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  #201  
Old 05-08-2017, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolishMike View Post
Also - wouldn't all consignments have to be done as a PPT legally?

Why is there a mechanism for an out of state resident to consign a firearm but no way for the dealer to process it.

The ppt screen should allow an out of state seller ID if it is a consignment sale.
A consignment only has to be done as a PPT in order to qualify for the exemption. A CA PPT is between residents of CA.

There is no reason to do a consignment as a PPT other than the exemption and remember the law regarding PPTs and denials and returns.

Consider a transfer of a firearm from a private party occasional sale to another CA resident, but where the firearm is shipped in. The difference is in the dealer fees, the return of the firearm and not exempt unless it is an intrafamilial transfer.
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  #202  
Old 05-08-2017, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PolishMike View Post
No - but private party is. Which is what a consignment is, whether On or off roster.


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Only if it transferred that way and both are CA residents.
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  #203  
Old 05-08-2017, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Only if it transferred that way and both are CA residents.


Do you run consignments and have a second hand dealers license?


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  #204  
Old 05-08-2017, 8:59 AM
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Do you run consignments and have a second hand dealers license?
Check with the CA DOJ and the CA PC if you don't believe me.
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  #205  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Check with the CA DOJ and the CA PC if you don't believe me.


I didn't mean anything negative by asking. Just wanted to know if you had experience with the system.

There is no other way to run a consignment but as a PPT.


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  #206  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PolishMike View Post
I didn't mean anything negative by asking. Just wanted to know if you had experience with the system.

There is no other way to run a consignment but as a PPT.


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You can run it as a dealer sale unless you need the exemption. Consider the consignment from out of state or from another dealer.
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  #207  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You can run it as a dealer sale unless you need the exemption. Consider the consignment from out of state or from another dealer.


No you can't according to CA DOJ. The whole point is to PPT it so that it comes out of the consignors name, regardless of exemptions.


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  #208  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:14 AM
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They made it very clear that a dros worksheet must be filled out at time of consignment with all the sellers info and then processed as a ppt when it sells.


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  #209  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:16 AM
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Is that a recent change?
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  #210  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:19 AM
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Is that a recent change?


Ever since we went away from pawn slips at least.


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  #211  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:39 AM
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Do you have an official statement regarding that? The DOJ has been know to give out bogus info and it does not make sense, yes, I know, it is the government.

The new DROS shows it has been transferred. If the firearm is shipped within CA it can't be done as a PPT and the same is true when the FFL buys it.
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  #212  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Do you have an official statement regarding that? The DOJ has been know to give out bogus info and it does not make sense, yes, I know, it is the government.

The new DROS shows it has been transferred. If the firearm is shipped within CA it can't be done as a PPT and the same is true when the FFL buys it.


I have a citation for not having a dros worksheet with a consignment.

The problem with dros and the entire system is that if you did a dealer sale it would add an AFS entry to the buyer but not remove it from the seller. They would have to fill out a no longer in possession form


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  #213  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:51 AM
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The no longer in possession form is optional.

A citation means nothing. I know of bogus claims. A FFL I know was told that he was wrong to have two addresses on a 4473 for a military person even though right in the instructions tells you to do that in a specific case.

As I said, shipped firearms don't correct it. If it was really an issue, you would think that the no longer in possession would be required, not optional.
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  #214  
Old 05-08-2017, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The no longer in possession form is optional.

A citation means nothing. I know of bogus claims. A FFL I know was told that he was wrong to have two addresses on a 4473 for a military person even though right in the instructions tells you to do that in a specific case.

As I said, shipped firearms don't correct it. If it was really an issue, you would think that the no longer in possession would be required, not optional.
When you enter a gun for consignment, it's entered under our CFD and attached to an invoice number. It's logged into DES in a way that may actually be the no longer in possession form since technically it's no longer in their possession. In fact it satisfies LE to prove that a newly prohibited person is in fact not possessing that firearm.

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  #215  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:01 AM
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I have a citation for not having a dros worksheet with a consignment.
Was it for an off roster handgun or something else?
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  #216  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:19 AM
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There is also a privacy issue since you are required to give a copy of the DROS and a PPT has the seller's name on it.

I called the DOJ and they said consignments have to be done as a PPT, but did not know any CA PC or regulation, plus the person did not know why you would have to do a DROS worksheet.
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  #217  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There is also a privacy issue since you are required to give a copy of the DROS and a PPT has the seller's name on it.

I called the DOJ and they said consignments have to be done as a PPT, but did not know any CA PC or regulation, plus the person did not know why you would have to do a DROS worksheet.

The buyers copy of the DROS does not have the sellers info on it.


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  #218  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:32 AM
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Was it for an off roster handgun or something else?


I don't remember to be honest.


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  #219  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There is also a privacy issue since you are required to give a copy of the DROS and a PPT has the seller's name on it.

I called the DOJ and they said consignments have to be done as a PPT, but did not know any CA PC or regulation, plus the person did not know why you would have to do a DROS worksheet.


You have to do the worksheet because the seller and buyer would not be in the store at the same time. You attach the worksheet to a copy of the final dros that will not have the sellers signature and thumbprint.


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  #220  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:34 AM
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You have to do the worksheet because the seller and buyer would not be in the store at the same time. You attach the worksheet to a copy of the final dros that will not have the sellers signature and thumbprint.


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I guess you could arrange for the seller and buyer to be in the building at the same time and not do a worksheet but that's a pain in the ***.


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  #221  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:34 AM
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The buyers copy of the DROS does not have the sellers info on it.


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It has the name as I recall.
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  #222  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:35 AM
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You have to do the worksheet because the seller and buyer would not be in the store at the same time. You attach the worksheet to a copy of the final dros that will not have the sellers signature and thumbprint.


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Yes, I am aware of that, but the person at the DOJ wasn't.
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  #223  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:37 AM
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You also do the DROS worksheet for a normal PPT when the buyer and seller don't come at the same time.
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  #224  
Old 05-08-2017, 10:39 AM
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It has the name as I recall.


Since DES was implemented there is a buyers copy that has no sellers info on it.


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  #225  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:28 AM
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Since DES was implemented there is a buyers copy that has no sellers info on it.
Yeah, you are correct. I knew some info was off of it, but I thought that it still had the name, but I checked and it doesn't.

One of the nice things done by the CA DOJ is to be able to print the various versions for a PPT.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:31 AM
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So back to the question - why if someone from Nevada can consign a gun at a CA FFL is there no way for that FFL to actually process the sales side of it?


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  #227  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:40 AM
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Well, if it is shipped in, then there isn't a problem as then it wouldn't really be a consignment in terms of the CA law with consignments :-).

The problem comes in that if you can accept a firearm for consignment from a non-resident of CA, but you can't sell it since the CA DOJ requires that it be processed as a CA PPT, then the CA DOJ needs to address that. If you could do the transfer as a normal dealer sale, then there isn't an issue.

In any case, there would be an issue returning the firearm to an out of state resident since you can't submit a DROS for them and you can't just return it to them.
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  #228  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:58 AM
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Well, if it is shipped in, then there isn't a problem as then it wouldn't really be a consignment in terms of the CA law with consignments :-).

The problem comes in that if you can accept a firearm for consignment from a non-resident of CA, but you can't sell it since the CA DOJ requires that it be processed as a CA PPT, then the CA DOJ needs to address that. If you could do the transfer as a normal dealer sale, then there isn't an issue.

In any case, there would be an issue returning the firearm to an out of state resident since you can't submit a DROS for them and you can't just return it to them.


I'm taking shipping out of it. Let's say they drive it in.

Off roster handgun - legal to consign but no way to sell. That's sounds like a DES problem.


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  #229  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:04 PM
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Well, if it is shipped in, then there isn't a problem as then it wouldn't really be a consignment in terms of the CA law with consignments :-).

The problem comes in that if you can accept a firearm for consignment from a non-resident of CA, but you can't sell it since the CA DOJ requires that it be processed as a CA PPT, then the CA DOJ needs to address that. If you could do the transfer as a normal dealer sale, then there isn't an issue.

In any case, there would be an issue returning the firearm to an out of state resident since you can't submit a DROS for them and you can't just return it to them.


I'm taking shipping out of it. Let's say they drive it in.

Off roster handgun - legal to consign but no way to sell. That's sounds like a DES problem.


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  #230  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:14 PM
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Take off roster out of it. No way to sell a consignment from out of state if you use the consignment system.
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  #231  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:47 PM
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Take off roster out of it. No way to sell a consignment from out of state if you use the consignment system.


Yes. Now back to the question - is it a legal prohibition or is the system just not set up for it?


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  #232  
Old 05-08-2017, 1:19 PM
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Yes. Now back to the question - is it a legal prohibition or is the system just not set up for it?
It depends on where the requirement that a consignment be done as a PPT comes from. The law defines what a CA PPT is and the requirements, which means an out of state person can not do a CA PPT.

I do not know of any law or regulation which documents that consignments are done as a PPT. Perhaps the citation states the basis.
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Old 05-08-2017, 8:27 PM
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I'm a bit late to this discussion, but it's very interesting so I'll throw in my 2c.

IRS can collapse a set of complex transactions and observe it a single transaction in order to prevent people from getting creative with the order of transaction. Similarly to the CA gun laws, financial laws tend to be a hodgepodge of micro rules that are supposed to prevent everything from money laundering to claiming non-business exemptions, yet people always figure out a way to organize multiple corporations or LLCs and move assets around to get around the law.

Wouldn't it be possible for the DOJ to create rules (not laws) that would treat these transactions as a single "buyer got an off-roster gun" transaction and therefore declare it illegal? They could claim the IRS as a template and have a pretty good case in the court.
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  #234  
Old 05-08-2017, 8:34 PM
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...

Wouldn't it be possible for the DOJ to create rules (not laws) ...
The cynic in me says the CA DOJ can do whatever they want.
Just look at how they undergrounded the 03 FFL + COE for 1/30 exemptions. CA PC says all handguns, CA DOJ says only C&R handguns...
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Old 05-08-2017, 8:35 PM
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There are threads on sales tax.

CA BOE changed their view, so for many years now sales tax is due on firearms from out of state with some exceptions, such as gifts and private party occasional sales of C&R firearms where the buyer has a C&R FFL.
Isn't that "use tax" instead of "sales tax?" I believe it's a federal regulation that sales tax cannot be charged on interstate purchases because POS is not well defined. There is an exemption if the online retailer also has physical presence in the state where the buyer is, so a state can treat that as an in-store transaction and request the seller to collect the *sales tax*.
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Old 05-08-2017, 8:49 PM
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I'm a bit late to this discussion, but it's very interesting so I'll throw in my 2c.

IRS can collapse a set of complex transactions and observe it a single transaction in order to prevent people from getting creative with the order of transaction. Similarly to the CA gun laws, financial laws tend to be a hodgepodge of micro rules that are supposed to prevent everything from money laundering to claiming non-business exemptions, yet people always figure out a way to organize multiple corporations or LLCs and move assets around to get around the law.

Wouldn't it be possible for the DOJ to create rules (not laws) that would treat these transactions as a single "buyer got an off-roster gun" transaction and therefore declare it illegal? They could claim the IRS as a template and have a pretty good case in the court.
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Isn't that "use tax" instead of "sales tax?" I believe it's a federal regulation that sales tax cannot be charged on interstate purchases because POS is not well defined. There is an exemption if the online retailer also has physical presence in the state where the buyer is, so a state can treat that as an in-store transaction and request the seller to collect the *sales tax*.
Actually California has "Fraud Statutes" which allow them to do the same thing. It is used often in BK and Divorce proceedings in addition to tax cases.
Not a stretch to see DOJ use it in a firearms case. I could also see them declaring the original idea proposed in this thread a Straw Sale because ultimately someone ends up with a out of state off roster gun they were prohibited from buying.

I know I know, "I'm totally off base." Which I could be because I don't do gun law, But as an EA I live and breath tax law. Also know California Law gives the State Far greater power then the Fed's. For example BOE can pick a number out of thin air and assert it is your taxable sales. They do not have to prove it, you have to disprove it. IRS does not have that much power.

Be aware California likes to make examples out of people. They will for example raid someone's business, release to the press that they are filing multiple felony's and imposing outrages fines (all to scare everyone else into submission) then settle the case for a lot less on the quiet.
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Last edited by 71MUSTY; 05-08-2017 at 8:59 PM..
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Isn't that "use tax" instead of "sales tax?" I believe it's a federal regulation that sales tax cannot be charged on interstate purchases because POS is not well defined. There is an exemption if the online retailer also has physical presence in the state where the buyer is, so a state can treat that as an in-store transaction and request the seller to collect the *sales tax*.
No, the CA FFL is considered the CA retailer, unless the out of state FFL has a CA presence.

Fight it if you have the time and money, but the BOE basically answers to no one.
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