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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 07-19-2019, 11:25 AM
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Default OC CCW Suspended for bringing Ammo and Mags through John Wayne Airport

I have a CCW and carry everyday. I keep two spare mags in a backpack in case of a major catastrophe where I might have to hike home. Well like many on these threads I forgot to take them out of my backpack before taking it with me to the airport. TSA found them in the X-ray and called the on site OC Sheriff. They were all very nice, confiscated the mags and ammo, took down my information, and sent me to my flight. Took 20 min and I made my flight. The OC Sheriff told me it's not a big deal, happens all the time, and is not a crime. It's just the mags and ammo, no firearm. TSA might fine or send warning.

I accept all of that. Problem I have is I notified the CCW department at the OC Sheriff as required and a few days later they send an email stating my CCW is immediately suspended for violating the terms and conditions of the license. I went through the terms and conditions and I couldn't find anything on possession of ammo, magazines, or gun parts at an airport as being a violation. I was expecting to have trouble renewing, but not an immediate suspension. I'm guessing I'm banned for life now, but if not I would appreciate some guidance.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:32 AM
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While it may not be explicitly stated in the T&C, OCSD (and any IA) has the right to cancel CCW permits as they see fit. Being forgetful (you admitted it) is the same as being careless. They probably don't want any careless permittees walking around with firearms.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but it's reality (unfortunately). I, too, would be bummed and would be kicking myself in the rear-end if I did something like that.
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Old 07-19-2019, 1:08 PM
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This is one of my biggest fears. I do the same thing using the same backpack for travel and hiking/camping/road trips and have caught a mag at the last minute prior to leaving my house for the airport. Now I check the bag and have my wife double check it too. With that being said, an appeal would likely be your last hope, but even then it sounds like it might be fruitless. Sorry to hear this man.

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Old 07-19-2019, 1:37 PM
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I would definitely contact the CCW Unit and see what's up. Yes you made a mistake but to err is human. can't hurt to ask for an explanation and hopefully they give you one.
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Old 07-19-2019, 1:39 PM
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We all make mistakes - Cops too. I would make an appeal of the decision and simply explain the truth. You might consider legal council as well to help promote your case. With no gun involved, some might not see that a notification to OCSD was necessary. So this is how they might respond. Some might simply just take the risk without notification.
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Old 07-19-2019, 2:14 PM
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Several years ago I went through security at LAX with 50 rounds of hollow point in my backpack. TSA spotted them and pulled my backpack. They called the LAX police, who took their time in showing up. They ran my license (clean of course), asked why I had the ammo in my backpack (a mistake on my part), confiscated it and sent me on my way. 3 months later I got a TSA Notice of Violation in the mail along with a $250 fine ($125 if I paid within 30 days, which I did). It also suspended my TSA pre-check indefinitely.

When I renewed my CCW I was up front with my IA, gave them the TSA letter, talked to the interviewer at length about it, the whole 9 yards. He said not a problem and that they appreciated my honesty. CCW was renewed just fine. I got LUCKY.

Finally got my pre-Check back this past May (3 years!), after renewing my Global entry subscription. From this experience I decided that I will never use my travel backpack for anything gun related again. Period. Bought a separate backpack that will never be used for travel on an airplane and is only used for firearms related transportation. I don't even keep the 2 backpacks in the same room in my house lest I make another mistake. I feel like I dodged the proverbial bullet in that case, but 3 years of regular travel without TSA Pre-check was pretty sucky.
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Last edited by baggss; 07-19-2019 at 2:18 PM..
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  #7  
Old 07-19-2019, 2:19 PM
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Wow, that's harsh, but as others said, we are held to a high standard. I would appeal if at all possible to at least make my case.
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Old 07-19-2019, 2:31 PM
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To anyone reading this,

Get separate bags. Range/gun/camping/ non flying bags dont go on planes.

Flying bags dont go anywhere else.
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  #9  
Old 07-19-2019, 2:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
To anyone reading this,

Get separate bags. Range/gun/camping/ non flying bags dont go on planes.

Flying bags dont go anywhere else.
This, In my garage I keep my flying/cruising Luggage/Rolling Duffel/Backpack.

I'm around guns/ammo/knives/ect... way to much to risk missing a small thing.
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2019, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baggss View Post
Several years ago I went through security at LAX with 50 rounds of hollow point in my backpack. TSA spotted them and pulled my backpack. They called the LAX police, who took their time in showing up. They ran my license (clean of course), asked why I had the ammo in my backpack (a mistake on my part), confiscated it and sent me on my way. 3 months later I got a TSA Notice of Violation in the mail along with a $250 fine ($125 if I paid within 30 days, which I did). It also suspended my TSA pre-check indefinitely.

When I renewed my CCW I was up front with my IA, gave them the TSA letter, talked to the interviewer at length about it, the whole 9 yards. He said not a problem and that they appreciated my honesty. CCW was renewed just fine. I got LUCKY.

Finally got my pre-Check back this past May (3 years!), after renewing my Global entry subscription. From this experience I decided that I will never use my travel backpack for anything gun related again. Period. Bought a separate backpack that will never be used for travel on an airplane and is only used for firearms related transportation. I don't even keep the 2 backpacks in the same room in my house lest I make another mistake. I feel like I dodged the proverbial bullet in that case, but 3 years of regular travel without TSA Pre-check was pretty sucky.
Many, many years ago, I flew out of LAX to Cleveland. No issue. Was there for a couple of days and flew back. At Cleveland, my bag got flagged. Thought it was some flashlight batteries, until the TSA agent started fishing out a couple of loose rounds of .22 out of the bottom of my bag! Had used the bag earlier in the week as a range bag and some rounds obviously fell out. Nothing happened and they sent me on the way. Ended up later getting Pre-check and a TWIC ID, so they did nothing with it. Interesting that it got by LAX but was caught in Cleveland.
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Old 07-19-2019, 5:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamaster View Post
Problem I have is I notified the CCW department at the OC Sheriff as required
Why would you notify OCSD the TSA is not LE.
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Old 07-19-2019, 5:21 PM
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Wow man, that really sucks. I hope they give you a break on your appeal.

I have a "work" backpack that goes with me to work, home and on travels. Occasionally I park my spare mag in the side pocket or even more rarely put my CCW in it.

For me to forget my CCW in it is highly unlikely, but I do get paranoid sometimes about leaving a loaded mag in it before travel.

This is a good reminder to always check the carry on bag before travel.

Good luck to you.

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Last edited by caliberetta; 07-19-2019 at 7:35 PM..
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2019, 5:57 PM
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Wow, that sucks. That's a hard way to learn a lesson.

For the rest of us keep in mind OC has an ordinance prohibiting CCW at John Wayne Airport - even the non-sterile areas.
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Old 07-19-2019, 6:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarosa View Post
Wow, that sucks. That's a hard way to learn a lesson.

For the rest of us keep in mind OC has an ordinance prohibiting CCW at John Wayne Airport - even the non-sterile areas.
Source?
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Old 07-19-2019, 6:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Cal_OC View Post
Source?
OC Ordinance Title 2, Division 1, Article 5, 2-1-53 (i):

No person, except peace officers, an authorized post office or Airport employee or a member of the armed forces of the United States on official duty, shall carry any weapon, explosive or flammable material on or about his person, openly or concealed, on the Airport without the written permission of the Airport Director. This Section shall not apply to persons carrying firearms in cases, broken down or unloaded when said firearms are being transported by air. For the purposes of this section, a weapon includes all those listed in California Penal Code Sections 12000-12654.

https://library.municode.com/search?...ntTypeId=CODES
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Old 07-19-2019, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igs View Post
Why would you notify OCSD the TSA is not LE.
Because the TSA called the OC Sheriff's at the airport first.
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Old 07-19-2019, 8:04 PM
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It's right there between the first two lines of the terms and conditions....1) be responsible and 2) don't be an idiot.

Terrorists often "ping" secure areas to test security and if they get past, to plant weapons/ammo/ supplies for future use. Some mistakes just can't, and shouldn't, be overlooked.
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Old 07-19-2019, 8:55 PM
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License was suspended, not revoked.

Contact the IA and request a meeting to discuss the issue and determine the length of the suspension.

From the Terms and Conditions:
Quote:
The license holder shall agree to abide by the following terms for carrying a concealed weapon. Failure to do so shall result in the immediate suspension of the CCW license. Following an investigation by the CCW Licensing Unit into the matter, a determination will be made for re-issuance of the CCW.

And,

Section 9) o. any other act, omission or commission, deemed by the Sheriff to violate these regulations and/or the Sheriff’s reasonable expectation of sound judgment and responsible conduct
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Old 07-19-2019, 9:16 PM
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I would appeal the suspension. But own it (the mistake) and be humble and eat crow. Come ready to sound like you have given it much thought and reflection, and tell them exactly what you have learned and how you plan to insure it (or anything like it) never happens again, such as:
  • maintaining separate bags for flying use only
  • starting every trip prep with COMPLETELY EMPTY BAGS
  • having someone else at home double check your bags before you leave to fly

If there were any mitigating factors you might be tempted to mention them (I was in a hurry, my wife helped me pack, I don’t fly often), but at the risk of sounding like you are making excuses I would tread lightly there.

But whatever you do, don’t go there and act like you did nothing wrong - because you did. They don’t have to spell out this in their policies: don’t break laws.

Specifically 49 CFR 175, which says carrying HAZMAT on a commercial plane is illegal, small arms ammunition is HAZMAT ORM-D per 49 CFR 172.101 and the only exception that would apply to you as a non-LEO passenger is 49 CFR 175.10 which says the ammunition must be in checked bags.

The CCW is not big enough to print every law that applies to you/me/us. So ‘don’t break laws’ is the catch-all.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/175.10

Quote:
(a) This subchapter does not apply to the following hazardous materials when carried by aircraft passengers or crewmembers provided the requirements of §§ 171.15 and 171.16 (see paragraph (c) of this section) and the requirements of this section are met:
...
(8) Small arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in checked baggage only, if securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed. This paragraph does not apply to persons traveling under the provisions of 49 CFR 1544.219.
Thanks for sharing. This is a reminder to all of us to up our game before heading to the airport.

Best of luck, let us know how it works out.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:07 PM
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Default range bag != air travel bag

Quote:
Originally Posted by baggss View Post
From this experience I decided that I will never use my travel backpack for anything gun related again. Period. Bought a separate backpack that will never be used for travel on an airplane and is only used for firearms related transportation. I don't even keep the 2 backpacks in the same room in my house lest I make another mistake.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

When I created my gun backpack I never really thought much about it. I use it only for gun stuff and store it near my guns. It never goes anywhere, unless I'm taking a gun someplace.

By reading the experiences here, I can now better appreciate why I created a separate gun only backpack and why it's segregated from everything else.

I know better understand the trouble of trying to reuse it for travel and the dangers.
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Old 07-20-2019, 6:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
To anyone reading this,

Get separate bags. Range/gun/camping/ non flying bags dont go on planes.

Flying bags dont go anywhere else.
Came here to post this. A few years ago I missed a loaded magazine, fortunately at a small airport, very early morning, TSA let me run it back to my truck. I ordered a separate backpack while waiting for that flight to board. I was exceptionally fortunate, but now I'm borderline paranoid about the packs.
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Old 07-20-2019, 7:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
To anyone reading this,

Get separate bags. Range/gun/camping/ non flying bags dont go on planes.

Flying bags dont go anywhere else.
Exactly.

Also, check pants pockets. I had a live round go through a washer, dryer, get folded and make it to a carry on. OC TSA did not catch it, but the Denver TSA did. They got rid of it for me.
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Old 07-20-2019, 7:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
License was suspended, not revoked.

Contact the IA and request a meeting to discuss the issue and determine the length of the suspension.

From the Terms and Conditions:
And don't just show up and wing that meeting. Get some solid, even professional, significant advice about what to say and how to say it/behave. It should go much like meeting your girlfriend's parents for the first time if that's a clue. G/L!
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Old 07-20-2019, 9:36 AM
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Imagine living in a state where the government reserves the right to suspend your civil rights because you did something they find distasteful--not illegal, mind you, just distasteful.
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Old 07-21-2019, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Imagine living in a state where the government reserves the right to suspend your civil rights because you did something they find distasteful--not illegal, mind you, just distasteful.
It is not "distasteful", it is against TSA regulations. In reality he could have been fined by the TSA as it is a civil violation.

And as a "may issue" State CCW permit is not a civil right in CA. They are not prohibiting him from owning firearms which is a civil right.
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Old 07-21-2019, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
To anyone reading this,

Get separate bags. Range/gun/camping/ non flying bags dont go on planes.

Flying bags dont go anywhere else.
EXACTLY this.

Range bags have gunpowder residue on them and there is always the risk of that random round finding it's way into the liner.

I keep my travel bags in a totally separate part of the house.

OP ,file an appeal. Could be a 30, 60, 90 day suspension but you would never know if you don't file.

Plus by appealing you become a person not a report.
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Old 07-21-2019, 7:28 PM
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I have three packs in my car. My get home, my gym pack and my daily. The get home stays in the trunk.
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Old 07-21-2019, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebrock View Post
This is one of my biggest fears. I do the same thing using the same backpack for travel and hiking/camping/road trips and have caught a mag at the last minute prior to leaving my house for the airport. Now I check the bag and have my wife double check it too. With that being said, an appeal would likely be your last hope, but even then it sounds like it might be fruitless. Sorry to hear this man.

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better to buy another bag and keep that one for none travel.
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
It is not "distasteful", it is against TSA regulations. In reality he could have been fined by the TSA as it is a civil violation.



And as a "may issue" State CCW permit is not a civil right in CA. They are not prohibiting him from owning firearms which is a civil right.


The right to keep and bear arms is absolutely a civil right regardless of whether California recognizes it as such.

Are you saying, then, that the state should revoke my civil rights if I wrote libelous statements about you on this forum? Because that’s also a civil violation. Commit one civil violation and the state gets to revoke all your civil rights?

I only hope our OP can appeal this suspension because it will be utterly ridiculous if he loses his civil rights permanently over a civil violation.


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Old 07-22-2019, 12:10 AM
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What the government bequeathed, the government can take away.
Even rights that shall not be infringed.

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Old 07-22-2019, 6:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarosa View Post
OC Ordinance Title 2, Division 1, Article 5, 2-1-53 (i):

No person, except peace officers, an authorized post office or Airport employee or a member of the armed forces of the United States on official duty, shall carry any weapon, explosive or flammable material on or about his person, openly or concealed, on the Airport without the written permission of the Airport Director. This Section shall not apply to persons carrying firearms in cases, broken down or unloaded when said firearms are being transported by air. For the purposes of this section, a weapon includes all those listed in California Penal Code Sections 12000-12654.

https://library.municode.com/search?...ntTypeId=CODES

I had no idea!
So, basically, that means that any CCW holder really needs to check ordinances and codes of the airport they are intending to travel to.
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:07 AM
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Thank You all for the support and advice. I will get some professional advise and call the CCW department and ask for a meeting or at least a phone conversation with an IA. I know this is my mistake and believe I deserve some kind of punishment. I'm not going to make excuses or quote the constitution when talking to them.

Lessons Learned:
1. NEVER use the same bag to travel and carry ammo.
2. Don't report any incident to the CCW department before talking to legal counsel first.
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:22 AM
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A friend I was traveling with had the same issue. TSA spotted the ammo in his back pack and it went down exactly as your situation. The difference is my CCW friend never said a word to anyone afterward. It’s been two years and nothing since .....
My opinion , But I think bureaucracy is so inefficient and overloaded in California that you would have been better saying nothing . What is the worst case, they suspend your CCW?
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:36 AM
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A friend I was traveling with had the same issue. TSA spotted the ammo in his back pack and it went down exactly as your situation. The difference is my CCW friend never said a word to anyone afterward. It’s been two years and nothing since .....
A "friend"?? Ha! Okay. Whatever your say.
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Old 07-22-2019, 8:48 AM
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  #36  
Old 07-22-2019, 9:01 AM
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I would check with them. It's not like your left your firearm in a public bathroom and it was taken.
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Old 07-22-2019, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fighter4cage View Post
A friend I was traveling with had the same issue. TSA spotted the ammo in his back pack and it went down exactly as your situation. The difference is my CCW friend never said a word to anyone afterward. It’s been two years and nothing since .....
My opinion , But I think bureaucracy is so inefficient and overloaded in California that you would have been better saying nothing . What is the worst case, they suspend your CCW?
I debated it. My thinking was if I don't tell them and they see it on some report somewhere when I renew they wouldn't renew me because I was supposed to report it. If I had known it was going to be an instant suspension I would have consulted someone first. They way the Sheriff talked at the airport made it seem like this wasn't a big deal. He clearly didn't know and I would bet he would be shocked that they suspended it. Lessons learned.
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Old 07-22-2019, 9:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother_Hesekiel View Post
I had no idea!
So, basically, that means that any CCW holder really needs to check ordinances and codes of the airport they are intending to travel to.
Many CA cities have the same ordinance. I know that Sacramento does.
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Old 07-22-2019, 9:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamaster View Post
I debated it. My thinking was if I don't tell them and they see it on some report somewhere when I renew they wouldn't renew me because I was supposed to report it. If I had known it was going to be an instant suspension I would have consulted someone first. They way the Sheriff talked at the airport made it seem like this wasn't a big deal. He clearly didn't know and I would bet he would be shocked that they suspended it. Lessons learned.
Remember, IMO no government agency is your friend. They are all enforcement agencies and will do just that.

Yeah, you have a few (I think 7 or 10 in my county) days to report... I think your situation provides a good reason to seek counsel before doing so but staying within the allotted time frame. I wish you the best OP, personally I feel once this is appealed or reviewed that you'll be reinstated.
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Old 07-22-2019, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fighter4cage View Post
My opinion , But I think bureaucracy is so inefficient and overloaded in California that you would have been better saying nothing . What is the worst case, they suspend your CCW?
That inefficient, overloaded bureaucracy already suspended the LTC. His failure to report the contact could have led to immediate revocation.
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