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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 07-01-2014, 7:53 PM
Jon Denver Jon Denver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSLguy View Post
Bull hockey. You folks are clueless as to how FFL's and SSE's work. Stop trying to make thosore complicated than it is. Rifle Gear and OC Firearms (and some others) do it correctly so we don't have issues with caliber on DROS. They also do it for only $40 extra for SSE. That is my whole point.

Bottom line? My San Berdoo CCW has an Xdm and XDS on it.
OC Firearms "used" to do it the correct way. I just bought a sig 229 elite dark, registered as a .25 caliber (it's a .40) now I have to fill out the stupid form to get it on my CCW.

I bought a 938 from OC Firearms and didn't have this issue. I guess I'm switching my business to 2A, at least I will save the 45 min drive.
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  #42  
Old 07-02-2014, 1:21 AM
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Talked to my FFL today and the form will allow you to register it as Semi Auto and in the current caliber its configured in. So for $19 u can remove the SSE verbage and fix caliber. Im good with this. (Well not good with the fact that no other state has to go through with this bs but good with the fact theres a fix we can do)
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  #43  
Old 07-02-2014, 6:45 AM
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We had a lot of people with SSE pistols in my San Bernardino CCW class, last year. A lot of S&W Shields way before the California models were available.

They do verify the calibers with your permit guns and mine weren't even SSE guns.
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  #44  
Old 07-03-2014, 6:22 PM
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I quickly glanced at the DOJ report during my interview but don't remember all the details on it.

I know the correct caliber matters for San Berandino, but does barrel length? The only reason I ask is I am looking at SSEing a new gun. I confirmed with the dealer they will use the correct corresponding caliber barrel, but I'm not sure how barrel length is recorded and if it even makes a difference.
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  #45  
Old 07-03-2014, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DMotivate View Post
I quickly glanced at the DOJ report during my interview but don't remember all the details on it.

I know the correct caliber matters for San Berandino, but does barrel length? The only reason I ask is I am looking at SSEing a new gun. I confirmed with the dealer they will use the correct corresponding caliber barrel, but I'm not sure how barrel length is recorded and if it even makes a difference.
My Sig 938 the barrel length was, 9.1 inches? The caliber was correct though. SB passed the 938 without one question.
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  #46  
Old 07-05-2014, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ElDub1950 View Post
Very interesting. This is only the 2nd report of an IA denying an SSE gun on CCW permits.
Well, not really, it was denied because of CALIBER not the SSE as he stated pretty clearly. Please re-read it before you get the wrong idea, repeat it in a forum, and it becomes infectiously viral.
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  #47  
Old 07-05-2014, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sky.Hawk View Post
Are we sure of this now - do we have confirmation from someone who has been through it from beginning (form submission) to end (listing on CCW)? How long does it take for a vol reg form to be processed by DOJ? Does it also fix the SSE problem that others are having? Thanks,
Also, how does one know when the the change has been entered into the DOJ database so the IA gets the correct caliber when they run the serial number for the CCW?
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  #48  
Old 07-05-2014, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Denver View Post
OC Firearms "used" to do it the correct way. I just bought a sig 229 elite dark, registered as a .25 caliber (it's a .40) now I have to fill out the stupid form to get it on my CCW.

I bought a 938 from OC Firearms and didn't have this issue. I guess I'm switching my business to 2A, at least I will save the 45 min drive.
If the FFL has to use a sub caliber barrel insert to meet the minimum barrel length required to complete the SSE, then it will be registered as a sub caliber pistol or the FFL is going to be in trouble. They cannot misstate facts on the paperwork. If it is configured as a single shot .25 when the DROS is submitted, then that is what they have to put on the paperwork.

For some (very popular) guns, a FFL will have a complete barrel assembly made up in the native caliber, for instance a 1911 is very popular and worth the investment to make up a complete and extra long barrel assembly in .45 as it can be used in many models from many manufacturers. Perhaps they had one made up for 938's when you bought that gun, but could not justify the price of having one made up for 229 considering the number they expected to be able to sell - so they just use a universal sub caliber insert that can be used in any .40 from any manufacturer.

But guns that have complex barrel assemblies or that are not as popular, are best done using a sub caliber barrel insert.

So I'd be careful about dragging some FFL under the bus for 'doing it wrong' - they are just following the law. Go try and SSE a PPK in the native caliber - let me know how it works out.

If the ATF or DOJ comes to do an audit and finds a gun being held in DROS that doesn't match the configuration the DROS was submitted for, the FFL could lose their license or worse. That is why the barrel must be rifled, must be able to actually fire, and it must remain in place for the entire period of the DROS from start to pickup - because they don't let you know beforehand they are showing up to audit you and they aren't going to give you a timeout so you can cover up any monkey business.
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  #49  
Old 07-05-2014, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
Well, not really, it was denied because of CALIBER not the SSE as he stated pretty clearly. Please re-read it before you get the wrong idea, repeat it in a forum, and it becomes infectiously viral.
Yes, that's technically correct, it was the caliber listed on the paperwork for an SSE gun. We're still waiting to see if the paperwork juggling to change the caliber resolves the issue.
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  #50  
Old 07-05-2014, 2:43 PM
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I was at OC Firearms earlier this week and I brought this very subject up. The long and short of it is whatever you qualify with is what your CCW instructor signs off on. In other words, if you DROS a P938 in .25 ACP with a 9.1 inch barrel with SSE, but qualified with a standard P938 in factory configuration, that's all the IA cares about as that's what goes on the permit. At least that's for OCSD.

If this was a concern down the road, I'm sure they would come up with an alternative as they're legit people and I'd be hard pressed to believe they'd be willing screw customers over in the short term just for a sale.

By no means am I an expert on this subject, though for those in the OC area who are concerned, take a trip to OC Firearms and talk to them. I was satisfied with the answers I received to the point I just jailed another pistol to put on my CCW.
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  #51  
Old 07-07-2014, 6:23 AM
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We appear to be arguing different points. As a customer ATF etc. Guidelines the shop needs to follow for SSE is not my business. I can understand the financial impact of having a barrel made for every application, what I cannot understand is not mentioning this to your customers.

That's not throwing anyone under the bus, thats a statement of what I believe, to be good customer service. The gun is 1,000.00 - 19.00 is not going to kill me, a little more communication on the shops end is not going to kill them either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky.Hawk View Post
If the FFL has to use a sub caliber barrel insert to meet the minimum barrel length required to complete the SSE, then it will be registered as a sub caliber pistol or the FFL is going to be in trouble. They cannot misstate facts on the paperwork. If it is configured as a single shot .25 when the DROS is submitted, then that is what they have to put on the paperwork.

For some (very popular) guns, a FFL will have a complete barrel assembly made up in the native caliber, for instance a 1911 is very popular and worth the investment to make up a complete and extra long barrel assembly in .45 as it can be used in many models from many manufacturers. Perhaps they had one made up for 938's when you bought that gun, but could not justify the price of having one made up for 229 considering the number they expected to be able to sell - so they just use a universal sub caliber insert that can be used in any .40 from any manufacturer.

But guns that have complex barrel assemblies or that are not as popular, are best done using a sub caliber barrel insert.

So I'd be careful about dragging some FFL under the bus for 'doing it wrong' - they are just following the law. Go try and SSE a PPK in the native caliber - let me know how it works out.

If the ATF or DOJ comes to do an audit and finds a gun being held in DROS that doesn't match the configuration the DROS was submitted for, the FFL could lose their license or worse. That is why the barrel must be rifled, must be able to actually fire, and it must remain in place for the entire period of the DROS from start to pickup - because they don't let you know beforehand they are showing up to audit you and they aren't going to give you a timeout so you can cover up any monkey business.
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  #52  
Old 07-07-2014, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Denver View Post
We appear to be arguing different points. As a customer ATF etc. Guidelines the shop needs to follow for SSE is not my business. I can understand the financial impact of having a barrel made for every application, what I cannot understand is not mentioning this to your customers.

That's not throwing anyone under the bus, thats a statement of what I believe, to be good customer service. The gun is 1,000.00 - 19.00 is not going to kill me, a little more communication on the shops end is not going to kill them either.
because until recently it wasn't known that some LEAs had issues with ".25acp" SSE'd firearms.

I look it as, I got the gun I wanted, it doesn't matter how the FFL was able to SSE it for me. If the LEA has an issue with it, then I'll spend the $19 to "fix" it. I saved more than $19 when the FFL used a universal kit so I'm still ahead.
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  #53  
Old 07-07-2014, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
because until recently it wasn't known that some LEAs had issues with ".25acp" SSE'd firearms.

I look it as, I got the gun I wanted, it doesn't matter how the FFL was able to SSE it for me. If the LEA has an issue with it, then I'll spend the $19 to "fix" it. I saved more than $19 when the FFL used a universal kit so I'm still ahead.
I paid the same SSE fee for the 938 as I did the 229. It's not that big of a deal. Am I a little aggravated that I have to jump a few more hoops? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No. Will I be pay more attention in the future? Yes. You can make the argument for 19.00 dollars I learned something new.

Last edited by Jon Denver; 07-07-2014 at 8:16 AM..
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  #54  
Old 07-07-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Corbon91 View Post
I recently purchased a Glock 30S from Riflegear and they SSE'd it in 22 not 45. Hope this won't affect my application in OC which is why I'm interested if filling out those forms will work if they deny my 30S on those grounds.

Same here recently bought a Glock 23 from rifle gear and on the DROS paperwork it's listed as a 25 instead of 40
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  #55  
Old 07-07-2014, 9:55 PM
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I had the same problem as Kel-Tec. My SSE Shield .40 was DROSed as "multi cal" by OC. The day I picked it up, I stopped at SBSO HQ to swap it with a fullsize 9, prior to my qual shoot.

Clerk ran my gun, and asked if I had just picked it up. I replied yes, and she said it was listed as multi cal. She walked me through the steps needed via DOJ to fix the issue. She did mention a possible backlog at DOJ of up to 6 months. Luckily, 3 weeks and $19. later, problem was solved.

My .02 for what its worth.
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  #56  
Old 07-16-2014, 5:39 PM
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I just drosd a g42 that says .25 cal on paperwork at riflegear and was reading this post to the guy working there and he was saying it only matters to the ia what you qualify with. Too much misinformation out there. It sounds like Ill just do the 19$ change so i dont have problems anyway just to be sure, the process is long enough without having issues
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  #57  
Old 07-16-2014, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tnlrat37 View Post
I just drosd a g42 that says .25 cal on paperwork at riflegear and was reading this post to the guy working there and he was saying it only matters to the ia what you qualify with. Too much misinformation out there. It sounds like Ill just do the 19$ change so i dont have problems anyway just to be sure, the process is long enough without having issues
Well we know that's not true. The first post specifically said the IA would not let him even list the gun on his form because it did not match. He can't qualify with it if they won't let him list it.
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  #58  
Old 07-16-2014, 9:13 PM
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^^^ that's what I tried to explain to the sales guy but he said what's the difference between sse and doing ur own conversion like 9mm to .22. I gave up and left, ill just pay the 19 and fill this out.
https://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

Question on here though. So I just fill out what the gun is now caliber .380 barrel length 3.25, semi auto, acquired from firearms dealer correct? And is firearm origin where I bought it or where it was made?
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  #59  
Old 07-21-2014, 6:42 AM
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Well I just checked with my bank and the DOJ cashed in my $19 check so at least they're processing my form. No confirmation as of yet.

Stay tuned.....
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  #60  
Old 07-21-2014, 8:08 AM
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Keep us updated on the BOF 4542A vol reg form, as I'm curious to know HOW LONG it'll take from start to finish.... from when you submitted the form, until it's been updated in the database.

Rather than waiting for something to come back in the mail, is there an easier way (even if it costs a few bucks) to have somebody run the DROS background on the firearm in question? That way you can find out right away whether the caliber has been updated correctly.
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  #61  
Old 07-27-2014, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Corbon91 View Post
Well I just checked with my bank and the DOJ cashed in my $19 check so at least they're processing my form. No confirmation as of yet.

Stay tuned.....
Same, my check was cashed 7/18. As of 7/27 nothing yet.

Mailed in on:
6/26/2014

Check cashed:
7/18/2014
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  #62  
Old 07-28-2014, 8:53 PM
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Two issues being discussed: One is multi-caliber listing on DROS. Based on comments it appears to be a problem with a known solution. The second which isn't being discussed is a SSE pistol being accepted by the county agency as the pistol isn't on the approved DOJ list. That is the root issue. Never mind the fact that the agency doesn't have authority to deny the pistol as said pistol CAN be purchased via PPT without being SSE'd. I have heard that some counties are consulting the DOJ list and balking at pistols not on the list.
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  #63  
Old 07-29-2014, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ROM1 View Post
Two issues being discussed: One is multi-caliber listing on DROS. Based on comments it appears to be a problem with a known solution. The second which isn't being discussed is a SSE pistol being accepted by the county agency as the pistol isn't on the approved DOJ list. That is the root issue. Never mind the fact that the agency doesn't have authority to deny the pistol as said pistol CAN be purchased via PPT without being SSE'd. I have heard that some counties are consulting the DOJ list and balking at pistols not on the list.
Eventually there will be no pistols on the list. Plenty of pistols that were formally on the list and which were bought from a dealer as is, are no longer on the list. Even pistols bought this year. LC9 and LC380 for instance. I don't see how any issuing agency could deny a pistol just because it is not currently on the list. If you got CCW from such an agency, and you go to renew in two years and your pistol is no longer on the list, then what? It seems a stretch to manage every possibility. If the pistol is legally owned and otherwise meets the agency requirements for function and caliber, that should be enough.
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  #64  
Old 07-30-2014, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kel-tec-innovations View Post
Same, my check was cashed 7/18. As of 7/27 nothing yet.

Mailed in on:
6/26/2014

Check cashed:
7/18/2014
7/29/2014

Went into to try to put my Sig P938 on the my list, but the DOJ hasn't changed anything yet according to their computers.

I told the clerk I mailed it in and they cashed my check over 10 days agao.

Clerk laughed "Its the DOJ" LOL

Government agencies always so efficient......
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  #65  
Old 07-30-2014, 10:21 AM
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from what I was told by my FFL, they said if you ended up having problems you can fill out the form already stated. but stated you can add multiple guns on the form. so if you're one of those with multiple SSE in queue you can save by waiting until the end of the year and pay $19 to convert all the handguns you listed as .25 and just do it once.
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  #66  
Old 07-30-2014, 8:11 PM
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I'm looking for an actual confirmation from someone who completed form BOF 4542A and submitted it with results.
I bought a 9mm SSE from OC Firearms recently and my DROS states .25 caliber.
I'm planning on submitting form as handgun/semi-automatic/9mm/4.01in barrel/Acquired from Firearms Dealer
Anyone see anything wrong with this?^

Last edited by Piracy; 07-30-2014 at 8:17 PM..
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  #67  
Old 07-30-2014, 9:10 PM
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I'm really glad that my shop doesn't use inserts on the SSE models. Each pistol can fire the designed caliber the pistol was made for. The insert method seems to undermine the shop credibility, at least to me and causes headaches down the road for the owner. Why not just get it done right the first time and avoid the multicaliber issue from the start? That is a rhetorical question. I understand the economics of having the proper barrels and calibers for SSE pistols can be expensive. I'd say if you intend to list a SSE pistol on a CCW permit it would be best to avoid this entire multicaliber issue from the beginning and that rests solely on the shoulders of the buyer. Find a shop that does it "right" from the beginning. If you don't plan to list the pistol on a CCW then is this an issue?
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  #68  
Old 08-03-2014, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tnlrat37 View Post
^^^ that's what I tried to explain to the sales guy but he said what's the difference between sse and doing ur own conversion like 9mm to .22. I gave up and left, ill just pay the 19 and fill this out.
https://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf

Question on here though. So I just fill out what the gun is now caliber .380 barrel length 3.25, semi auto, acquired from firearms dealer correct? And is firearm origin where I bought it or where it was made?
That's an older version of the form and states $19 per firearm.

The newer version was posted early in the thread, with a single $19 fee for multiple firearms.

Surprised they actually reduced the fee. Someone must've made a mistake.
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  #69  
Old 08-08-2014, 1:59 PM
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Fyi, sent in my form on 7/21, got it back from kamala today, with my uncashed check. "Pursuant to penal code section 28000, your submission submission does not meet the requirement for use of this form. The firearm ownership form is to be used when a firearm transaction was not conducted through a licensed firearms dealer.."
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  #70  
Old 08-08-2014, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Daydrmr999 View Post
Fyi, sent in my form on 7/21, got it back from kamala today, with my uncashed check. "Pursuant to penal code section 28000, your submission submission does not meet the requirement for use of this form. The firearm ownership form is to be used when a firearm transaction was not conducted through a licensed firearms dealer.."
Well, that's an unexpected twist on everything in this thread! I assume you're talking about the same form everyone referenced above.

Very interested in seeing everyone else's results.
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  #71  
Old 08-08-2014, 2:47 PM
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DOJ-SoBs

Yes, use of the VolReg form is incorrect unless the buyer is exempt and did not go through a dealer per PC 27545. So it appears they will not accept any SSE pistol now. All the more reason FFLs need proper caliber inserts.
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  #72  
Old 08-08-2014, 3:03 PM
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I guess that leaves intrafamilial oplaw to and from a parent/grandparent to 'clean' the database?

To bad spouses can't use that exemption
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  #73  
Old 08-08-2014, 3:35 PM
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Well, that's an unexpected twist on everything in this thread! I assume you're talking about the same form everyone referenced above.

Very interested in seeing everyone else's results.
Yes same form linked in this thread...

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  #74  
Old 08-08-2014, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Daydrmr999 View Post
Fyi, sent in my form on 7/21, got it back from kamala today, with my uncashed check. "Pursuant to penal code section 28000, your submission submission does not meet the requirement for use of this form. The firearm ownership form is to be used when a firearm transaction was not conducted through a licensed firearms dealer.."
The 'transaction' was when you modified your handgun from 25 cal to 45 acp cal; thus a FFL was not involved to produce the current caliber/capacity of the gun.

No?
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Old 08-08-2014, 9:13 PM
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Take your pistol into FFL for consignment sale. If you change your mind after a few days and decide not to sell, the FFL has to DROS it back to you and it doesn't have to be SSE. (?). Strategery.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
I guess that leaves intrafamilial oplaw to and from a parent/grandparent to 'clean' the database?

To bad spouses can't use that exemption
I've always thought you can gift and transfer to spouse as I read it on the calwiki. Is this not the case?
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:17 AM
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I've always thought you can gift and transfer to spouse as I read it on the calwiki. Is this not the case?
That was my understanding as well - I'd love to hear the specifics if something has changed or if it is not the case that OPLAW can be used to transfer / gift firearms to a spouse.
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Old 08-09-2014, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sky.Hawk View Post
Take your pistol into FFL for consignment sale. If you change your mind after a few days and decide not to sell, the FFL has to DROS it back to you and it doesn't have to be SSE. (?). Strategery.
is it not still your pistol while on consignment?... I like this idea - but an unsure of the pistol status while waiting to be sold.
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Old 08-09-2014, 3:43 PM
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is it not still your pistol while on consignment?... I like this idea - but an unsure of the pistol status while waiting to be sold.
It is still your property while on consignment, but the law says it must be DROSd back to you - cause for the children, .ca.gov thinks you may have become a axe murderer for the week your pistol was on sale. And let's face it, not many people will pay $999 for an LCP on consignment but that shouldn't stop you from asking for top dollar

Last edited by SkyHawk; 08-09-2014 at 3:46 PM..
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Old 08-09-2014, 3:48 PM
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It is still your property while on consignment, but the law says it must be DROSd back to you - cause for the children, .ca.gov thinks you may have become a axe murderer for the week your pistol was on sale.
nice ninja edit... I was responding to the previous and you snuck in the edit before I posted

since consignment is re-DROS'd, this seems like a good cleanse... thanks

ETA: holly multi-nija-edit!!! you added upon the add

Last edited by LBDamned; 08-09-2014 at 3:52 PM..
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