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  #161  
Old 05-24-2018, 8:15 PM
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^^^^
And there you have it
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  #162  
Old 05-24-2018, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
It was originally sold as a pistol in 2013.
He wanted to pawn/return to get it into his own name... IF it was equipped with a bullet button, the only way to do that (to transfer into his name) would be as a frame only since the original configuration became non-transferable in 2017.

But since it was transferred as a pistol frame, it would have been legal to reassemble it into a non-AW form.


From the description, it absolutely appears that he had some kind of compliance device, whether DFM or Freedom Fighter, otherwise the agent would have simply dropped the magazine with the upper closed.
The next question is, WHY was he attempting to register these as BBAW, unless he intended to make them compliant for 2017, then return to BB status after receiving his paperwork... in that case, why not just drop in a DFM with a bullet button installed?

This new information raises more questions than it answers.
pawn return to get it into his name or to avoid it being part of the divorce proceedings...hmmmm, no you honor, I don't own any guns anymore...
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  #163  
Old 05-24-2018, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Maybe with this case, we'll finally get to learn under what legal authority DOJ is claiming that his 9 AWs can't have normal mag releases during the registration window. The only thing that says he can't is DOJ's own regulation that they invented for a penal code that doesn't exist... So that should be interesting.
Yep thought this from the beginning... The laws are so convoluted, nobody except those of us who are glued to CGN can comprehend them.

As far as all the comments on the lower. We don’t know that his wife didn’t DROS it as a pistol via PPT or intrafamilial from out of state. And when he pawned it, where does it say that it was a bare stripped receiver? If I were going to Pawn a receiver for name transfer purposes, I’d pull the most expensive part off (upper and optics) so that I don’t risk damage or even theft. Therefore, the BB may have very well still been on it the entire time as a completed lower, minus the upper.

Also, I might add that these agents obviously have the facts mixed as to what a mag release is if they deemed the original pistol to be an AW after removing the magazine. They could be qualifying the rifles in this same category even though they may be configured with BB2.0, franklin mag, etc. It’s obvious they are not 100% on top of the laws. He’ll get offered a plea deal on the suppressors, and likely get much of it thrown out. He needs to advise his lawyer to come to CGN for some info and knowledge though. I think many folks here have good points that can be used in court to help turn this upside down.
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  #164  
Old 05-24-2018, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmContagion View Post
Yep thought this from the beginning... The laws are so convoluted, nobody except those of us who are glued to CGN can comprehend them.

As far as all the comments on the lower. We don’t know that his wife didn’t DROS it as a pistol via PPT or intrafamilial from out of state. And when he pawned it, where does it say that it was a bare stripped receiver? If I were going to Pawn a receiver for name transfer purposes, I’d pull the most expensive part off (upper and optics) so that I don’t risk damage or even theft. Therefore, the BB may have very well still been on it the entire time as a completed lower, minus the upper.

Also, I might add that these agents obviously have the facts mixed as to what a mag release is if they deemed the original pistol to be an AW after removing the magazine. They could be qualifying the rifles in this same category even though they may be configured with BB2.0, franklin mag, etc. It’s obvious they are not 100% on top of the laws. He’ll get offered a plea deal on the suppressors, and likely get much of it thrown out. He needs to advise his lawyer to come to CGN for some info and knowledge though. I think many folks here have good points that can be used in court to help turn this upside down.
Great post, I agree with all that and I'll add that even those of us who are glued to CGN don't fully understand all the laws. I know about as much as anyone could about it, and I still feel like I don't really have a firm grasp on all the laws. I don't even think the authors of the laws really understand everything they wrote.
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  #165  
Old 05-24-2018, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Great post, I agree with all that and I'll add that even those of us who are glued to CGN don't fully understand all the laws. I know about as much as anyone could about it, and I still feel like I don't really have a firm grasp on all the laws. I don't even think the authors of the laws really understand everything they wrote.
The authors definitely don't have a grasp on it. The authors of laws many times haven't a clue.

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  #166  
Old 05-24-2018, 9:20 PM
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The authors definitely don't have a grasp on it. The authors of laws many times haven't a clue.

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Most of the time, the laws aren't even written by the "authors", but rather are hastily put together by the Brady campaign and forwarded to a willing lawmaker.
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  #167  
Old 05-24-2018, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Great post, I agree with all that and I'll add that even those of us who are glued to CGN don't fully understand all the laws. I know about as much as anyone could about it, and I still feel like I don't really have a firm grasp on all the laws. I don't even think the authors of the laws really understand everything they wrote.
Agree. Every time I think I have a grasp of these convoluted laws, I find out I didn't. I fear not being in compliance even though I try my best. It wouldn't surprise me even if Librarian is proven wrong every now and then, despite his best efforts on staying abreast of the laws.
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  #168  
Old 05-24-2018, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Agree. Every time I think I have a grasp of these convoluted laws, I find out I didn't. I fear not being in compliance even though I try my best. It wouldn't surprise me even if Librarian is proven wrong every now and then, despite his best efforts on staying abreast of the laws.
Librarian is rarely (never?) wrong in what he says, as he is VERY careful not to give advice he is not 100% sure about, which is something I'm still working on. But like the rest of us, there are matters that even he isn't completely sure about and is cautious to give his opinion about. He's only human... Or is he :tfh:
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  #169  
Old 05-25-2018, 1:59 AM
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So if you have a DFM mag, ARMaglock or the others, LEO can come and disassemble the action, remove the mag, then reassemble and put a mag in and say you have an AW?

Or do I understand correctly that the firearm from that instance did not cause any issues based on the mag mechanism?
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  #170  
Old 05-25-2018, 2:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous_Ghost View Post
Sounds like this fella is up the creek without a paddle. Funny how everyone was so quick to condemn the agents and suggest it was all trumped up. Prosecutorial discretion is one thing, selective enforcement of the law is an entirely different matter and should be of concern to every citizen and will be seen as an abuse of authority and looks bad for the officer and/or the agency.
Everything mentioned is 100% legal outside of CA borders. That's the main issue to me. Stop following laws that are unconstitutional, people.
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  #171  
Old 05-25-2018, 3:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CMBrowning View Post
Everything mentioned is 100% legal outside of CA borders. That's the main issue to me. Stop following laws that are unconstitutional, people.
Coming from a Montana resident Take your advice and end up the topic of another thread EXACTLY like this?!

Unfortunately, unless we are willing to lose all 2A rights, we must conform to one extent or another. IE BB2.0, Franklin Mag, featureless, etc. I will however agree, that what brought this all on the farmer, is the wrong way to comply....
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  #172  
Old 05-25-2018, 3:27 AM
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Even though I hate the laws here, beauty of what's left of our republic is that we can still move to a different state. Unfortunately for me it'll still be a few years before I could potentially move and be able to maintain similar employment. The flip side is that I live in a very rural area and it's relatively relaxed as far as enforcement on all levels.
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  #173  
Old 05-25-2018, 5:00 AM
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Originally Posted by CMBrowning View Post
Everything mentioned is 100% legal outside of CA borders. That's the main issue to me. Stop following laws that are unconstitutional, people.

In the big scheme of things, you can't help but wonder if he wasn't way better off not registering anything. Just kept his stuff quietly and go about his business.


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  #174  
Old 05-25-2018, 7:01 AM
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I just keep all the 'good stuff' in a safe that's located outside CA, poised for my eventual exit from this cesspool.
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  #175  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:28 AM
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Really don't want to feed the troll, but when gun owners say law-abiding, they mean people who pay their taxes, don't kill, don't steal, don't sell drugs, go to work, etc. not "people who follow every stupid law in existence."
I'm not trolling. That's always what people say when they have no legitimate retort. The bold proves my point exactly. You should look up the definition, you seemed to be confused. You'd be better off using the often used law enforcement moniker of "good guy" so that everyone who doesn't fit your mold of what a citizen should be can be labeled a "bad guy". It will cause less confusion. Fact still remains that you want it both ways and simply can't admit it and calling me a troll or implying I'm a nazi/boolicker is just a way to deflect.
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  #176  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:30 AM
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Originally Posted by CMBrowning View Post
Everything mentioned is 100% legal outside of CA borders. That's the main issue to me. Stop following laws that are unconstitutional, people.
That is the reason why the NRA needs to offer the guy a team of lawyers and fight it all the way.
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  #177  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:35 AM
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.... calling me a troll or implying I'm a nazi/boolicker is just a way to deflect.
Two things can be true at the same time; he may be trying to deflect AND you might be a statist bootlicker.
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  #178  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CMBrowning View Post
Everything mentioned is 100% legal outside of CA borders. That's the main issue to me. Stop following laws that are unconstitutional, people.
Exactly! Abide, be an outlaw, or move. Pretty simple but people choose to make it hard. That is not to say that trying to change things isn't suggested. Just dealing with the reality of the situation is what I'm referring to. The real truth is that some want to continue to wear their "little ol law abiding me" badges of pride while also being outlaws when they deem fit. Doesn't work that way in the real world and it may be hard for some to swallow.
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  #179  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous_Ghost View Post
I'm not trolling. That's always what people say when they have no legitimate retort. The bold proves my point exactly. You should look up the definition, you seemed to be confused. You'd be better off using the often used law enforcement moniker of "good guy" so that everyone who doesn't fit your mold of what a citizen should be can be labeled a "bad guy". It will cause less confusion. Fact still remains that you want it both ways and simply can't admit it and calling me a troll or implying I'm a nazi/boolicker is just a way to deflect.
I can guarantee that if law enforcement wants to nail anyone, they can. That includes you.

There's not a soul alive that isn't breaking laws of some sort unknowingly. Read the quote from Ayn Rand in this thread. It explains it as well as anyone could. You might think you're law abiding, but you aren't.

When everyone alive is breaking laws of some sort, our laws and government have failed.
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  #180  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous_Ghost View Post
I'm not trolling. That's always what people say when they have no legitimate retort. The bold proves my point exactly. You should look up the definition, you seemed to be confused. You'd be better off using the often used law enforcement moniker of "good guy" so that everyone who doesn't fit your mold of what a citizen should be can be labeled a "bad guy". It will cause less confusion. Fact still remains that you want it both ways and simply can't admit it and calling me a troll or implying I'm a nazi/boolicker is just a way to deflect.
Someone would only want it both ways if they wanted you to follow one unconstitutional law while they ignored and didn't follow another unconstitutional law.
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  #181  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:44 AM
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Two things can be true at the same time; he may be trying to deflect AND you might be a statist bootlicker.
Theoretically possible, I'll give you that.
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  #182  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:49 AM
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Exactly! Abide, be an outlaw, or move. Pretty simple but people choose to make it hard. That is not to say that trying to change things isn't suggested. Just dealing with the reality of the situation is what I'm referring to. The real truth is that some want to continue to wear their "little ol law abiding me" badges of pride while also being outlaws when they deem fit. Doesn't work that way in the real world and it may be hard for some to swallow.
Abide the outlaw's law? Would that make someone a law abiding outlaw?
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  #183  
Old 05-25-2018, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
I can guarantee that if law enforcement wants to nail anyone, they can. That includes you.

There's not a soul alive that isn't breaking laws of some sort unknowingly. Read the quote from Ayn Rand in this thread. It explains it as well as anyone could. You might think you're law abiding, but you aren't.

When everyone alive is breaking laws of some sort, our laws and government have failed.
I'm fully aware of this fact and hate to be hassled even more than the next fella, believe me; although, I don't try and pretend I'm just a "little ol law abiding citizen" who is morally righteous and above reproach. I'm not in denial about my choices. I don't see being a "liitle ol law abiding citizen" as a defense like many here do and toss it around as some excuse, victimhood, or to curry favor. I see it used often for such meaning.
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  #184  
Old 05-25-2018, 9:28 AM
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Someone would only want it both ways if they wanted you to follow one unconstitutional law while they ignored and didn't follow another unconstitutional law.
Hah that sounds like California attorney general. Business owners reporting illegals to the feds will be fined or shut down

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  #185  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:34 PM
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Where you going to run to? Last time I checked California is part of the USA and California isn't special. The 10th and 14th amendments applies to California same as all the other states.
Last time I checked, the constitution in California only applied to special classes of people or a womans womb
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  #186  
Old 05-25-2018, 1:55 PM
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Moral of the story: Don't register.
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  #187  
Old 05-25-2018, 2:09 PM
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The case has pretext all over it to get into the house.
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  #188  
Old 05-25-2018, 3:12 PM
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not sure why some got hung up on the pistol caliber, and why the original complaints even mention it, they clearly don't know how their own forms work. CRIS does not have an option for just .300 BLK. He registered it correctly, it is the last caliber in the option that starts with .300WM, and also includes .300 Wthrby Mag, .300 Sav, and .300 H&H. Did you know .22LR is the same option as .22-250? Weird, but that's how it is. If this is how they roll, I'd be afraid to register a .50 Beowulf because the first caliber in that list is .50BMG. .223Rem and 5.56x45 are separate though. Go figure.
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  #189  
Old 05-25-2018, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Maybe with this case, we'll finally get to learn under what legal authority DOJ is claiming that his 9 AWs can't have normal mag releases during the registration window. The only thing that says he can't is DOJ's own regulation that they invented for a penal code that doesn't exist... So that should be interesting.
Do we know if he submitted those other 9 for registration?
I’m more curious about their authority to make us keep the BB on AFTER registration is completed
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  #190  
Old 05-25-2018, 4:19 PM
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This is so ridiculous. I hate this state. The fact that this guy is now a criminal is so absurd.
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  #191  
Old 05-25-2018, 5:07 PM
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I don't see being a "liitle ol law abiding citizen" as a defense like many here do and toss it around as some excuse, victimhood, or to curry favor.
The Second Amendment is the Law.
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  #192  
Old 05-25-2018, 5:13 PM
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The Second Amendment is the Law.
I agree, but I don't think it would've made any difference if he told the agents that.
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  #193  
Old 05-25-2018, 5:16 PM
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I agree, but I don't think it would've made any difference if he told the agents that.
It's because they're outlaws.
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  #194  
Old 05-25-2018, 6:12 PM
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Do we know if he submitted those other 9 for registration?
I’m more curious about their authority to make us keep the BB on AFTER registration is completed
Don't know if he submitted, but they were unregistered
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Old 05-25-2018, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Only if he doesn't take a plea bargain.

There's a very strong chance that the prosecutor will offer him something like 30 days in jail and 3 years probation (in lieu of whatever "throwing the book at him" could get, probably something insane like 40+ years in prison) if he pleads guilty to felony suppressor possession and unregistered AW possession.

The only way this case could provide any useful case law is if he pleads not guilty and takes it to trial - and history shows that almost never happens, because prosecutors carefully craft their plea bargains to be as irresistible as possible.

Fortunately for everyone, it seems he is at least somewhat well-off financially, so maybe with some additional support from us, he'll choose to fight and win.

This won't be a test case. Of course he will take a plea bargain. The only fight he is going to offer up will be to gain the most favorable plea bargain possible. The suppressor charges ensure that. He doesn't have much room to manoeuvre with them on the table.
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Excellent! I am thinking about it as well and I only have 4 points and an unfortunate "match bump" up to expert classification where I am far less "competitive" with my peers there.
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  #196  
Old 05-25-2018, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Sorry, the penal code says nothing about how DROSing a firearm as something is clearly does not fit the legal definition of can legally make it something that it isn't. A stripped receiver is neither a rifle nor a pistol so, DROSing it as one or the other really is no different than DROSing a scarecrow as a watermelon. It is still legally a scarecrow and doesn't fit the legal definition of watermelon no matter what it was DROSed as.

If you really think there's a penal code that covers this, please cite it. I'd love to read it and will admit I'm wrong if it exists. Until then, I'm sorry but, you're wrong. There isn't any penal code or regulation addressing this subject. It is completely an underground regulation which DOJ has implemented without there being a law to support their doing this.

Can a pistol frame only be PPT’d?

I’m pretty sure a frame only can be purchased through a PPT, regardless of roster status.

If that is the case then it really wouldn’t matter if it was DROSed as as a frame, or as a complete firearm, since it was originally a pistol, and was never a rifle.

Same as if someone moved to CA with an off roster pistol, and later sold the frame only.


Please correct me if I’m wrong.
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  #197  
Old 05-25-2018, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Great post, I agree with all that and I'll add that even those of us who are glued to CGN don't fully understand all the laws. I know about as much as anyone could about it, and I still feel like I don't really have a firm grasp on all the laws. I don't even think the authors of the laws really understand everything they wrote.
I agree, and for me its a terrible feeling to have.

There is nothing worse than being non confident in defending yourself when it comes to these laws. It's such a wishy washy mess.
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  #198  
Old 05-25-2018, 6:50 PM
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Sounds like the Sun Devil is not being prosecuted, DA probably realized its a can of worm. Processed prior to 2016 as common property and found as legit fix mag pistol.

For the other 9 AW, if he had submitted the Registeration then it would be the test case what DA will charge for replacing B.B. post registeration, since there is no penalty specified in the law or regulation. Now if he not yet submitted the application but has “intention” to register, then it would be a test case if a BBAW is like any AW post 2017, if yes then the grace period ends by June 30 so there is no procession of illegal AW.

Are the cans legally purchased by his company with him as a trustee? So they are processed by his company and not him?
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  #199  
Old 05-25-2018, 6:59 PM
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How would a CA company be able to purchase suppressors? Is a company somehow different that an individual in CA regarding NFA items?

Of course this is assuming his company is CA based.
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  #200  
Old 05-25-2018, 7:14 PM
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Residency in another state? Maybe he's got a destructive weapons permit? Def interesting....
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