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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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"Oakland LEOs were mad" - We all should be
I was thinking last night about a comment someone posted yesterday in one of the Oakland threads about how when the officers came into the hospital they appearred to be mad, and cussing and so on. Well here is my statement on that:
THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE MAD!!!! Some dirtbag felon/parole just killed 4 of their friends and colleagues that day. Who wouldn't be mad? I'm not saying that have a right to act/retaliate in anger, but their position as LEOs does not preclude them from being human. But I would like to take this a little further. WE SHOULD ALL BE MAD!!!! Why? We as law-abiding citizens should be angry beyond belief that our city/county/state/country has been allowed to deteriorate to this point. But I had to honestly ask myself a question last night: "Who is to blame for allowing this deterioration?" I think we as law-abiding citizens share some of the blame. We have turned our eyes away, hidden in our houses, and allowed criminal elements to infiltrate every aspect of life in our country, and then hoped "someone else", "them", "the government" would do something about it. Why are these criminals able to move about and engage in their criminal activities nearly unopposed? How are they able to take control of whole neighborhoods? BECAUSE WE LET THEM!!! We let them out of fear, fear of endangering ourselves, fear or reprisal/retaliation, and just plain unsubstantiated fear. And believe me....I'm not excluding myself from that group who has allowed myself to be controlled by fear. If you think about it....what really is the only thing a criminal fears? Other criminals! Why? Because they know that other criminals are the only ones who will stand up to them and fight whether offensively or defensively without regard for the law. Right now the only "natural predator" for a criminal is other criminals. We all sit around and talk about our guns and our rights and wanting CCW to protect ourselves and blah blah blah. But what is REALLY needed to turn the tables on crime and criminals? THEY NEED TO FEAR THE LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE!!! They need to be made to realize that there is nothing more fearsome and terrifying then a law-abiding citizen fighting in defense of his home, and "home" should include his neighborhood, his city and so on. So as you can tell....I am PISSED!!! And most of all I'm pissed at myself for hiding out in my house for years while things just continue to decay. So this is what I come here to ask: WHAT CAN WE, AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, DO IN THE FORM OF PROACTIVE STEPS NOW TO TURN THE TIDE ON THE DIRTBAGS? At what point do we realize that if we want to believe that quote about "Police being citizens and citizens being the police" then we actually hafta do it, act it, live it and help the LEOs out so that the lesson for the criminals out of this latest round of violence is: "LISTEN UP DIRTBAGS! TODAY IS THE LAST TIME WE AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS WILL ALLOW YOU TO SEND ANOTHER LEO OR ANYONE ELSE HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES IN A BODYBAG. THE COPS ARE THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES NOW!". The COPs can't do it on their own. I know they don't like to admit it, but it's not said to deminish theirs skills and efforts. It is simply an acknowledgement of the impossibility of the task we have placed upon them and they have taken on themselves. I applaud them for the efforts but I cannot bear to see another report of a LEO or anyone else being wiped from this earth by a dirtbag that has no regard for anyone but himself! I would like to hear some real suggestions, the time for action is now! Because the reality is that if we wait till direct action is the only option left it will be too late. To quote Edmund Burke: "The ONLY thing nessecary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." So again I ask "WHAT ARE WE, MY GOOD MEN & WOMEN, GOING TO DO?"
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
Last edited by Untamed1972; 03-27-2009 at 8:49 AM.. |
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I agree with you completely! I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.
The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure. |
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bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum. |
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. Last edited by GuyW; 03-28-2009 at 6:15 PM.. |
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KRON interviewed several masked officers at a shooting range. They covered their name plates and badge numbers for the cameras. Their voices were disguised; because they would be demoted or fired. The first amendment doesn't mean a damned thing to the anti-second amendment crowd either. STFU if you aren't on their banwagon! In fact, many of the sponsors of the new Fairness Doctrine (aimed at talk radio) are also on the NRA's list of enemies on Capitol Hill... Last edited by cousinkix1953; 03-29-2009 at 8:52 PM.. |
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I thought this was relevant.
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When did you arrive from another planet. The NRA will provide it's members with their list of our enemies on Capitol Hill. You can get a list of the politicians who sponsored the Fairness Doctrine from most of it's proponents. Be sure to sound sympathetic when you write them.
Sorry, that I don't have any links to a 20 year old KRON 4 news video. The free speech war between McNamara and Pyle is no secret either. Pyle also has his own website. Still don't believe it? Talk to former state sens. McClinton and Mountjoy... |
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
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On law and order political matters, the police have a lot of pull. They'd make great allies. |
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
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I do not provide legal services or practice law (yet). The troublemaker formerly known as Blackwater OPS. |
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Well, the police unions, by nature of the politicians and policies they support, got these officers killed, for all intents and purposes. So they're not on the cops' side either. Will the cops see that for what it is? I can see that they blatantly don't care about the average citizens, but can they keep getting away with blatantly not caring about the police too?
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"You can't stop insane people from doing insane things with insane laws. That's insane!" -- Penn Jillette Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal. |
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If we could convince the rank and file to actually give a damn, they could make the changes. All we're lacking is the will on the part of the union members. |
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Police unions? You're exactly right. The FOP is more anti than most anti political organizations.
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Personally, I find this attitude outrageous. Furthermore, the cops tell me that THEY would have a hard time living in my neighborhood. But a CCW would still be intolerable to them. |
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So they're looking at it from the perspective of outnumbered cops in an already dangerous area with guns around and one more gun is exactly that, one more gun. From your perspective its 'I'm surrounded by gangs and guns and I want to protect myself' which I think is perfectly fine and also your right. You have to ask yourself though, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of armed civilians in a gang neighborhood potentially dispensing vigilante justice against gang members already shooting each other, and other cops, up? It just makes a volatile situation more deadly. In the end both parties are scared. |
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"You can't stop insane people from doing insane things with insane laws. That's insane!" -- Penn Jillette Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal. |
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Nice job regurgitating the Brady play book and giving cover to elitist LEOs who don't deserve it....
....as if residents of Oakland CA who pass a background check are any different than citizens in the 40 free states that do issue CCWs, and where CCW works just fine - for 20 years now. What IS different about CA from those other 40 states is that we have LEOs who either a) can't / won't really think for themselves about guns; or b) don't give a crap about everyday real-world safety of citizens; or c) don't give a crap about anything but their salary, OT, pension, benefits, and what toy they're gonna buy next to entertain themselves... Quote:
Last edited by GuyW; 03-29-2009 at 11:57 AM.. |
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I can't go for the whole "I'm the police and i'm scared for my safety so screw your rights" thing. Nobody forced anybody to become a police officer, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. That is no excuse to put down ccw's to law abiding citizens. Local agencies could run firearms training programs and run ad's to get people to come out and train with their firearm for a small charge. I also wouldn't be against making (by law) anybody who gets issued a ccw have to do some type of situational/tactical training ever so often anyway.
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There aren't enough cops, and they have no control over the neighborhoods. As has been discussed here to no end, my right to self defense should not be trumped because someone else feels nervous about it. |
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If the truth be told, they will talk about endangering the public by allowing private citizens to CCW. However, in truth, the cops are far more worried about themselves than they are about you or me. And that's why I find it so interesting that cops in the past have defended 150 PC. I wonder why that is? What I'm wondering is, what do you mean by vigilante justice? Is it vigilante justice to want an equal opportunity to defend yourself, family and home from the barbarians? Is it vigilante justice to report a crime in progress and have the means to defend yourself in the event the barbarians discover who reported them? Or are we just supposed to do our duty and accept death when it comes? I'll use your words and ask you, if you were a LEO would you like the idea of being disarmed in public against the barbarians that have no regard for your life or the life of your loved ones? We already have the answers to how they feel about the neighborhoods they work in, because they are afraid to live there. You couldn't pay them enough to move their families into those neighborhoods, even though they are armed. Most of the people that can afford to leave have left, and the barbarians have taken over the neighborhoods and terrorize those that aren't so lucky. The cops point a finger at the public and say that it's our fault that criminals get away with committing crimes. Yet if someone does workup the courage or maybe they're just stupid, and choose to inform on the neighborhood barbarians, chances are the cops will be no where when the barbarians strike back. And when that happens, the response is hey we can't be held responsible for protecting each person. While I understand that, what about protecting the people that are trying to make a difference? What's very interesting is that you addressed the additional carnage that might occur if citizens were allowed to shoot back. Do you really think that it would be worse than it is already? Innocent people are dying at the hands of the barbarians that become even more emboldened with each person they rape, rob, murder, and frighten. Gangs become emboldened, when the law abiding citizens are unable to resist. Do the cops spend that extra effort and set up shop in the neighborhood to discourage the criminals, NO! They may do a few extra patrols through the neighborhood, but generally it's business as usual. Do they actually bring in extra units to provide the coverage and concentrate on a neighborhood, NO! That would cost money. Years ago, I suggested that a temporary command post be set up in a neighborhood with this kind of problem to give the neighborhood the support they need. The response was simply, it's too expensive. I personally look at gang problems the same way a firefighter looks at a fire. You stay until the fire is out. Let the law abiding arm themselves to help put out the fire, and quit fighting against us. Last edited by Piper; 03-29-2009 at 7:20 PM.. |
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Much has been said in this thread about CCW and LEO's. I have seen LEO's referred to as "fascist" and "elitist". Some have said that the rank and file LEO's should rebel against upper management in support of CCW. Of those of you that feel that way, what in your opinion, should LEO's do? How should they do it?
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One guy walks over to the black rifle area and starts gazing. An employee asked him if he knew what he wanted. The guy answered "Not sure......definitely something black.............and short...............and tactical." "I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him." -Mark Twain |
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That is basically all I was trying to say. And it's understandable considering the risks they face. Everything else I said was just trying to show how it's understandable.
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As for if I was an LEO in a gang infested neighborhood... No, I wouldn't want them to take to vigilantism, because that would be a violation of someone's rights. I would like to see them armed, trained, even patrolling to interrupt any crimes in progress they may stumble across. At the very least, armed and trained to defend themselves, their family and their neighbors should the need arise. Basically, what I'm saying is that anybody who would use the excuses you listed as a reason to oppose any aspect of gun ownership by law-abiding citizens is a moron. Quote:
I do agree, though, that the only thing I miss is hanging out with Calgunners! Quote:
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Criminality and rap "music"/culture go hand in hand. Quote:
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Arguing a position from a purely emotional stance is a bad move, especially when facts show that the position is 100% incorrect. If we want to argue using the same illogical emotional argument as "citizens with CHLs can be dangerous to cops", we can also argue that it's perfectly fine and normal to be afraid of the dark, because you can't tell what's there! It could be anything out in that dark, so be sure and leave a light on. Dunno about you, but I don't want to be "protected" by people who are afraid of the bogeyman lurking in the dark. [QUOTE=JoeC;2240307]Now if this was the case in a safer city like San Jose or San Diego, I'd think it was ridiculous. Like in San Diego where they don't issue CCW's for political and personal beliefs. I don't like that. [/quote Huh? It's more logical to issue CCWs in safer cities!? I don't know about you, but I never felt (or seen) the need to carry a gun in Palo Alto or Hillsborough. I can tell you, though, that taking a gun into SF or Oakland always was an appealing thought. Why bother carrying where you're already safe? I always wanted to keep a loaded AK on me in some parts of Oakland.... so I'd be safer. Quote:
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It's like the old saying: when life gives you lemons... In other words: quit drinking the FUD-flavored Koolaid. |
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I'm not drinking FUD koolaid. I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. I'm not talking about the country as a whole here but the situation in Oakland specifically.
Reading what Smokey wrote: Quote:
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I think the civilians in Oakland should be armed. I'm just trying to say, in probably too many words, that based on Smokey's quote, the cops in Oakland seem to be afraid of more guns because of how bad things are, and that is understandable. I'm not trying to justify anti-CCW attitude. |
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#27
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It would be more surprising if they weren't mad.
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bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum. |
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What are we going to do? We're going to continue suffering from the idiocy of the liberal politicians who have this state by the gonads. There sure as hell is NOT going to be an armed uprising to right the wrongs that've been pressed down upon our collective brow like a crown of thorns. Don't be a fool by getting your hopes up that any sweeping change is in the works because that just is NOT going to happen. Nordyke MAY give us a measure of relief and maybe not, only time will tell. I'm guessing I'll be long dead and buried before there is any appreciable improvement in the whole situation known as the State of California.
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Things usually turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out. |
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Come on guys.....I'm asking for help to try and look at the bigger picture. Yes...I agree that getting gun restrictions changed and CCW and all that stuff is important. But it's not the miracle cure. I know this is a gun website....but expand your focus if you can.
The fact is that crime has always been a part of any society all the way back to Cain killing Able. It's like a cancer, if you don't take regular steps to erradicate it when it pops up it spreads like wild fire. We post on here day after day about how the government/LEOs can't protect us and laws do nothing to stop crime. Yet when I ask "What can we do" I get answers back needing the government/LEOs to get the laws changed. And I know it's a hard thing for law-abiding citizens to do because whether we like to admit it or not, we fear the law more than we fear criminals. That's why laws work on law-abiding citizens and not criminals. Now I am not advocating forming armed vigilante posses or anything like that.....at least not yet. LOL If we sit back and wait now, the time will come when armed posses will be the only answer. But there hasta be something MORE we can all do! Give me some ideas. How's this for starters: Demand a town hall meeting with your local police chief / sheriff to discuss more realistic options on what citizens can do, or perhaps INFORM them what their citizens intend to do and to help them understand they these citizens are not the enemy and need not be feared, but rather supported in their efforts. THINK PEOPLE!!! THINK!!!
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
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Interesting ideas, but I challenge you to look at this from a different perspective, the one I think prevails in CA. Kid may back me up on this. The govt - doesn't want our help - they want us to be docile little sheep that go to work and pay taxes, that's it. They don't want us armed, thinking too much or responsible for ourselves. Heck look at the political reaction to this, more gun control -- come on how do you beat that.
IMO CA is a lost cause and the only hope is a Federal Judge ramming home to CLEOs and the legislature that the people have a right to defend themselves. |
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I agree with you......right now the general stance of gov't is "we dont want your help", "You need us to think for you" and so on. But if they meet no resistance to such ideologies and policies that follow from it, then they've already have they not? What I'm talking about is not accepting that answer anymore. Not sitting back and asking "What is the gov't going to do for us." But instead TELLING them what we ARE going to do for them. Pretty much something like "We've given you X number of years, and this is what we've gotten and we're not happy with it. So this is what WE are going to do to rectify it. Your support is not required, but would be greatly appreciated." The reason things have gotten this far is because people didn't resist early enough on to keep it from getting here. There are only 2 solutions I see at this point A) Give up now and throw in the towel and say it's too late, or B) start doing what should have been along time ago. Not saying option B is easy, digging yourself out of a hole never is. But it is the only way out.....otherwise that hole you're in will soon become your grave. It is such self-willed determination in the heart of individuals that brought people to this continent and made this country great and it will take such determination to keep it from total collapse.
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.
If it were possible for at least the majority of people to take responsibility for themselves and their security, rather than relying on a bloated and questionably effective police force, then these problems would not exist. But that's not likely to happen until the police stop getting paychecks, or their job becomes to dangerous for the pay they are getting.
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I do not provide legal services or practice law (yet). The troublemaker formerly known as Blackwater OPS. |
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But that's not gonna happen until the new regime has spent all of your money. Do you want to wait that long?
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
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Americans are now indoctrinated from birth to shirk responsibility, trust the government as provider and do whatever "feels good" and is best for them in the moment (damn the long-term and unintended consequences). The truth is, Kid, it's not the liberal politicians who have this state and country by the gonads- our society evolved into one which volunteered them into the jaws of the vise, only to look to the same government with the hand on the screw for help and encouragement.
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Brandon Combs I do not read private messages, and my inbox is usually full. If you need to reach me, please email me instead. My comments are not the official position or a statement of any organization unless stated otherwise. My comments are not legal advice; if you want or need legal advice, hire a lawyer. |
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I agree with a few different posts here.
I think what we need to do, is show the LEOs and Govt, that we are capable of making decisions involving our safety, and the safety of our lives. Make them understand that WE are responsible for ourselves, and we aren't functioning at a "Mob Mentality" level. Once they understand that part, the criminals will take notice. They will see that the police arent in a hurry to come rescue them from the house they just tried to break into. They will notice that the guy behind the counter at the liquor store is no longer afraid because in his hand is .45 that he has owned and shot for years, making him deadly accurate. Once WE get the rights WE need to protect OURSELVES from criminals, we will be more scary then the police departments. There are more law abiding citizens then there are LEOs and criminals combined. It is about education, and balls. We as a whole lack both. |
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Very nicely said OP! I agree 100% and know exactly how you feel.
If every law-abiding citizen reported criminal actions or actually did something about it.. it would go a very long way.. Salinas is real close to where I live. And I've heard of residents getting sick of the gang violence. But these scared mother ******s don't do **** about it. This is pretty much how America is now.. everyone wants a hand out and wants someone to wipe their a** for them. It's really sad, and I'm pissed at society for what it has become.
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"As long as we have faith in our own cause and an unconquerable will to win, victory will not be denied us." - Winston Churchill "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, 1790 |
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Reason has seldom failed us because it has seldom been tried Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion -- Edward Abbey |
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Who's to blame? Directly - the folks who run Oakland. Indirectly - the folks who voted for the folks who run Oakland. When the people who run Oakland are more concerned with controlling the police than allowing them to do their job, or pay great heed to community activists who prefer to rein in the police, they foster an environment which weakens the police and embolden the criminals. Make no mistake - most of the people who live in Oakland are decent and hardworking. The police make mistakes and must be accountable. But there is a difference between accountability and handicapping them. I think the police CAN do the job if they are allowed. I believe there were +160 murders in Oakland last year, about 90% involved a parolee as a victim or offender. In Alameda Cty last year there were fewer than 5 Officer involved shootings - where is the community outrage at the friends, brothers, uncles & dads killing & being killed by one another? Where are the community meetings addressing these folks killing one another? Where's the effort to address this by the elected officials? It's much easier to critique the police as an entity than the challenge of looking inward, at one's own community. Let the police enforce the law. Watch over them, but show more concern about catching and punishing offenders. And so far as criminal fearing only other criminals - why is that? Will the other criminal call the cops, call a local news station & rat them out? Nope, of corse not - there's a good chance they'll shoot them and that's why one criminal fears another. So loosen up on the CCW laws (again, elected officials and the people who elect them) and maybe the average person will become involved. Last edited by dfletcher; 03-27-2009 at 10:43 AM.. |
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