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  #281  
Old 05-29-2018, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by warbird View Post
Stryeback is right and while we all debate something we can't control no organization is organizing a public ad campaign to tell people exactly how bad it is for gun owners now and how bad it will get in the future for everyone to the point no one will be able to legally own a gun. I see all sorts of organizations whining about the state we are in but not one is doing any advertising on the airways. Yet it is all supposed to be about the court cases that are going against us, due to in my personal opinion, the unfair courts and attorneys who more interested in their fees than in helping us. start a revolution or is that what the establishment on both sides of this fight are afraid of. that if the public gets fighting mad then there will be blood shed when they realize how betrayed they have been by both sides. where are the radio, television, and internet campaigns by the NRA, CRPA, and others? All i hear is whining on this site.

good point. while i don't have cable and therefore don't watch regular TV, i can't remember ever seeing pro-gun TV commercials, let along a full blown campaign, even when i did have cable.
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  #282  
Old 05-29-2018, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by troyPhD View Post
Or keep the upper and lower separate, as the DOJ regs now state when separated, but both upper and lower still in owner's possession, doesn't constitute a semi-auto. Not being semi-auto automatically disqualifies the separated receivers from AW status.

That's what I've been doing. Hope it actually provides real legal protection.

Perfect, then everyone go get 2 gun safes. Place all the uppers in one and all the lowers in the other. Now you're all legal.
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  #283  
Old 05-29-2018, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by warbird View Post
Stryeback is right and while we all debate something we can't control no organization is organizing a public ad campaign to tell people exactly how bad it is for gun owners now and how bad it will get in the future for everyone to the point no one will be able to legally own a gun. I see all sorts of organizations whining about the state we are in but not one is doing any advertising on the airways. Yet it is all supposed to be about the court cases that are going against us, due to in my personal opinion, the unfair courts and attorneys who more interested in their fees than in helping us. start a revolution or is that what the establishment on both sides of this fight are afraid of. that if the public gets fighting mad then there will be blood shed when they realize how betrayed they have been by both sides. where are the radio, television, and internet campaigns by the NRA, CRPA, and others? All i hear is whining on this site.
Exactly that.

But a lot more worrisome is the lack of outreach to the owners of the soon to be outlawed BBAWs. I know several, and NOT A SINGLE ONE knew that they were about to become felons on July 1 until I told them about these new laws.

The state isn't going to reach out to these owners, because it wants to entrap as many as possible, but where is the outreach to the unconnected on our side? Word of mouth works, but not as well as a radio spot, TV ad, or bill board.
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  #284  
Old 05-29-2018, 8:06 AM
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i am doing word of mouth in my area and people know me, for better or worse, but that is not going to stop this onslaught of unfair laws that will send a lot of innocent people to jail, destroy families, and cost jobs simply because some cop or prosecutor wants a conviction to look good on their record for reelection. if a group comes up with an ad campaign to get the word out then we should support them with money and time and invest in our rights. But it is not going to happen from the old organizations and that is a shame.
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  #285  
Old 05-29-2018, 8:10 AM
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he is a member of calguns
his posts suggest he had a decent enough understanding of the gun laws (he registered and also listed for sale post 2017 compliant AR10 pistol
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  #286  
Old 05-29-2018, 8:18 AM
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he is a member of calguns
his posts suggest he had a decent enough understanding of the gun laws (he registered and also listed for sale post 2017 compliant AR10 pistol
Yeah, and he still got caught in the murkyness of these truly messed up laws and regs. But what about the uniformed who bought their rifle years ago. Those are the ones the state will target and persecute, and the big money orgs on our side seem to be doing nothing to get them up to speed.
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  #287  
Old 05-29-2018, 4:16 PM
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I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread; it's helped my understanding of potential violations.
A hypothetical question; what if the farmer had had everything seperated and disassembled? Uppers and lowers seperated, charging handles and bolts out, maybe even triggers removed?
I guess that probably wouldn't make any difference with the lack of bullet buttons on some rifles (or would it?), and it most likely wouldn't help with the possession of the suppressors, but maybe it would reduce the severity of everything else?
Any thoughts from you experts? Just a hypothetical notion.
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  #288  
Old 05-29-2018, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by navin r View Post
I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread; it's helped my understanding of potential violations.
A hypothetical question; what if the farmer had had everything seperated and disassembled? Uppers and lowers seperated, charging handles and bolts out, maybe even triggers removed?
I guess that probably wouldn't make any difference with the lack of bullet buttons on some rifles (or would it?), and it most likely wouldn't help with the possession of the suppressors, but maybe it would reduce the severity of everything else?
Any thoughts from you experts? Just a hypothetical notion.
then he likely wouldn't have been charged with the possession of the 9 assault weapons.. he likely would have still been charged with the suppressors, MBTA, and possibly manufacturing in regards to the AR pistol he submitted a photo of.
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  #289  
Old 05-29-2018, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by navin r View Post
A hypothetical question; what if the farmer had had everything seperated and disassembled? Uppers and lowers seperated, charging handles and bolts out, maybe even triggers removed?
Wouldn't affect the charges for the 2 cans and for the slidefire. But according to the DOJ regs, as long as the upper and lower are completely disconnected, a firearm is not an assault weapon. No need to disassemble charging handles, BCGs, triggers. According to DOJ regs, you can have a safe full of 100 free state uppers with 100 free state lowers, and so long as they are detached, you are fine.
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  #290  
Old 05-29-2018, 4:50 PM
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8 pages of speculation?
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  #291  
Old 05-29-2018, 7:22 PM
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No. 7.275 as of this post.
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  #292  
Old 05-31-2018, 8:40 PM
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Bummer
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  #293  
Old 05-31-2018, 8:47 PM
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In a perfect Red Bluff World Scott would be sleeping soundly tonight but in the ****ed up world that is our California Reality Scott done screwed the pooch.
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  #294  
Old 05-31-2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
Wouldn't affect the charges for the 2 cans and for the slidefire. But according to the DOJ regs, as long as the upper and lower are completely disconnected, a firearm is not an assault weapon. No need to disassemble charging handles, BCGs, triggers. According to DOJ regs, you can have a safe full of 100 free state uppers with 100 free state lowers, and so long as they are detached, you are fine.
This makes sense, when it's completely separated. Pardon my ignorance but on #9, it was stated that when the upper was separated from the lower (and pivoted on the front takedown pin, I assume), it became an AW. Does that mean that whenever reloading is performed with the fixed magazine solutions that reload by cracking the upper away from the lower (Hogue Freedom Fighter, JT Hellfighter, etc.) that an AW is created?
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  #295  
Old 05-31-2018, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Thebicyclecafe View Post
This makes sense, when it's completely separated. Pardon my ignorance but on #9, it was stated that when the upper was separated from the lower (and pivoted on the front takedown pin, I assume), it became an AW. Does that mean that whenever reloading is performed with the fixed magazine solutions that reload by cracking the upper away from the lower (Hogue Freedom Fighter, JT Hellfighter, etc.) that an AW is created?
In my view, it was a misinterpretation of the regs by the DOJ agent. The DA seemed to have agreed, since she didn't bring a charge based on that.
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  #296  
Old 05-31-2018, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
In my view, it was a misinterpretation of the regs by the DOJ agent. The DA seemed to have agreed, since she didn't bring a charge based on that.
The DA dropped the charges for the 2017-compliant rifles?
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  #297  
Old 05-31-2018, 11:05 PM
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The case is built on a search warrant for what turned out to be a compliant pistol. I keep a magazine in all my guns all the time, mostly because I don't forget magazines when I go shooting.😎
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  #298  
Old 06-01-2018, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
The DA dropped the charges for the 2017-compliant rifles?
No. There were two AR pistols seized. One was a Noveske, apparently without a bullet button or other compliance device. A charge was brought for that one, and has not been dropped. The other was the Sun Devil that was the putative cause of the search warrant (it was the one in the pawn return, originally purchased by ex-wife, attempted registration that called DOJ attention.)

By the time that the raid happened, the Sun Devil appeared to have some sort of post-2016 compliance device. The DOJ agent screwed around with it as described in #9 in the OP and determined it was an AW. The DA never brought any charge related to the Sun Devil pistol.

Further, no charges were brought regarding any 2017-compliant rifles. The 9 AW possession charges are for possessing 8 rifles and 1 pistol, each of which had one or more evil features and no BB or other compliance device.
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  #299  
Old 06-01-2018, 5:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebicyclecafe View Post
This makes sense, when it's completely separated. Pardon my ignorance but on #9, it was stated that when the upper was separated from the lower (and pivoted on the front takedown pin, I assume), it became an AW. Does that mean that whenever reloading is performed with the fixed magazine solutions that reload by cracking the upper away from the lower (Hogue Freedom Fighter, JT Hellfighter, etc.) that an AW is created?
Per the story, that weapon was not ultimately charged as an AW. I think the agents and/or DA realized the flaw in their logic, that just because THEY could take it apart and make it an AW, doesn't make it an AW.
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  #300  
Old 06-01-2018, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Per the story, that weapon was not ultimately charged as an AW. I think the agents and/or DA realized the flaw in their logic, that just because THEY could take it apart and make it an AW, doesn't make it an AW.
Also, I don't think Frausto actually made it an assault weapon either. He just thought he did.
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  #301  
Old 06-01-2018, 7:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebicyclecafe View Post
This makes sense, when it's completely separated. Pardon my ignorance but on #9, it was stated that when the upper was separated from the lower (and pivoted on the front takedown pin, I assume), it became an AW. Does that mean that whenever reloading is performed with the fixed magazine solutions that reload by cracking the upper away from the lower (Hogue Freedom Fighter, JT Hellfighter, etc.) that an AW is created?
I think the reasoning is that one should never close the halves without first inserting a magazine, because if one does so, the result is a semiauto that can accept a magazine. As long as it's always closed with a mag installed it's not an AW.

At worst it looks like the officer manufactured an AW on the spot when he failed to perform the mag change properly.
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  #302  
Old 06-01-2018, 8:44 AM
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An east coast YouTube channel made a video about this but doesn’t explain much detail
https://youtu.be/T2obYB-roiA
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  #303  
Old 06-01-2018, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
I think the reasoning is that one should never close the halves without first inserting a magazine, because if one does so, the result is a semiauto that can accept a magazine. As long as it's always closed with a mag installed it's not an AW.

At worst it looks like the officer manufactured an AW on the spot when he failed to perform the mag change properly.
I've heard that before and interpreted the law as referring to the detachability of the magazine, vs the attachability. Clear as mud, I suppose. Even though there was no legal test for the post 2016 mag lock device, there is some signaling from that DA's office that it would be difficult to prosecute that charge (perhaps with the realization that if DOJ tried that charge and lost, it would immediately set a precedent or implied compliance). I know many of us were hoping for a test case on the new compliance devices but I assume that with the charges being dropped there is some reassurance.
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  #304  
Old 06-01-2018, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebicyclecafe View Post
I've heard that before and interpreted the law as referring to the detachability of the magazine, vs the attachability. Clear as mud, I suppose. Even though there was no legal test for the post 2016 mag lock device, there is some signaling from that DA's office that it would be difficult to prosecute that charge (perhaps with the realization that if DOJ tried that charge and lost, it would immediately set a precedent or implied compliance). I know many of us were hoping for a test case on the new compliance devices but I assume that with the charges being dropped there is some reassurance.
I really wish this numbskull hadn't owned a bunch of silencers. The bumpfire stock isn't ideal but actual prohibited (in CA) NFA items .... dude WTH was he thinking?
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  #305  
Old 06-01-2018, 11:03 AM
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12 felony charges

Here is an article
https://www.themaven.net/bluelivesma...0eSpeNnNm6PCw/
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  #306  
Old 06-01-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
I really wish this numbskull hadn't owned a bunch of silencers. The bumpfire stock isn't ideal but actual prohibited (in CA) NFA items .... dude WTH was he thinking?
To be fair, he probably didn't expect DOJ agents to barge into his home and make him open his hidden gun room vault. Before these recent events started occuring, why would anyone have expected that?

With that in mind, since we NOW know that DOJ is raiding people (for sometimes no apparent reason), it would be nuts for anyone to keep contraband in their homes until this all blows over.
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Old 06-01-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
To be fair, he probably didn't expect DOJ agents to barge into his home and make him open his hidden gun room vault. Before these recent events started occuring, why would anyone have expected that?

With that in mind, since we NOW know that DOJ is raiding people (for sometimes no apparent reason), it would be nuts for anyone to keep contraband in their homes until this all blows over.
I can't imagine a scenario that would motivate me to keep indefensible contraband in my home. I always assumed most people are like this. Maybe not, I dunno.
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Old 06-01-2018, 11:33 AM
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As much as I diagree with many of California’s gun laws, I obey them.
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Old 06-01-2018, 11:39 AM
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I can't imagine a scenario that would motivate me to keep indefensible contraband in my home. I always assumed most people are like this. Maybe not, I dunno.
I'd bet most people have something they aren't supposed to. I mean, how many "preban" magazines could there possibly be here? They've been illegal to buy in CA for 24 years, yet most people seem to have lots of them.

Not saying it's right or wrong, just saying more people have contraband than you probably think. There's a good chance you do too, perhaps without even realizing it.

I try my best not to have contraband at home, and I'm pretty sure I don't, but with CA's massive quantity of laws, who the hell knows.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-01-2018 at 11:42 AM..
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  #310  
Old 06-01-2018, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I'd bet most people have something they aren't supposed to. I mean, how many "preban" magazines could there possibly be here? They've been illegal to buy in CA for 24 years, yet most people seem to have lots of them.

Not saying it's right or wrong, just saying more people have contraband than you probably think. There's a good chance you do too, perhaps without even realizing it.

I try my best not to have contraband at home, and I'm pretty sure I don't, but with CA's massive quantity of laws, who the hell knows.
Pre-ban magazines are not currently contraband in CA.
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Old 06-01-2018, 1:18 PM
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Pre-ban magazines are not currently contraband in CA.
I know, that wasn't my point.

My point was that everyone and their dog claims to have many of them, despite being impossible to legally acquire for the last quarter century. So most (almost all?) Of them are likely not actual preban mags, but rather "preban" mags, wink wink.

Not that I have a problem with people doing that - I don't. Just making the point that most people do have contraband of some sort in their homes, whether gun-related or otherwise.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 06-01-2018 at 1:21 PM..
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  #312  
Old 06-01-2018, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I know, that wasn't my point.

My point was that everyone and their dog claims to have many of them, despite being impossible to legally acquire for the last quarter century. So most (almost all?) Of them are likely not actual preban mags, but rather "preban" mags, wink wink.

Not that I have a problem with people doing that - I don't. Just making the point that most people do have contraband of some sort in their homes, whether gun-related or otherwise.
Or people who built AR pistols out of an 80% but can’t explain the SSE process they used, no longer own the parts they used, and are unable to locate any record indicating purchase of those parts or sale of those parts.
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Old 06-01-2018, 2:54 PM
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Two cans with ATF paperwork. Were they legal?
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Old 06-01-2018, 3:34 PM
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Two cans with ATF paperwork. Were they legal?
Not in California.
Not legal to possess in California.
Must notify BATFE when relocated to a different state (address?)
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Old 06-01-2018, 3:35 PM
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Two cans with ATF paperwork. Were they legal?
Federally, it would seem so.

CA though, felony prohibition.

Should have kept them in a safe-deposit box in Nevada.
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Old 06-01-2018, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
I'd bet most people have something they aren't supposed to. I mean, how many "preban" magazines could there possibly be here? They've been illegal to buy in CA for 24 years, yet most people seem to have lots of them.
I thought they were illegal to almost everything except buy - buy wasn't in the law until recently changed or did I imagine this? In any case all my mags are 10 or less in CA.
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Old 06-01-2018, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
To be fair, he probably didn't expect DOJ agents to barge into his home and make him open his hidden gun room vault. Before these recent events started occuring, why would anyone have expected that?

With that in mind, since we NOW know that DOJ is raiding people (for sometimes no apparent reason), it would be nuts for anyone to keep contraband in their homes until this all blows over.
From other incidents posted, DOJ just showed up, ask to see the offending weapon (one submitted) confiscate it, and left. No searching and no warrant, owner gets a recipe and no charges filed. In this case warrant filed, house searched, actively looking for other offending items, resulting in other items found beyond the original submitted weapon, arrested, and charges filed.

Really begs the question did farmer told DOJ to take a hike, get a warrant on the first day? Maybe the advise to always request a warrant is backfiring this time. Specifically more to the recent traffic accident case, DOJ had indicated if they had gotten a warrant, they would had made an arrest. Hum....
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Old 06-01-2018, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
I thought they were illegal to almost everything except buy - buy wasn't in the law until recently changed or did I imagine this? In any case all my mags are 10 or less in CA.
There were some "revisions" when the PC was renumbered and updated in 2012.
Among those were the added possibility of confiscation as a public nuisance, as well as "acquisition" being added to the list of verboten verbs.
Previous to this, they specifically mentioned all avenues of acquisition short of "finding" in that they prohibited giving, lending, manufacturing, importing, sale, or offer for sale.
There was no legal way to acquire them other than finding them, and other laws apply to "found property" depending on the value, and given that a large capacity magazine is virtually priceless in California, there are still issues.

There is also a 36 month statute of limitations, so there's also the issue of the inability to prosecute not only with evidence of unlawful (one of the above), but also evidence that this took place within the last 3 years.
The new law bans outright possession, but it is in suspense due to the constitutional question of there being no path for compensation (and we can't legally offer to sell them).

So even with lack of evidence that said magazines were (one of the above) within the last 3 years, they would still be subject to confiscation as a public nuisance, and I don't know whether them being legitimately possessed pre-2000 exempts them from this.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 06-01-2018, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by walmart_ar15 View Post
From other incidents posted, DOJ just showed up, ask to see the offending weapon (one submitted) confiscate it, and left. No searching and no warrant, owner gets a recipe and no charges filed.
Lack of an arrest or charges filed at that time does not preclude the DA from filing charges at some later date.
If you are the subject of one of these raids and they leave with anything belonging to you or another occupant of the residence, it is wise to lawyer up immediately. They CAN charge you with AW possession if they confiscate what is determined to be an AW, regardless of who it belongs to.
For those with roomies, or BF/GF/Spouse who is also into the sport, please make sure that THEY are 100% legal or it could come down on you if you have access to their guns.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 06-01-2018, 4:58 PM
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Not in California.
Not legal to possess in California.
Must notify BATFE when relocated to a different state (address?)
Well then it was foolish to have them.

Even if he dodges all the rifle charges he will have a tough row to hoe.
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