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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 12-01-2014, 11:42 AM
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Question Effectively communicating your intentions when SHTF *updated

Current summary of ideas at bottom of this post.

I wanted to know your thinking when it comes to communicating your intentions when meeting strangers in a post SHTF environment.
With all of the discussion revolving around personal security and or best weapon choice/calibers BoB, GHB, INCH bag selections etc.. I thought about something different.
How do people avoid injury while trying to negotiate a possible barter during an approach to strangers?
Examples;
*Strangers are approaching your tactical villa and you respond how?
*You are forced out of your tactical villa and you are now the visitor to someone else's tactical villa.
Nobody really wants to get shot, so how do you ask to trade without getting injured/shot.
I'm interested in any verbal, non-verbal as well as any visuals that can signal your good intentions prior to any free for all hot lead exchanges with a a nut ball that thinks the entire county is now his.
What's your personal IFF (identification friend or foe) criteria?
************************************************** ****
Current summary of ideas:
*Verbally hail the camp/house/compound
*Dress appropriately, non-menacing
*No sneaking around the property aka; trespassing
*Obey posted signs
*White flag to display a willingness to parlay
*Carry FRS capable 2 way radio
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Last edited by FeuerFrei; 12-03-2014 at 8:02 PM.. Reason: updated idea summary
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:47 AM
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Don't come near my place armed.

Don't be sneaking around my place.

Obey every command we give you to the letter, like your life depended on it.

Obey the signs on the fences.

Don't do anything stupid.

Last edited by KevinB; 12-01-2014 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:53 AM
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Would a slung rifle on the back and hands raised be a good sign for you to make contact?
Do you send out a rep to "parlay"?
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:22 PM
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Since the sign on the fences will read " cross this fence with a weapon will get you killed" will make that moot.

If there has been trouble, you could find yourself standing in your skivvies if we don't know you. If who you are with have weapons they and you could get killed. Keep in mind this is a worse case option. We will always error on the safety for our family.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:24 PM
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If they are not one of yours shoot it and loot it .
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:33 PM
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:49 PM
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Hellooo the camp!

Could work.
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Old 12-01-2014, 1:09 PM
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Nothing wrong with a verbal. Kinda like asking the captain to come aboard.
Posted signs might work if you can see them or read english well enough.
Shoot n loot or signs suggesting a line of death seems harsh IMO.
While I am still in possession of a readable copy of the constitution I will still defend/enforce it to the best of my ability. We the people are the govt. You too.
Plugging strangers without due process is anarchy IMO.
So lets focus on how to initiate a friendly contact with a stranger.
White flag shown to parlay?
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Old 12-01-2014, 1:18 PM
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You watch Waterworld.
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Old 12-01-2014, 1:32 PM
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You cite the Constitution, the law of the land. It already can defend my family and property and keep the Government off my land without a warrant.

Didn't you say this was a SHTF scenario.
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Old 12-01-2014, 1:37 PM
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White Flag doesn't just mean 'surrender', it means "parley"/temp truce.

We dissed Saddam for taking all the possible White Flag items away from his troops, while we did the same.

We both did it supposedly to prevent any highly visible white underwear from crawling out of some guy trousers and onto his head to give away his position.

Not sure of cultural ramifications of waving extremely soiled undergarments at a possible enemy.
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Old 12-01-2014, 2:07 PM
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: http://youtu.be/HBSsbWVZzto
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Old 12-01-2014, 2:13 PM
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Some tried and true ideas:
1) White Flag
2) Freshly baked Toll House cookies - visible and via odors carried downwind
3) Bring puppies - bad guys never bring puppies

-Mark
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Old 12-01-2014, 2:51 PM
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^^ What if already ate cookies and puppies for lunch?

Seriously now. What if the shoe is on the other foot. How do you make an approach based upon the previous posts.
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Old 12-01-2014, 2:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Michael View Post
If they are not one of yours shoot it and loot it .
That idea won't last you for very long...
If you simply show hostility to anyone, you are making yourself a target. You also destroy any chance to trade or cooperate with other people

Last edited by Lugiahua; 12-01-2014 at 2:57 PM..
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Old 12-01-2014, 3:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
You cite the Constitution, the law of the land. It already can defend my family and property and keep the Government off my land without a warrant.

Didn't you say this was a SHTF scenario.
The constitution doesn't magically stop meaning anything post SHTF IMO.
My point is that you are now the "good guy" and now have a responsibility to do the right thing.
SHTF doesn't mean that morality or constitution go out the window either.
Or does it?
Getting back on track. With the verbal/visual ques that would you expect to give to begin an exchange for something you need.
We have "white flag of parlay" for a reasonable suggestion so far.
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Old 12-01-2014, 3:06 PM
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Barter Town

Leave all weapons at the gate.

Break a deal and face the wheel!
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Old 12-01-2014, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
That idea won't last you for very long...
If you simply show hostility to anyone, you are making yourself a target. You also destroy any chance to trade or cooperate with other people
Exactly.
That's what I mean when I suggest a strategy or some sort of attempt at trying to start a trade/barter business relationship of sorts.
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"Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
-- Frederick Douglass --

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Old 12-01-2014, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
Barter Town

Leave all weapons at the gate.

Break a deal and face the wheel!
Who runs barter town?

***Master Blaster!

That you?
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Old 12-01-2014, 3:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last American Hero View Post
White Flag doesn't just mean 'surrender', it means "parley"/temp truce.

We dissed Saddam for taking all the possible White Flag items away from his troops, while we did the same.

We both did it supposedly to prevent any highly visible white underwear from crawling out of some guy trousers and onto his head to give away his position.

Not sure of cultural ramifications of waving extremely soiled undergarments at a possible enemy.
The dirty drawers would be proof that the SHTF
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-- Frederick Douglass --

“I didn’t know I was a slave until I found out I couldn’t do the things I wanted.”
– Frederick Douglass --
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Old 12-01-2014, 3:50 PM
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Many a white flag has been used to injure the other party. Ask American GI's during the war with Japan or Germany.

You cited our Constitution not me.

I set the rules when you are on my property. You set the rules on yours.

I hate to break it to you, show up at my place now with a weapon on you and you will be less than welcome. LE and the Feds are the only people that are legally allowed to carry a weapon on my property without my permission.

Ask yourself what you would do if a guy showed up carrying a white flag with a rifle over his shoulder, would you let him approach ?.
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Old 12-01-2014, 4:48 PM
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I this is a good topic to bring up. It seems like many people live in a delusional land that they will/may never be evicted by a superior party. Or have to leave for health/safety reasons. What if you leave the safety of your compound to hunt or other such activity. And come across others. I think raising a white flag is appropriate and have someone provide an over watch all the same. Or establish an area with signs ouside of your perimeter with signs stating it is a trade zone with rules on how to safely barter
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Old 12-01-2014, 4:51 PM
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The questions in the OP are one of the many reasons why communities evolved. There are ways in which humans can communicate that are pretty much universal.

You have a number of homes, each secure in themselves, but the larger community has communal areas (roads, marketplaces, halls, etc, etc), where interaction is expected. Don't want interaction, stay away from the communal areas. Looking to interact -- every community frowns on killing someone in a communal area without cause. So that's where you start.

It's a common pattern across the planet. I have been to villages so remote that the villagers tried to rub the white coloring off my skin ("uhhhh, it ain't coloring..."), and still those villages had a number of common trails and gathering areas. The Incas and Mayans had them, the Inuit have them.

Another common pattern is that interaction away from those areas is subject to widely varying rules. IOW, you have gone off the cultural deep end. Might be fine, might cost you your life.

So if you want to interact away from that area, your best bet is to stop at the edge of the communal area closest to the non-communal area, and attempt to make contact from there. On the remote chance any of you people ever travel further than the Mississippi, keep in mind that the meaning of hand gestures varies wildly across cultures, but the meaning of facial expressions generally does not. If you don't get a response in a reasonable amount of time, assume you are not wanted and go away.

If it's an emergency, go to a portion of the communal area closest to the greatest number of non-communal areas, and scream bloody murder / make a gigantic ruckus for an extended period. If it's life or death, then go to somebody's private space -- your life is on the line anyways, but don't be surprised if your gamble comes up snake eyes
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Old 12-01-2014, 4:56 PM
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If I see someone with a digicam 5.11 backpack in the woods,
shooting drones out of the sky with a Mosin,
then I'll run up and fist bump 'em, 'cause we're on the same team.

They will accept my overture because I'll have my CG's screen name patch
on my body armor.
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Old 12-01-2014, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelrain82 View Post
I this is a good topic to bring up. It seems like many people live in a delusional land that they will/may never be evicted by a superior party. Or have to leave for health/safety reasons. What if you leave the safety of your compound to hunt or other such activity. And come across others. I think raising a white flag is appropriate and have someone provide an over watch all the same. Or establish an area with signs ouside of your perimeter with signs stating it is a trade zone with rules on how to safely barter
Thank you for "getting it"!
My point is that people need to think of a plan ahead of time and not just shoot anybody that crosses into their territorial bubble.
I also advocate a strategy with a "trust but verify" type of safety in place.
Slow un-menacing approach with your over watch in place seems reasonable.
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Old 12-01-2014, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
The questions in the OP are one of the many reasons why communities evolved. There are ways in which humans can communicate that are pretty much universal.

You have a number of homes, each secure in themselves, but the larger community has communal areas (roads, marketplaces, halls, etc, etc), where interaction is expected. Don't want interaction, stay away from the communal areas. Looking to interact -- every community frowns on killing someone in a communal area without cause. So that's where you start.

It's a common pattern across the planet. I have been to villages so remote that the villagers tried to rub the white coloring off my skin ("uhhhh, it ain't coloring..."), and still those villages had a number of common trails and gathering areas. The Incas and Mayans had them, the Inuit have them.

Another common pattern is that interaction away from those areas is subject to widely varying rules. IOW, you have gone off the cultural deep end. Might be fine, might cost you your life.

So if you want to interact away from that area, your best bet is to stop at the edge of the communal area closest to the non-communal area, and attempt to make contact from there. On the remote chance any of you people ever travel further than the Mississippi, keep in mind that the meaning of hand gestures varies wildly across cultures, but the meaning of facial expressions generally does not. If you don't get a response in a reasonable amount of time, assume you are not wanted and go away.

If it's an emergency, go to a portion of the communal area closest to the greatest number of non-communal areas, and scream bloody murder / make a gigantic ruckus for an extended period. If it's life or death, then go to somebody's private space -- your life is on the line anyways, but don't be surprised if your gamble comes up snake eyes
We are talking about the U.S.A. for now.
So if we travel into an unknown area, how do know what the communal areas are.
How did you signal to the indigenous people that you were not a threat?
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-- Frederick Douglass --

“I didn’t know I was a slave until I found out I couldn’t do the things I wanted.”
– Frederick Douglass --
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Old 12-01-2014, 5:35 PM
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don't dress in camo patterns unless you absolutely need to. thats the best way to communicate you are not a threat nonverbally. "normal clothes" subconciously communicate that you are not trying to hide, and do not carry tones of subterfuge IMO.

There is this online survival game called DayZ where meeting another player is always a very dangerous encounter because even if it's one on one, youre both struggling to survive....the guys that run around in gasmasks, kevlars, and camo patterns always set off an alarm in my head....so i just shoot them and loot them...never even bother to ask questions. lol
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Old 12-01-2014, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
Ask yourself what you would do if a guy showed up carrying a white flag with a rifle over his shoulder, would you let him approach ?.
I think I would hear him out, from a reasonable distance.

If he approaches openly and and is not sneaking around, I would consider that a +1.

If the situation is as described (SHTF) and he does not have a slung weapon, I would assume he is either:

A fool, or;
Is being sneaky.

I would hope not to be out and about in such a scenario, but if it were to happen I would avoid contact with others if at all possible. If forced to make contact, I would do so openly and without aggression. If you don't want to talk to me because I am openly carrying a weapon, I'll be on my way.

If you feel the need to attempt to disarm me simply because I am in your general vicinity carrying a defensive weapon, that is another situation entirely outside the subject of this thread.
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Last edited by Dutch3; 12-01-2014 at 8:08 PM..
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Old 12-01-2014, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch3 View Post
I think I would hear him out, from a reasonable distance.

If he approaches openly and and is not sneaking around, I would consider that a +1.

If the situation is as described (SHTF) and he does not have a slung weapon, I would assume he is either:

A fool, or;
Is being sneaky.

I would hope not to be out and about in such a scenario, but if it were to happen I would avoid contact with others if at all possible. If forced to make contact, I would do so openly and without aggression. If you don't want to talk to me because I am openly carrying a weapon, I'll be on my way.

If you feel the need to attempt to disarm me simply because I am in your general vicinity carrying a defensive weapon, that is another situation entirely and outside the subject of this thread.
The rule of war says when you are flying the white flag you are unarmed.

Its not like we are going to give you a choice.

Away from my home, I'm not at all sure what I would do. One thing for certain, I'm going to heed all the warnings from the people who do own or control the area. The same things goes for road blocks.

In closing, being old and set in my ways and thinking, I will do it my way. It is always a good idea to keep people who you don't know and their intentions away from you with weapons.

I already know all my friends.
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Old 12-01-2014, 8:16 PM
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Nobody has mentioned any electronic 2 way radio to attempt contact at a distance.
Example; You post on your tactical "GTF off the grass" signage an addendum that states "FRS freq # 3 is monitored at high noon each day for 1 hour". Or something to that effect.
What do you think? Most of us "preppers" have comms that can tag FRS freqs. Right?
Something else along those lines.
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– Frederick Douglass --
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Old 12-01-2014, 8:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
The rule of war says when you are flying the white flag you are unarmed.

Its not like we are going to give you a choice.

Away from my home, I'm not at all sure what I would do. One thing for certain, I'm going to heed all the warnings from the people who do own or control the area. The same things goes for road blocks.

In closing, being old and set in my ways and thinking, I will do it my way. It is always a good idea to keep people who you don't know and their intentions away from you with weapons.

I already know all my friends.
Warnings from locals are one thing. Being disarmed is another entirely.

I'd prefer to retain my weapon. If that isn't an option to have a conversation, then we don't need to have that conversation.

If someone shows up to talk a trade, he can retain his weapon as I will mine; he will also be covered by 2-3 rifles from inside the house.

I am also older and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Certainly, it has caused me to get screwed a time or two over the years, but it is a hard habit to give up. After getting tossed by those I considered "friends", my list is now down to 2, including my wife.

If it is SHTF and someone shows up looking to trade a bag of tomatoes for some ammo, I'll give it consideration. If he walks up with an attitude, being all "alpha male", telling me what I am going to do...well...I already have a hole dug for that.
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2014, 11:40 PM
Lone_Gunman Lone_Gunman is offline
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The rule of war says when you are flying the white flag you are unarmed.

Its not like we are going to give you a choice.

Away from my home, I'm not at all sure what I would do. One thing for certain, I'm going to heed all the warnings from the people who do own or control the area. The same things goes for road blocks.

In closing, being old and set in my ways and thinking, I will do it my way. It is always a good idea to keep people who you don't know and their intentions away from you with weapons.

I already know all my friends.

And you expect people to know and follow the rules of war in a post SHTF environment?
So, what would your response be to someone approaching your property, with a rifle slung, and shouting "HELLO THE HOUSE".

They are armed, they are not on your property, and they are attempting contact.
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  #33  
Old 12-02-2014, 5:16 AM
KevinB KevinB is offline
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Gunman, I live down a private road on my property. I have about 80 acres in grapes with a 10 foot deer fence all the way around the property to keep the deer from eating me out of my grapes. My children own most of the property around me. Some live here, some don't, we are a large Mormon family.

From my front gate I would have a very hard time hearing what anyone was saying. They would have to force open the gate just to get in. We do have a intercom at the gate so I guess we would talk that way. In a SHTF situation, nobody is coming inside the gate armed if I don't know them.

If you had bothered to read the early posts you would have seen where we will have signs posted about coming on the property armed. Right now there are no trespassing signs about every 200 feet.

Thing is about people you don't know is, you can be dead right or dead wrong about them. Dead being the key.
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  #34  
Old 12-02-2014, 9:19 AM
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FeuerFrei FeuerFrei is offline
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KevinB.
An intercom at the gate is common for a "compound/farm like yours.
UPS or utility service guy come calling you have a heads up.
If you can keep power up you're already in business. Wine to trade?
However it sounds like you're dug in and have no reason to communicate with strangers.
You're a good example of why people should steer clear of posted property of good people that practice a tighter level of security.
That's not a knock on you. You're entitled to whatever level of security that makes you sleep at night.
Back on the subject.
Anybody plan to monitor radio freqs to provide a plan "B". FRS I mentioned before?
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  #35  
Old 12-02-2014, 9:48 AM
Californio Californio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
KevinB.
An intercom at the gate is common for a "compound/farm like yours.
UPS or utility service guy come calling you have a heads up.
If you can keep power up you're already in business. Wine to trade?
However it sounds like you're dug in and have no reason to communicate with strangers.
You're a good example of why people should steer clear of posted property of good people that practice a tighter level of security.
That's not a knock on you. You're entitled to whatever level of security that makes you sleep at night.
Back on the subject.
Anybody plan to monitor radio freqs to provide a plan "B". FRS I mentioned before?
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  #36  
Old 12-02-2014, 6:27 PM
Lone_Gunman Lone_Gunman is offline
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
Gunman, I live down a private road on my property. I have about 80 acres in grapes with a 10 foot deer fence all the way around the property to keep the deer from eating me out of my grapes. My children own most of the property around me. Some live here, some don't, we are a large Mormon family.

From my front gate I would have a very hard time hearing what anyone was saying. They would have to force open the gate just to get in. We do have a intercom at the gate so I guess we would talk that way. In a SHTF situation, nobody is coming inside the gate armed if I don't know them.

If you had bothered to read the early posts you would have seen where we will have signs posted about coming on the property armed. Right now there are no trespassing signs about every 200 feet.

Thing is about people you don't know is, you can be dead right or dead wrong about them. Dead being the key.
I did read the earlier posts, but you hadn't detailed the extent of your property holdings. I was thinking your homestead was accessable from public streets.
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Old 12-02-2014, 9:59 PM
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Stormfeather Stormfeather is offline
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I think cooler heads will prevail, white flag for approaching properties, FRS radio if posted are all good ideas.
On the other hand, in a SHTF, even those with large property holdings with signs posted are going to realize sooner or later, that more than likely, fences and signs dont mean anything to a person who is hungry and needs to feed his starving children. Any aggression they use, even justified, means a tactical engagement, and nobody wins when that happens.
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  #38  
Old 12-02-2014, 10:30 PM
Lone_Gunman Lone_Gunman is offline
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Originally Posted by Stormfeather View Post
I think cooler heads will prevail, white flag for approaching properties, FRS radio if posted are all good ideas.
On the other hand, in a SHTF, even those with large property holdings with signs posted are going to realize sooner or later, that more than likely, fences and signs dont mean anything to a person who is hungry and needs to feed his starving children. Any aggression they use, even justified, means a tactical engagement, and nobody wins when that happens.
Agreed, at least I hope they will. If you decide to pop anyone that comes within hailing distance of your house at some point you're going to pop the wrong guy, someone that meant no harm, but who's loved ones are now righteously angry.

That's how you find yourself under siege, or burned out of your house.
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  #39  
Old 12-02-2014, 10:48 PM
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  #40  
Old 12-03-2014, 7:50 AM
KevinB KevinB is offline
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Originally Posted by Lone_Gunman View Post
Agreed, at least I hope they will. If you decide to pop anyone that comes within hailing distance of your house at some point you're going to pop the wrong guy, someone that meant no harm, but who's loved ones are now righteously angry.

That's how you find yourself under siege, or burned out of your house.
There has to be a point where you draw the line about people close to you with weapons, heck that happens right now. You are correct when you say desperate people do desperate things. That is the very reason I will never let people I don't know and trust with weapons close to me. If a person approaches my home and wants something or trade, they will follow my rules.

How people get from protecting their family to just shooting someone for no reason is asinine.

I guess it is the same mentality of I will just live off the land and take what I want from my neighbors. Pure folly.
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