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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California |
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#41
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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Quote:
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#42
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No need to wash babies with dirty water in the first place. I'm not saying the book isn't useful, especially to those just starting out, but I think at this point I have the tools I need to stay up on things. CalGuns is an excellent resource and wealth of information.
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Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Quote:
Last edited by MrClamperSir; 10-04-2009 at 9:06 AM.. |
#43
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My 1999 version has the discussion of youth centers at pp 74-75. He says Quote:
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#44
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The format is pretty simple, and I'll help if you have questions.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#45
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__________________
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Quote:
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#46
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No - if you are licensed, you may carry legally at a 'youth center'.
If you are unlicensed and carry at one illegally, then in addition to whatever penalty you get for 12025/12031, you get a sentence enhancement.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#47
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That's the way I understand it as well. Thanks.
__________________
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Quote:
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#48
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Concealed carry is about reasonableness. If someone is impaired for any reason should they be carrying a deadly weapon? With alcohol (where this most commonly arises) if a person voluntarily chooses to impair their judgement is it reasonable they should have deadly force at their disposal? I cannont conceive of any issuing authority taking the position: get drunk, pack a gun - we are OK with what ever happens.
In truth, if any of us considered that we might be in danger, would impairing our ability to react responsibly to the circumstances be reasonable? It is very hard to argue against restrictions on a CCW that go to ability to responsibly exercise the privilege. |
#49
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Schools and courthouses are OK to carry. The same section that exempts LEO (PC 171b (b)) also exempts lawful CCW holders. Bars are banned because it states it on the DOJ application and it is a lawful restriction. Also, the presiding judge of any court can ban weapons in his courthouse. Within the courthouse, his word is law! Quote:
CCW in this state is sooo confusing! Where you can carry is just as confusing as when you must reveal to LEO that you are packing. There is the law...Then there are local restrictions from the issuing authority...then there are special restrictions for individual CCW holders. It just gets out of control. Tareva's list is a pretty good place to start. If you don't have Machtinger's book, it is a good read and pretty accurate. I glance through it every 3-6 months and keep a copy in my truck for ready reference. Also, everyone who has a CCW should read PC 12025, 12031, 12050, 171b, 171c, 171d, and 171e from beginning to end and make sure you understand them. None of any of these PC sections are particularly long or confusing, but all CCWers should be familiar with what is in them. YMMV |
#50
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It is a legal restriction if the issuer puts it on the face of the actual license. But it is not a restriction in PC, and the app does not have the force of law. If the issuer says 'no bars' on the license, then your license is not valid in bars, and you might be carrying illegally, and very easily might get the license revoked even if you don't get arrested and prosecuted.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#51
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The analysis comes down to the tension between Code of Civil Procedure section 128 that sets forth the power and authority of judges to control their courtrooms and Penal Code sections 171b and 12050 that respectively authorize certain persons to carry firearms in a courthouse and the issuing authority of a CCW to place reasonable restrictions on exercise of the permit. The power to restrict permit holders from carrying in the courthouse rests with the issuing authority and not the judges. The analysis in the AG opinion would apply to any CCW permit holder the same way it was applied to Deputy District Attorneys. The AG opinion is very narrow and does not reach to the question of carry in a courtroom. I do not think Penal Code section 171b prohibits the holder of an unrestricted CCW permit from carrying in a courtroom. I think Code of Civil Procedure section 128 would be interpreted by a court as conferring authority upon a judge to make an order prohibiting any person, including law enforcement officers, from bringing a gun into a courtroom. Unless the particular Judge, or the presiding judge for the county, has made such an order and it has been published or otherwise made known to the CCW permit holder, the conduct is governed by Penal Code sections 171b and 12050. I don't intend this as legal advice to any person: these are just some thoughts on the current state of the law on this issue. Also, I very much doubt anyone other than a law enforcement officer who is on official business is going to get a gun past the metal detector and into the courthouse. I know the Sheriff's Lt. in charge of courthouse security here does not agree that 171b permits a CCW holder to bring a gun into the courthouse. Ultimately pushing this issue is a looser; all the issuing authority (County Sheriff) has to do is place the appropriate restriction on the CCW and it is no longer valid in a courthouse. |
#52
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As a CCW instructor in my county...and we have a real business that is an actual business and licenses and all the accourtrements thereof.. and having done this for 20+ years....
I thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts... it is a pleasure to see the discussion and the use of facts/law used to dissect this issue...Nicely done all...I am really glad I found this site some time back... what a pleasure to read. the point is well taken... if the issuing authority places restrictions upon your license... don't piss off said authority and lose the license... in Kern... in addition to what is written upon your permit, the following applies to all permits issued by the Sheriff... While carrying the weapon under the CCW permit, the applicant: o shall not ingest, inhale, inject or be under the influence of illegal drugs at any time or ingest or be under the influence of alcohol while carrying the weapon. o Shall not represent self as a peace officer at any time. o Shall not violate any federal, state, or local law, statute or ordinance. o Shall not be under the influence of any mind-altering medication, including, but not limited to those labeled with a warning not to operate a motor vehicle or other machinery. o Shall not impede any law enforcement officer in the performance of their duties. o Shall not refuse to display or surrender their permits and weapon when requested to do so by a peace officer. o Shall not unjustifiably display a deadly weapon. o Shall immediately notify any peace officer with whom the licensee comes in contact with that the licensee is armed and has a permit in their possession. o Shall abide by the restrictions or limitations placed on the permit. o This permit does not authorize taking a firearm aboard any commercial aircraft. o The 4 hour Training Certificates are only good for 60 days. You may take your 4 hour refresher course 60 days in advance, but we are not allowed to renew your permit before 30 days. o If your permit expires, you will have to start the CCW process all over. There is no grace period, no exceptions.
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#53
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OK, you guys are putting words into my mouth. Never said these things were illegal, the word I used was "banned."
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Your last paragraph cuts to the chase, though...don't piss off the issuing authority. It may not bode well for you when renewal time comes up. Quote:
The application itself does not have the force of law. However, it is a contract between you and the issuing authority in order for you to obtain a CCW which exempts you from the law (12025) when it is in effect. If you violate the terms of issuance (the contract), the permit does not protect/exempt you from this law and you are in violation. The issuer can put additional restrictions on the license (which must be printed on the face), but you must abide by the restrictions on page 6 of the app at all times for the CCW to protect you from 12025. You may not get arrested, but your license will go bye-bye in a New York minute. |
#54
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You must abide by restrictions on the face of the license to avoid violating 12025. PC 12050 Quote:
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#55
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Wait...didn't you just agree with me/prove my point? I'm confused.
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#56
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You said Quote:
Violations of the terms of the the application may lose you your permit, but will not be violations of 12025.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#57
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12025 is the law regarding carrying a concealed handgun, right? So what I was trying to say (and I think we are in agreement here) is that if you violate the terms of the application, the CCW is void. A CCW is what protects you from violating 12025. Ergo, violate the restrictions...CCW is void...if you are carrying at the time you are in violation of 12025 and do not have the protection of the CCW. |
#58
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__________________
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. Quote:
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#59
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And I disagree about Quote:
ETA: You seem to be trying to put legal weight on the application (and its detailed terms), and there is no basis in the Penal Code to do that.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 10-14-2009 at 9:50 PM.. |
#61
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#62
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Second sticky thread has some good info.
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." ---George Orwell on a BBC broadcast, April 4, 1942 "Fast is fine. Accuracy is final. You need to learn to shoot slow, real fast." ---Wyatt Earp |
#63
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OK I didn't find a clear answer to this but the polling place is allowed? Assuming it's not in a courthouse or federal building or Post Office.
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#64
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But, also be aware that most street cops don't know the difference. "No" is easier to enforce.
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"People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.” "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently-talented fool." "The things that come to those who wait may well be the things left by those who got there first." Last edited by Dvrjon; 11-03-2020 at 8:01 AM.. |
#65
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If not under the influence or impaired? No |
#66
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I believe his (and other's) point is that distinction is not what the law says.
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#67
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1. usconcealedcarry.com
2. handgunlaw.us 3. giffords.org 4. Your permit might have non permissibles listed, Sutter Co. does 5. Ca. CCW Permit application section 4 explains alcohol clearly 6. School zones Ca PC 626.9 & 626.9(c) (5) 7. Federal properties 18 USC 930 8. Some state properties Ca PC 171c (a) (1), there are more than this. 9. Federal parks are permissible in states that allow concealed carry within state parks, Ca does allow concealed carry in state parks so fed parks are permissible within Ca. state boundaries but not within fed owned or leased buildings within the parks, 54 USC 104906(b) and www.parks.ca.gov, Ca PC 26010 10. Read up on states where you will travel before traveling there Sorry for the length but this should get you to places that go more in depth. Last edited by tawadc95; 11-20-2020 at 5:43 PM.. |
#69
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this thread started in 2009. so many things have shifted in 11 years. heck, 30 years ago a person could drive a car with a loaded handgun on the passenger seat then one day, just like that you became a felon for doing so. I lay odds some women over 80 still believe they can.
too many rules - no survival allowed. |
#70
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Not really - 2009 thread is just too out of date, so I'm locking it.
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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