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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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#201
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There is no reason to do a consignment as a PPT other than the exemption and remember the law regarding PPTs and denials and returns. Consider a transfer of a firearm from a private party occasional sale to another CA resident, but where the firearm is shipped in. The difference is in the dealer fees, the return of the firearm and not exempt unless it is an intrafamilial transfer.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#202
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Only if it transferred that way and both are CA residents.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#203
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Do you run consignments and have a second hand dealers license? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#204
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Check with the CA DOJ and the CA PC if you don't believe me.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#205
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I didn't mean anything negative by asking. Just wanted to know if you had experience with the system. There is no other way to run a consignment but as a PPT. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#206
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You can run it as a dealer sale unless you need the exemption. Consider the consignment from out of state or from another dealer.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#207
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No you can't according to CA DOJ. The whole point is to PPT it so that it comes out of the consignors name, regardless of exemptions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#208
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They made it very clear that a dros worksheet must be filled out at time of consignment with all the sellers info and then processed as a ppt when it sells.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#209
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Is that a recent change?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#210
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Ever since we went away from pawn slips at least. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#211
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Do you have an official statement regarding that? The DOJ has been know to give out bogus info and it does not make sense, yes, I know, it is the government.
The new DROS shows it has been transferred. If the firearm is shipped within CA it can't be done as a PPT and the same is true when the FFL buys it.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#212
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I have a citation for not having a dros worksheet with a consignment. The problem with dros and the entire system is that if you did a dealer sale it would add an AFS entry to the buyer but not remove it from the seller. They would have to fill out a no longer in possession form Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#213
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The no longer in possession form is optional.
A citation means nothing. I know of bogus claims. A FFL I know was told that he was wrong to have two addresses on a 4473 for a military person even though right in the instructions tells you to do that in a specific case. As I said, shipped firearms don't correct it. If it was really an issue, you would think that the no longer in possession would be required, not optional.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#214
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Last edited by taperxz; 05-08-2017 at 10:00 AM.. |
#215
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Was it for an off roster handgun or something else?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#216
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There is also a privacy issue since you are required to give a copy of the DROS and a PPT has the seller's name on it.
I called the DOJ and they said consignments have to be done as a PPT, but did not know any CA PC or regulation, plus the person did not know why you would have to do a DROS worksheet.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#217
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The buyers copy of the DROS does not have the sellers info on it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#218
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I don't remember to be honest. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#219
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You have to do the worksheet because the seller and buyer would not be in the store at the same time. You attach the worksheet to a copy of the final dros that will not have the sellers signature and thumbprint. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#220
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I guess you could arrange for the seller and buyer to be in the building at the same time and not do a worksheet but that's a pain in the ***. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#221
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It has the name as I recall.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#222
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Yes, I am aware of that, but the person at the DOJ wasn't.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#223
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You also do the DROS worksheet for a normal PPT when the buyer and seller don't come at the same time.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#224
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Since DES was implemented there is a buyers copy that has no sellers info on it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#225
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One of the nice things done by the CA DOJ is to be able to print the various versions for a PPT.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#226
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So back to the question - why if someone from Nevada can consign a gun at a CA FFL is there no way for that FFL to actually process the sales side of it?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#227
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Well, if it is shipped in, then there isn't a problem as then it wouldn't really be a consignment in terms of the CA law with consignments :-).
The problem comes in that if you can accept a firearm for consignment from a non-resident of CA, but you can't sell it since the CA DOJ requires that it be processed as a CA PPT, then the CA DOJ needs to address that. If you could do the transfer as a normal dealer sale, then there isn't an issue. In any case, there would be an issue returning the firearm to an out of state resident since you can't submit a DROS for them and you can't just return it to them.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#228
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I'm taking shipping out of it. Let's say they drive it in. Off roster handgun - legal to consign but no way to sell. That's sounds like a DES problem. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#229
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I'm taking shipping out of it. Let's say they drive it in. Off roster handgun - legal to consign but no way to sell. That's sounds like a DES problem. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#230
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Take off roster out of it. No way to sell a consignment from out of state if you use the consignment system.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#231
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Yes. Now back to the question - is it a legal prohibition or is the system just not set up for it? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#232
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I do not know of any law or regulation which documents that consignments are done as a PPT. Perhaps the citation states the basis.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#233
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I'm a bit late to this discussion, but it's very interesting so I'll throw in my 2c.
IRS can collapse a set of complex transactions and observe it a single transaction in order to prevent people from getting creative with the order of transaction. Similarly to the CA gun laws, financial laws tend to be a hodgepodge of micro rules that are supposed to prevent everything from money laundering to claiming non-business exemptions, yet people always figure out a way to organize multiple corporations or LLCs and move assets around to get around the law. Wouldn't it be possible for the DOJ to create rules (not laws) that would treat these transactions as a single "buyer got an off-roster gun" transaction and therefore declare it illegal? They could claim the IRS as a template and have a pretty good case in the court.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#234
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Just look at how they undergrounded the 03 FFL + COE for 1/30 exemptions. CA PC says all handguns, CA DOJ says only C&R handguns...
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Hauoli Makahiki Hou ------- |
#235
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Isn't that "use tax" instead of "sales tax?" I believe it's a federal regulation that sales tax cannot be charged on interstate purchases because POS is not well defined. There is an exemption if the online retailer also has physical presence in the state where the buyer is, so a state can treat that as an in-store transaction and request the seller to collect the *sales tax*.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#236
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Not a stretch to see DOJ use it in a firearms case. I could also see them declaring the original idea proposed in this thread a Straw Sale because ultimately someone ends up with a out of state off roster gun they were prohibited from buying. I know I know, "I'm totally off base." Which I could be because I don't do gun law, But as an EA I live and breath tax law. Also know California Law gives the State Far greater power then the Fed's. For example BOE can pick a number out of thin air and assert it is your taxable sales. They do not have to prove it, you have to disprove it. IRS does not have that much power. Be aware California likes to make examples out of people. They will for example raid someone's business, release to the press that they are filing multiple felony's and imposing outrages fines (all to scare everyone else into submission) then settle the case for a lot less on the quiet.
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Only slaves don't need guns We stand for the Anthem, we kneel for the cross We already have the only reasonable Gun Control we need, It's called the Second Amendment and it's the government it controls. What doesn't kill me, better run Last edited by 71MUSTY; 05-08-2017 at 8:59 PM.. |
#237
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Fight it if you have the time and money, but the BOE basically answers to no one.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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