy that has a rebarrelled VZ24 that won't shoot better than his factory ruger, your gunsmith or barrel maker/barrel profile screwed you.


Well, its a Shilen barrel and you installed it. :-)

Honestly, I think it just needs more load development and I have to finish bedding the stock. Plus, I happened to get a really good Ruger.

My point was in no way meant to disparage the quality or desirability of a custom rifle. I was merely pointing out that we have some really good cheap rifles available to us today. Im sure you would agree that most people would be happy with a custom job that shoots to moa. To be able to buy not just a factory rifle that will do it, but a cheap factory rifle that will do it impresses me.
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Old 05-22-2019, 1:43 PM
longrange1 longrange1 is offline
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Im sure you would agree that most people would be happy with a custom job that shoots to moa.
i would'nt.
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