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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-27-2009, 8:46 AM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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Default "Oakland LEOs were mad" - We all should be

I was thinking last night about a comment someone posted yesterday in one of the Oakland threads about how when the officers came into the hospital they appearred to be mad, and cussing and so on. Well here is my statement on that:

THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE MAD!!!! Some dirtbag felon/parole just killed 4 of their friends and colleagues that day. Who wouldn't be mad? I'm not saying that have a right to act/retaliate in anger, but their position as LEOs does not preclude them from being human. But I would like to take this a little further.

WE SHOULD ALL BE MAD!!!! Why? We as law-abiding citizens should be angry beyond belief that our city/county/state/country has been allowed to deteriorate to this point. But I had to honestly ask myself a question last night: "Who is to blame for allowing this deterioration?"

I think we as law-abiding citizens share some of the blame. We have turned our eyes away, hidden in our houses, and allowed criminal elements to infiltrate every aspect of life in our country, and then hoped "someone else", "them", "the government" would do something about it. Why are these criminals able to move about and engage in their criminal activities nearly unopposed? How are they able to take control of whole neighborhoods? BECAUSE WE LET THEM!!! We let them out of fear, fear of endangering ourselves, fear or reprisal/retaliation, and just plain unsubstantiated fear. And believe me....I'm not excluding myself from that group who has allowed myself to be controlled by fear.

If you think about it....what really is the only thing a criminal fears? Other criminals! Why? Because they know that other criminals are the only ones who will stand up to them and fight whether offensively or defensively without regard for the law. Right now the only "natural predator" for a criminal is other criminals.

We all sit around and talk about our guns and our rights and wanting CCW to protect ourselves and blah blah blah. But what is REALLY needed to turn the tables on crime and criminals? THEY NEED TO FEAR THE LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE!!! They need to be made to realize that there is nothing more fearsome and terrifying then a law-abiding citizen fighting in defense of his home, and "home" should include his neighborhood, his city and so on.

So as you can tell....I am PISSED!!! And most of all I'm pissed at myself for hiding out in my house for years while things just continue to decay. So this is what I come here to ask:

WHAT CAN WE, AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, DO IN THE FORM OF PROACTIVE STEPS NOW TO TURN THE TIDE ON THE DIRTBAGS?

At what point do we realize that if we want to believe that quote about "Police being citizens and citizens being the police" then we actually hafta do it, act it, live it and help the LEOs out so that the lesson for the criminals out of this latest round of violence is: "LISTEN UP DIRTBAGS! TODAY IS THE LAST TIME WE AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS WILL ALLOW YOU TO SEND ANOTHER LEO OR ANYONE ELSE HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES IN A BODYBAG. THE COPS ARE THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES NOW!".

The COPs can't do it on their own. I know they don't like to admit it, but it's not said to deminish theirs skills and efforts. It is simply an acknowledgement of the impossibility of the task we have placed upon them and they have taken on themselves. I applaud them for the efforts but I cannot bear to see another report of a LEO or anyone else being wiped from this earth by a dirtbag that has no regard for anyone but himself!

I would like to hear some real suggestions, the time for action is now! Because the reality is that if we wait till direct action is the only option left it will be too late.

To quote Edmund Burke: "The ONLY thing nessecary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

So again I ask "WHAT ARE WE, MY GOOD MEN & WOMEN, GOING TO DO?"
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:54 AM
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I agree with you completely! I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
My guess is the "average" cop in the street cares far more about his regular paycheck than about gun control.
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Old 03-28-2009, 6:12 PM
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My guess is the "average" cop in the street cares far more about his regular paycheck and bennies than whether we can defend ourselves and our families on the street
fixed it for you...
.

Last edited by GuyW; 03-28-2009 at 6:15 PM..
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Old 03-29-2009, 4:54 AM
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My guess is the "average" cop in the street cares far more about his regular paycheck than about gun control.
True or not, there is the problem of working for a fascist police chief or sheriff. Ask Leroy Pyle in San Jose. He was harassed more than once for being a member of the NRA and being open about it. Joe McNamara tried to fire him; because testified against the Roos-Roberti law in Sacramento. Remember that incident?

KRON interviewed several masked officers at a shooting range. They covered their name plates and badge numbers for the cameras. Their voices were disguised; because they would be demoted or fired.

The first amendment doesn't mean a damned thing to the anti-second amendment crowd either. STFU if you aren't on their banwagon! In fact, many of the sponsors of the new Fairness Doctrine (aimed at talk radio) are also on the NRA's list of enemies on Capitol Hill...

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Old 03-29-2009, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cousinkix1953 View Post
True or not, there is the problem of working for a fascist police chief or sheriff. Ask Leroy Pyle in San Jose. He was harassed more than one for being a member of the NRA and being open about it. Joe McNamara tried to fire him; because testified against the Roos-Roberti law in Sacramento. Remember that incident?

KRON interviewed several masked officers at a shooting range. They covered their name plates and badge numbers for the cameras. Their voices were disguised; because they would be demoted or fired.

The first amendment doesn't mean a damned to the anti-second amendment crowd either. STFU if you aren't on their banwagon! In fact, many of the sponsors of the new Fairness Doctrine (aimed at talk radio) are also on the NRA's list of enemies on Capitol Hill...
Link or info please.
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Old 03-29-2009, 10:56 AM
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I thought this was relevant.

Quote:
I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth. Banks are going bust. Shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's no one anywhere that seems to know what to do with us. Now into it.

We know the air is unfit to breathe, our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TVs while some local newscaster tells us that today we had 15 homicides and 63 violent crimes as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad. Worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy so we don't go out anymore. We sit in a house as slowly the world we're living in is getting smaller and all we say is, "Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster, and TV, and my steel belted radials and I won't say anything." Well I'm not going to leave you alone! I want you to get mad. I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot. I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crying in the streets. All I know is first you've got to get mad. You've got to say, "I'm a human being God Dammit! My life has value!"

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out, and yell, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" I want you to get up right now. Get up. Go to your windows, open your windows, and stick your head out, and yell, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" Things have got to change my friends. You've got to get mad. You've got to say, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open your window, stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!"
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Old 03-29-2009, 9:03 PM
cousinkix1953 cousinkix1953 is offline
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Link or info please.
When did you arrive from another planet. The NRA will provide it's members with their list of our enemies on Capitol Hill. You can get a list of the politicians who sponsored the Fairness Doctrine from most of it's proponents. Be sure to sound sympathetic when you write them.

Sorry, that I don't have any links to a 20 year old KRON 4 news video.

The free speech war between McNamara and Pyle is no secret either. Pyle also has his own website. Still don't believe it? Talk to former state sens. McClinton and Mountjoy...
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:00 AM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by M. Sage View Post
I agree with you completely! I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
I think the time for dreaming of those days and waiting for someone else to force that changes is over. That's my point.....what actions can be taken starting TODAY to MAKE those dreams a reality?
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:18 PM
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I think the time for dreaming of those days and waiting for someone else to force that changes is over. That's my point.....what actions can be taken starting TODAY to MAKE those dreams a reality?
I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. That's what happens when you're tired. My point is that now is a good time to reach out to the police. Now is a good time to let them know that gun owners have their backs against a-holes like the one who killed four of them.

On law and order political matters, the police have a lot of pull. They'd make great allies.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:26 PM
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On law and order political matters, the police police unions have a lot of pull. They'd make great allies.
Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:31 PM
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
Well, the police unions, by nature of the politicians and policies they support, got these officers killed, for all intents and purposes. So they're not on the cops' side either. Will the cops see that for what it is? I can see that they blatantly don't care about the average citizens, but can they keep getting away with blatantly not caring about the police too?
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:39 PM
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
The members in the unions vote.

If we could convince the rank and file to actually give a damn, they could make the changes. All we're lacking is the will on the part of the union members.
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Old 03-27-2009, 7:55 PM
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
Police unions? You're exactly right. The FOP is more anti than most anti political organizations.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:11 AM
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I agree with you completely! I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
The police in Oakland don't like the idea's of CCW's. I asked about it after I got bullet holes in my house because of the gang war going on in front of my house. The lieutenant of my area said "ya, the last thing we want to do in Oakland is put more guns in people's hands".

Personally, I find this attitude outrageous. Furthermore, the cops tell me that THEY would have a hard time living in my neighborhood. But a CCW would still be intolerable to them.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:37 AM
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The police in Oakland don't like the idea's of CCW's. I asked about it after I got bullet holes in my house because of the gang war going on in front of my house. The lieutenant of my area said "ya, the last thing we want to do in Oakland is put more guns in people's hands".

Personally, I find this attitude outrageous. Furthermore, the cops tell me that THEY would have a hard time living in my neighborhood. But a CCW would still be intolerable to them.
I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:40 AM
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I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.
That's really outrageous of them equating lawful CCW by citizens with gangbangers. Are they really that short sighted and stupid? Perspective difference is one thing, but that's 180 degrees out of line. That's like me saying an actor who plays a cop on TV is 100% identical to an actual cop, or that antifreeze is a perfectly edible substitute for lime Jello because they're the same shade of green.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:42 AM
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Nice job regurgitating the Brady play book and giving cover to elitist LEOs who don't deserve it....

....as if residents of Oakland CA who pass a background check are any different than citizens in the 40 free states that do issue CCWs, and where CCW works just fine - for 20 years now.

What IS different about CA from those other 40 states is that we have LEOs who either

a) can't / won't really think for themselves about guns; or

b) don't give a crap about everyday real-world safety of citizens; or

c) don't give a crap about anything but their salary, OT, pension, benefits, and what toy they're gonna buy next to entertain themselves...


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I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.

Last edited by GuyW; 03-29-2009 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:46 AM
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I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.

I can't go for the whole "I'm the police and i'm scared for my safety so screw your rights" thing. Nobody forced anybody to become a police officer, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. That is no excuse to put down ccw's to law abiding citizens. Local agencies could run firearms training programs and run ad's to get people to come out and train with their firearm for a small charge. I also wouldn't be against making (by law) anybody who gets issued a ccw have to do some type of situational/tactical training ever so often anyway.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeC View Post
I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.
I would like this. I'm not sure where the notion ever came up that people are completely incapable of defending their property, neighbors, friends and family.

There aren't enough cops, and they have no control over the neighborhoods. As has been discussed here to no end, my right to self defense should not be trumped because someone else feels nervous about it.
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Old 03-29-2009, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeC View Post
I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.
I'm aware that most cops don't like citizens to have firearms especially in public. Most cops, who I might add only fire their duty weapons for qualification and not because they are enthusiasts, believe that only they know how to handle a firearm, and not those of us that have probably had far more training than them. So it doesn't surprise me that a bunch of Oakland cops would feel the same way.

If the truth be told, they will talk about endangering the public by allowing private citizens to CCW. However, in truth, the cops are far more worried about themselves than they are about you or me. And that's why I find it so interesting that cops in the past have defended 150 PC. I wonder why that is?

What I'm wondering is, what do you mean by vigilante justice? Is it vigilante justice to want an equal opportunity to defend yourself, family and home from the barbarians? Is it vigilante justice to report a crime in progress and have the means to defend yourself in the event the barbarians discover who reported them? Or are we just supposed to do our duty and accept death when it comes? I'll use your words and ask you, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of being disarmed in public against the barbarians that have no regard for your life or the life of your loved ones? We already have the answers to how they feel about the neighborhoods they work in, because they are afraid to live there. You couldn't pay them enough to move their families into those neighborhoods, even though they are armed. Most of the people that can afford to leave have left, and the barbarians have taken over the neighborhoods and terrorize those that aren't so lucky. The cops point a finger at the public and say that it's our fault that criminals get away with committing crimes. Yet if someone does workup the courage or maybe they're just stupid, and choose to inform on the neighborhood barbarians, chances are the cops will be no where when the barbarians strike back. And when that happens, the response is hey we can't be held responsible for protecting each person. While I understand that, what about protecting the people that are trying to make a difference?

What's very interesting is that you addressed the additional carnage that might occur if citizens were allowed to shoot back. Do you really think that it would be worse than it is already? Innocent people are dying at the hands of the barbarians that become even more emboldened with each person they rape, rob, murder, and frighten. Gangs become emboldened, when the law abiding citizens are unable to resist. Do the cops spend that extra effort and set up shop in the neighborhood to discourage the criminals, NO! They may do a few extra patrols through the neighborhood, but generally it's business as usual. Do they actually bring in extra units to provide the coverage and concentrate on a neighborhood, NO! That would cost money. Years ago, I suggested that a temporary command post be set up in a neighborhood with this kind of problem to give the neighborhood the support they need. The response was simply, it's too expensive. I personally look at gang problems the same way a firefighter looks at a fire. You stay until the fire is out. Let the law abiding arm themselves to help put out the fire, and quit fighting against us.

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Old 03-29-2009, 7:43 PM
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Much has been said in this thread about CCW and LEO's. I have seen LEO's referred to as "fascist" and "elitist". Some have said that the rank and file LEO's should rebel against upper management in support of CCW. Of those of you that feel that way, what in your opinion, should LEO's do? How should they do it?
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Old 03-29-2009, 10:04 PM
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If the truth be told, they will talk about endangering the public by allowing private citizens to CCW. However, in truth, the cops are far more worried about themselves than they are about you or me.
That is basically all I was trying to say. And it's understandable considering the risks they face. Everything else I said was just trying to show how it's understandable.
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Old 03-29-2009, 6:07 PM
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The police in Oakland don't like the idea's of CCW's. I asked about it after I got bullet holes in my house because of the gang war going on in front of my house. The lieutenant of my area said "ya, the last thing we want to do in Oakland is put more guns in people's hands".

Personally, I find this attitude outrageous. Furthermore, the cops tell me that THEY would have a hard time living in my neighborhood. But a CCW would still be intolerable to them.
Yeah, a LT. Part of the corrupt command structure that I'd like to see the average cop rebel against.

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I think its a matter of perspective. In their eyes another gun on the street is another gun on the street that they may have to face. Look at all the variables that may turn against them. The gun may be stolen, you may be defending yourself and putting them or another civilian a crossfire, or you shoot a gang member which sparks a gang war in your neighborhood that they have to come in and deal with.

So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right.

You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly.

In the end both parties are scared.
Those are just excuses for an inexcusable attitude. They work for us, yet the politicians in charge, the politicians who masquerade as cops in their command structure, act as though it's the other way around.

As for if I was an LEO in a gang infested neighborhood... No, I wouldn't want them to take to vigilantism, because that would be a violation of someone's rights. I would like to see them armed, trained, even patrolling to interrupt any crimes in progress they may stumble across. At the very least, armed and trained to defend themselves, their family and their neighbors should the need arise.

Basically, what I'm saying is that anybody who would use the excuses you listed as a reason to oppose any aspect of gun ownership by law-abiding citizens is a moron.

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Basically, you guys hit it on the head. Ive lost all faith in the state of california and am preparing myself for the long haul. The only redeeming factor to be totally honest is the type of folks who are on here. While I dont think there will be anything that can be done short of a Federal Judges' ruling or Anarchy, I think the good people in this state have lost the battle. We only participate in small skirmishes now, and while we may win some of them, the true battle has already been lost.
I disagree that CA is a lost cause. It actually annoys me that I left while there's a fight still to be fought there. The only thing that makes it palatable to me is that CA is not my home; I wasn't born there.

I do agree, though, that the only thing I miss is hanging out with Calgunners!

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In situations like this, specifically Oakland, I like to be able to see things from both sides.
That only really makes a difference if the other side is willing to see your side in return. Otherwise, it usually doesn't matter if you see both sides, because you're still going to have to fight instead of compromise.

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We've seen how bipolar the attitude is in Oakland. We've seen how volatile the situation is over there. It's cops versus gangers. Now it has the potential to be cops versus citizens because of the perceived martyrdom of Mixon. In some neighborhoods the gangers look like the regular citizens. It's like the insurgency in Iraq. Who is the enemy? The guy with the gun? That could be a CCW citizen.
One thing that would help curb the violence by eroding the criminal side's base of support would be a social shift away from listening to rap "music" and away from the idiotic culture including mode of dress that revolves around it.

Criminality and rap "music"/culture go hand in hand.

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Police go in see a guy with a gun who may be a ganger, or a CCW defending himself. Either way they are already afraid for their lives, even more so now with the recent killings. What are they to think?
I hate to say it, but they need to man up and master that fear or go find a quieter job. Hell, after nearly being killed by Bay Area morons twice inside of three miles one day, I almost quit riding my motorcycle, but I mastered my fear and have been riding almost a year since that day.

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The cautious CCW attitude in Oakland is understandable and even justifiable based on the perceived safety of the officers individually. What I'm talking about here is each officers own personal view of their safety. I'm not talking politics or political agendas or governments. I'm sure you guys can agree and can sympathize with cops who have to go into neighborhoods full of guns and gangs.
Cautious!? It's not cautious, it's wrong-headed! How is such willful ignorance, outright stupidity and arrogance ever justifiable or understandable?

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Not all citizens are logical and reasonable people. Its not black and white between citizens and criminals. Some law abiding citizens can be just as crazy as criminals. Give that person a gun and you have potential trouble. How would you feel as a cop going into a situation with armed criminals and armed citizens who may be emotionally charged and irrational? Its dangerous.
Useless argument, and an example of willful ignorance. The data from free states with shall-issue shows that CHL holders are far, far less likely to commit a violent crime than even off-duty cops! The data is out there, and you can bet your *** the police who argue against citizen CCW have access to it.

Arguing a position from a purely emotional stance is a bad move, especially when facts show that the position is 100% incorrect.

If we want to argue using the same illogical emotional argument as "citizens with CHLs can be dangerous to cops", we can also argue that it's perfectly fine and normal to be afraid of the dark, because you can't tell what's there! It could be anything out in that dark, so be sure and leave a light on.

Dunno about you, but I don't want to be "protected" by people who are afraid of the bogeyman lurking in the dark.

[QUOTE=JoeC;2240307]Now if this was the case in a safer city like San Jose or San Diego, I'd think it was ridiculous. Like in San Diego where they don't issue CCW's for political and personal beliefs. I don't like that. [/quote

Huh? It's more logical to issue CCWs in safer cities!? I don't know about you, but I never felt (or seen) the need to carry a gun in Palo Alto or Hillsborough. I can tell you, though, that taking a gun into SF or Oakland always was an appealing thought.

Why bother carrying where you're already safe? I always wanted to keep a loaded AK on me in some parts of Oakland.... so I'd be safer.

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But please make no mistake. I'm for CCW. In all this I'm just thinking of officers own thoughts in regards to their own safety. CCW in a case like Oakland has to be done carefully and methodically to make sure it doesn't make things worse.
Why bother thinking of what a coward or a moron may be thinking? Cowardice and stupidity are a waste of time.

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Is it that outrageous? Think about what I said above. Cops arrive and see two guys who look relatively the same both holding guns. Or they arrive where someone is already shot and the other person has a gun. Its perfectly logical for them to think the guy might be a ganger. Unless its a little old lady of course.
Yes, it's outrageous. Law-abiding citizens hang around and wait for the cops after a defensive shoot. 99% of the time, gang bangers bug out.

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It's not the same in other states because the situation was never allowed to spiral to this level of chaos. Other states retained their gun rights and thus kept criminals in check. CA enacted these dumb laws which built up a situation where criminals are out of control in certain areas.
Wrong! Wrong wrong wrong. Michigan went to shall-issue after Detroit had spiraled into worse chaos than Oakland will probably ever see. Detroit didn't really get any better, but it sure as hell didn't get worse.

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In the end I like order. I hate chaos. I'd like to see the problem resolved in an orderly fashion if possible.
I love chaos. Not wide-spread and not in my personal life, but chaos is nothing but an opportunity to profit. Heck, I make my living from bringing order from chaos (taking broke cars and un-breaking them).

It's like the old saying: when life gives you lemons...

In other words: quit drinking the FUD-flavored Koolaid.
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Old 03-29-2009, 7:06 PM
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stuff
I'm not drinking FUD koolaid. I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. I'm not talking about the country as a whole here but the situation in Oakland specifically.

Reading what Smokey wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey510 View Post
The police in Oakland don't like the idea's of CCW's. I asked about it after I got bullet holes in my house because of the gang war going on in front of my house. The lieutenant of my area said "ya, the last thing we want to do in Oakland is put more guns in people's hands".

Personally, I find this attitude outrageous. Furthermore, the cops tell me that THEY would have a hard time living in my neighborhood. But a CCW would still be intolerable to them.
I don't believe that is a direct quote, but it indicates an environment of fear. Note the context: a gang war. To them its another gun in a gang war environment.

You say:
Quote:
Arguing a position from a purely emotional stance is a bad move, especially when facts show that the position is 100% incorrect.
It's a bad move, but it is how people respond. If it wasn't then Barack probably wouldn't be president. If it wasn't then we wouldn't be in this anti-gun nonsense in the first place.

I think the civilians in Oakland should be armed. I'm just trying to say, in probably too many words, that based on Smokey's quote, the cops in Oakland seem to be afraid of more guns because of how bad things are, and that is understandable. I'm not trying to justify anti-CCW attitude.
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Old 03-29-2009, 8:00 PM
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I'm not drinking FUD koolaid. I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. I'm not talking about the country as a whole here but the situation in Oakland specifically.

Reading what Smokey wrote:

I don't believe that is a direct quote, but it indicates an environment of fear. Note the context: a gang war. To them its another gun in a gang war environment.

You say:

It's a bad move, but it is how people respond. If it wasn't then Barack probably wouldn't be president. If it wasn't then we wouldn't be in this anti-gun nonsense in the first place.

I think the civilians in Oakland should be armed. I'm just trying to say, in probably too many words, that based on Smokey's quote, the cops in Oakland seem to be afraid of more guns because of how bad things are, and that is understandable. I'm not trying to justify anti-CCW attitude.
That was just about an exact quote and it included a chuckle, and I felt that chuckle meant he thought it was a dumb idea. Granted, he was a lietenant, not a street cop. I don't know if the street cops have a different attitude.
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:58 AM
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It would be more surprising if they weren't mad.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:02 AM
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What are we going to do? We're going to continue suffering from the idiocy of the liberal politicians who have this state by the gonads. There sure as hell is NOT going to be an armed uprising to right the wrongs that've been pressed down upon our collective brow like a crown of thorns. Don't be a fool by getting your hopes up that any sweeping change is in the works because that just is NOT going to happen. Nordyke MAY give us a measure of relief and maybe not, only time will tell. I'm guessing I'll be long dead and buried before there is any appreciable improvement in the whole situation known as the State of California.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:17 AM
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Come on guys.....I'm asking for help to try and look at the bigger picture. Yes...I agree that getting gun restrictions changed and CCW and all that stuff is important. But it's not the miracle cure. I know this is a gun website....but expand your focus if you can.

The fact is that crime has always been a part of any society all the way back to Cain killing Able. It's like a cancer, if you don't take regular steps to erradicate it when it pops up it spreads like wild fire. We post on here day after day about how the government/LEOs can't protect us and laws do nothing to stop crime. Yet when I ask "What can we do" I get answers back needing the government/LEOs to get the laws changed.

And I know it's a hard thing for law-abiding citizens to do because whether we like to admit it or not, we fear the law more than we fear criminals. That's why laws work on law-abiding citizens and not criminals. Now I am not advocating forming armed vigilante posses or anything like that.....at least not yet. LOL If we sit back and wait now, the time will come when armed posses will be the only answer.

But there hasta be something MORE we can all do! Give me some ideas.

How's this for starters: Demand a town hall meeting with your local police chief / sheriff to discuss more realistic options on what citizens can do, or perhaps INFORM them what their citizens intend to do and to help them understand they these citizens are not the enemy and need not be feared, but rather supported in their efforts.

THINK PEOPLE!!! THINK!!!
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:32 AM
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Interesting ideas, but I challenge you to look at this from a different perspective, the one I think prevails in CA. Kid may back me up on this. The govt - doesn't want our help - they want us to be docile little sheep that go to work and pay taxes, that's it. They don't want us armed, thinking too much or responsible for ourselves. Heck look at the political reaction to this, more gun control -- come on how do you beat that.

IMO CA is a lost cause and the only hope is a Federal Judge ramming home to CLEOs and the legislature that the people have a right to defend themselves.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:54 AM
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Interesting ideas, but I challenge you to look at this from a different perspective, the one I think prevails in CA. Kid may back me up on this. The govt - doesn't want our help - they want us to be docile little sheep that go to work and pay taxes, that's it. They don't want us armed, thinking too much or responsible for ourselves. Heck look at the political reaction to this, more gun control -- come on how do you beat that.

IMO CA is a lost cause and the only hope is a Federal Judge ramming home to CLEOs and the legislature that the people have a right to defend themselves.

I agree with you......right now the general stance of gov't is "we dont want your help", "You need us to think for you" and so on. But if they meet no resistance to such ideologies and policies that follow from it, then they've already have they not?

What I'm talking about is not accepting that answer anymore. Not sitting back and asking "What is the gov't going to do for us." But instead TELLING them what we ARE going to do for them. Pretty much something like "We've given you X number of years, and this is what we've gotten and we're not happy with it. So this is what WE are going to do to rectify it. Your support is not required, but would be greatly appreciated."

The reason things have gotten this far is because people didn't resist early enough on to keep it from getting here. There are only 2 solutions I see at this point A) Give up now and throw in the towel and say it's too late, or B) start doing what should have been along time ago.

Not saying option B is easy, digging yourself out of a hole never is. But it is the only way out.....otherwise that hole you're in will soon become your grave. It is such self-willed determination in the heart of individuals that brought people to this continent and made this country great and it will take such determination to keep it from total collapse.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:58 AM
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.

If it were possible for at least the majority of people to take responsibility for themselves and their security, rather than relying on a bloated and questionably effective police force, then these problems would not exist.

But that's not likely to happen until the police stop getting paychecks, or their job becomes to dangerous for the pay they are getting.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:02 AM
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But that's not likely to happen until the police stop getting paychecks, or their job becomes to dangerous for the pay they are getting.

But that's not gonna happen until the new regime has spent all of your money. Do you want to wait that long?
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:10 AM
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.
Well said.

Americans are now indoctrinated from birth to shirk responsibility, trust the government as provider and do whatever "feels good" and is best for them in the moment (damn the long-term and unintended consequences).

The truth is, Kid, it's not the liberal politicians who have this state and country by the gonads- our society evolved into one which volunteered them into the jaws of the vise, only to look to the same government with the hand on the screw for help and encouragement.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:48 PM
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I agree with a few different posts here.

I think what we need to do, is show the LEOs and Govt, that we are capable of making decisions involving our safety, and the safety of our lives. Make them understand that WE are responsible for ourselves, and we aren't functioning at a "Mob Mentality" level.

Once they understand that part, the criminals will take notice. They will see that the police arent in a hurry to come rescue them from the house they just tried to break into. They will notice that the guy behind the counter at the liquor store is no longer afraid because in his hand is .45 that he has owned and shot for years, making him deadly accurate.

Once WE get the rights WE need to protect OURSELVES from criminals, we will be more scary then the police departments. There are more law abiding citizens then there are LEOs and criminals combined.

It is about education, and balls. We as a whole lack both.
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Old 03-28-2009, 5:31 PM
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Very nicely said OP! I agree 100% and know exactly how you feel.

If every law-abiding citizen reported criminal actions or actually did something about it.. it would go a very long way..

Salinas is real close to where I live. And I've heard of residents getting sick of the gang violence. But these scared mother ******s don't do **** about it.

This is pretty much how America is now.. everyone wants a hand out and wants someone to wipe their a** for them. It's really sad, and I'm pissed at society for what it has become.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:01 PM
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.

If it were possible for at least the majority of people to take responsibility for themselves and their security, rather than relying on a bloated and questionably effective police force, then these problems would not exist.

But that's not likely to happen until the police stop getting paychecks, or their job becomes to dangerous for the pay they are getting.
the problem is the apathy of the general populace. 'I'm too busy managing this restaurant, or trying to make my house payment to worry about the security and crime in my city. And the LE agencies, don't like others horning in on their business. (frankly i don't think i've ever met a cop on duty who seemed like he liked anyone, off duty sometimes a different story) the problem of why the criminals don't fear the general population is due to the fact that most people are sheep, who do what they are told. who only spend their precious neurons on what will most benefit them and their often misbehaved progeny. if everyone cared about the welfare and safety of others around them, say even a 3 house radius, the overlap would cover everyone. if neighbors watched out for each other, a lot of property crimes wouldn't happen. apathy and short sightedness.
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Old 03-29-2009, 1:54 PM
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IMO CA is a lost cause and the only hope is a Federal Judge ramming home to CLEOs and the legislature that the people have a right to defend themselves.
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Personally, I think things are going to get a hell of a lot worse, 4 officers KIA in one day won't be a big number at all.
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.
Basically, you guys hit it on the head. Ive lost all faith in the state of california and am preparing myself for the long haul. The only redeeming factor to be totally honest is the type of folks who are on here. While I dont think there will be anything that can be done short of a Federal Judges' ruling or Anarchy, I think the good people in this state have lost the battle. We only participate in small skirmishes now, and while we may win some of them, the true battle has already been lost.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
WE SHOULD ALL BE MAD!!!! Why? We as law-abiding citizens should be angry beyond belief that our city/county/state/country has been allowed to deteriorate to this point. But I had to honestly ask myself a question last night: "Who is to blame for allowing this deterioration?"

I think we as law-abiding citizens share some of the blame. We have turned our eyes away, hidden in our houses, and allowed criminal elements to infiltrate every aspect of life in our country, and then hoped "someone else", "them", "the government" would do something about it. Why are these criminals able to move about and engage in their criminal activities nearly unopposed? How are they able to take control of whole neighborhoods? BECAUSE WE LET THEM!!! We let them out of fear, fear of endangering ourselves, fear or reprisal/retaliation, and just plain unsubstantiated fear. And believe me....I'm not excluding myself from that group who has allowed myself to be controlled by fear.

If you think about it....what really is the only thing a criminal fears? Other criminals! Why? Because they know that other criminals are the only ones who will stand up to them and fight whether offensively or defensively without regard for the law. Right now the only "natural predator" for a criminal is other criminals.

The COPs can't do it on their own. I know they don't like to admit it, but it's not said to deminish theirs skills and efforts. It is simply an acknowledgement of the impossibility of the task we have placed upon them and they have taken on themselves. I applaud them for the efforts but I cannot bear to see another report of a LEO or anyone else being wiped from this earth by a dirtbag that has no regard for anyone but himself!

So again I ask "WHAT ARE WE, MY GOOD MEN & WOMEN, GOING TO DO?"
I did a little condensing on your thread, just a little space saving.

Who's to blame? Directly - the folks who run Oakland. Indirectly - the folks who voted for the folks who run Oakland.

When the people who run Oakland are more concerned with controlling the police than allowing them to do their job, or pay great heed to community activists who prefer to rein in the police, they foster an environment which weakens the police and embolden the criminals.

Make no mistake - most of the people who live in Oakland are decent and hardworking. The police make mistakes and must be accountable. But there is a difference between accountability and handicapping them. I think the police CAN do the job if they are allowed.

I believe there were +160 murders in Oakland last year, about 90% involved a parolee as a victim or offender. In Alameda Cty last year there were fewer than 5 Officer involved shootings - where is the community outrage at the friends, brothers, uncles & dads killing & being killed by one another? Where are the community meetings addressing these folks killing one another? Where's the effort to address this by the elected officials?

It's much easier to critique the police as an entity than the challenge of looking inward, at one's own community.

Let the police enforce the law. Watch over them, but show more concern about catching and punishing offenders.

And so far as criminal fearing only other criminals - why is that? Will the other criminal call the cops, call a local news station & rat them out? Nope, of corse not - there's a good chance they'll shoot them and that's why one criminal fears another. So loosen up on the CCW laws (again, elected officials and the people who elect them) and maybe the average person will become involved.

Last edited by dfletcher; 03-27-2009 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:47 AM
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MontClaire MontClaire is offline
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I was thinking the same thing but you laid it out so well.
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