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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 88 8.33%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 696 65.85%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 24 2.27%
I paid too much for my Membership! 47 4.45%
They will go out of business this year! 31 2.93%
Don't want anything to do with them! 171 16.18%
Voters: 1057. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2001  
Old 03-19-2014, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyNShoot View Post
I graduated. Missed DG by 11 points. This was my first time at FS, so graduating was my goal for the first time, particularly since I was focusing on learning Weaver vs my normal Isoc stance. Lead instructor was Craig Bishop, who I think did a great job.

8 DGs out of a class of 32, including a very talented 19 year old female piano player, her second DG (her dad DGd too). Oh, she also smoked the class in the man-on-man competition. Quiet, poised, and a killer shot with 40 S&W Glock.

Great job for your first time! 8 DGs is a lot so it must have been a very skilled class.
  #2002  
Old 03-19-2014, 7:48 PM
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Just missing DG is all the more reason to go back.
Bishop is old and crusty, but he's a heck of an instructor.
Going through the ID Course, all I can remember him yelling is "Get that support hand moving faster. No...faster. C'mon, you can move it faster than that."
Mind you, this is as I was shooting 7 yard controlled pairs in 1.3
Between him, Larry Mayer, Rick Morello, and Brad...they know how to wring the best out of you.
  #2003  
Old 03-19-2014, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Great job for your first time! 8 DGs is a lot so it must have been a very skilled class.
Yeah, Bishop said they usually see 0 to 2 DGs in the typical 4DHG class. There seemed to be a rather large percentage of repeat students as well as a couple of beefy "operators" who were tacticool attired (also really great guys). But there were several spouses and family members new to shooting, but by the end of the class, they seemed pretty comfortable and safe, and having a good time. There was one rather scary fellow who was a repeat student but needed pretty constant attention by his coaches and the line staff to be safe and follow directions during the drills.

Definitely will go back, probably for a skill builder later this year, now that I know the FS handling drill and malfunction "ballets".
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  #2004  
Old 03-19-2014, 9:27 PM
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I DG'ed under Bishop last month. My two sons DG'ed under him last year after he had taken both of them aside for some one on one instructions. He made quite an impression on them. Definitely a class act.

My youngest son does the "after action break dance".
  #2005  
Old 03-19-2014, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
I DG'ed under Bishop last month. My two sons DG'ed under him last year after he had taken both of them aside for some one on one instructions. He made quite an impression on them. Definitely a class act.

My youngest son does the "after action break dance".

Wow. 3 DG in the family!!! Congratz !!


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  #2006  
Old 03-19-2014, 10:07 PM
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Wow. 3 DG in the family!!! Congratz !!
Yeah but this old man is still trying to catch up to them young whipersnappers. While I was DG'ing handgun, both were in the Rifle course where the oldest (19) DG'ed and the younger one (17) won the man on man and barely missed DG.

I posted our challenge coins earlier.

  #2007  
Old 03-20-2014, 7:48 AM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
I DG'ed under Bishop last month. My two sons DG'ed under him last year after he had taken both of them aside for some one on one instructions. He made quite an impression on them. Definitely a class act.

My youngest son does the "after action break dance".
Bishop: "Door gunner on the space shuttle".
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  #2008  
Old 03-20-2014, 10:18 AM
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I like dreaming...

  #2009  
Old 03-21-2014, 11:07 PM
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Bulldozers and Scrapers are lined up outside the front gate! Ceremonial Ground Breaking this Sunday!
  #2010  
Old 03-22-2014, 10:23 AM
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What phase of construction will they be starting?
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  #2011  
Old 03-22-2014, 10:40 AM
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per an instructor last week, they are starting the 3rd group of shooting bays below shotgun canyon. unfortunately, some of the shooting positions at shotgun canyon have the new construction downrange, so they removed that from the shotgun class and we got to do the Wilson Wall instead. I enjoyed the wall, but would have prefered the canyon.
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  #2012  
Old 03-22-2014, 10:42 AM
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What phase of construction will they be starting?
The Ceremonial Phase : )
  #2013  
Old 03-22-2014, 4:10 PM
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Dozers and Scrapers at Front Sight Oh My!

  #2014  
Old 03-22-2014, 4:39 PM
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The Ceremonial Phase : )
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  #2015  
Old 03-22-2014, 10:50 PM
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I like dreaming...
At the rate things are happening, I think by the time all that is reality, we'd be wearing diapers or 6 ft under. LOL

I'm really bummed. My wife would rather go to Hawaii next month than FS...
  #2016  
Old 03-23-2014, 12:07 AM
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I've been reading a lot of the links posted on the first page and people keep mentioning "Vests". What type of vests are you gunners taking to Front Sight? I saw some on Amazon but I don't want to get the tactical looking vests and look like a Call of Duty freak.
Is there a thread that I missed that mention the different types of vest people recommend?

thanks
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  #2017  
Old 03-23-2014, 5:59 AM
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At the rate things are happening, I think by the time all that is reality, we'd be wearing diapers or 6 ft under. LOL

I'm really bummed. My wife would rather go to Hawaii next month than FS...

Hehe, had that same complaint so I took the family to Maui last November. Should be good for Front Sight trips this year and maybe even next year.
  #2018  
Old 03-23-2014, 6:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk556 View Post
I've been reading a lot of the links posted on the first page and people keep mentioning "Vests". What type of vests are you gunners taking to Front Sight? I saw some on Amazon but I don't want to get the tactical looking vests and look like a Call of Duty freak.
Is there a thread that I missed that mention the different types of vest people recommend?

thanks
Are you talking handgun or rifle? For handgun you don't really need a a tactical type vest but more of a concealment type vest to cover up your handgun/holster and mag/holster. A Columbia or 5.11 fleece or heavier type material vest will work. You don't want something too light, such as a windbreaker, although you can make that work by putting some weight in the pockets to help when you fling it back during your draw stroke.
  #2019  
Old 03-23-2014, 7:15 AM
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At the rate things are happening, I think by the time all that is reality, we'd be wearing diapers or 6 ft under. LOL

I'm really bummed. My wife would rather go to Hawaii next month than FS...
I'm pretty lucky, my wife really likes FS, as long as the class lets her use her (mine) PS 90, thats why we have 9 classes each this year!
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  #2020  
Old 03-23-2014, 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Are you talking handgun or rifle? For handgun you don't really need a a tactical type vest but more of a concealment type vest to cover up your handgun/holster and mag/holster. A Columbia or 5.11 fleece or heavier type material vest will work. You don't want something too light, such as a windbreaker, although you can make that work by putting some weight in the pockets to help when you fling it back during your draw stroke.
In a pistol class, I like to wear, what I wear, at home/on the streets. Train as you fight Don't try to do things that will help you score higher on the FS test, but not help you in real life. Your FS class is to prepare you for a self defense situation, not to prepare you for their test. The bad guys don't care that you DG'ed, what they worry about is how well you defend yourself and turn the tide on them.
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  #2021  
Old 03-23-2014, 7:21 AM
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The Ceremonial Phase : )
With construction going on, is it now time for: the Greatest Offer Ever? Maybe, Admiral/General Level? All classes: now, future, AND on other planets?
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  #2022  
Old 03-23-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk556 View Post
I've been reading a lot of the links posted on the first page and people keep mentioning "Vests". What type of vests are you gunners taking to Front Sight? I saw some on Amazon but I don't want to get the tactical looking vests and look like a Call of Duty freak.
Is there a thread that I missed that mention the different types of vest people recommend?

thanks
Almost any garment that covers the holstered gun will work.
Anything from button-down shirts with the sleeves cut off. to down parkas and everything in-between.
Of course, a lot of it will depend on the weather.
If the material is a bit flimsy, running a piece of duct tape down the front helps a lot.
An actual concealment vest isn't necessary.
The only reason I have one is because instructors have to have one, and I use mine for IDPA anyway.
I've seen students trying to "game the test" by wearing a light button down shirt that BARELY covered the butt of the pistol.
Again, if you're trying to DG then do what you have to.
If you're training for reality, then wear something you'd actually wear out in public.

Note: The "gamers" ended up clean on the shooting, but missed DG because they screwed up the reloads and malfunctions.

Last edited by Blackhorse2010; 03-23-2014 at 12:47 PM..
  #2023  
Old 03-23-2014, 2:00 PM
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and even changing garments during the class can mess you up. In my Feb class that was in the 40's, I was wearing a large jacket to stay warm, but on day 4, as it warmed up, I swapped to something lighter figuring it might help with my draw speed at the same time as not been so hot. ended up going back to the large jacket since I kept missing the thinner garment in my sweep.
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  #2024  
Old 03-23-2014, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk556 View Post
I've been reading a lot of the links posted on the first page and people keep mentioning "Vests". What type of vests are you gunners taking to Front Sight? I saw some on Amazon but I don't want to get the tactical looking vests and look like a Call of Duty freak.
Is there a thread that I missed that mention the different types of vest people recommend?

thanks
Someone started a "competition vest thread"

Here is the winner:

  #2025  
Old 03-23-2014, 4:49 PM
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WD-40 for when the Glock jams

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Quote:
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Someone started a "competition vest thread"

Here is the winner:

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  #2026  
Old 03-23-2014, 8:10 PM
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And so it begins...

  #2027  
Old 03-24-2014, 11:25 AM
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And the beat goes on!

They are going to complete Phase 3 ranges first that are located on the opposite side of the property. After that they will shut down the phase 2 ranges so that they can start construction of the hotel and the pavilion which are located next to those ranges.

  #2028  
Old 03-25-2014, 8:02 AM
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Just got back from the 4 day defensive handgun. I'll write a full report later, but for now...WOW. 1) I had no idea what the heck I was doing, and I can now pretty much drill a hole the size of a quarter from 3, 5 and 7 yards....if given enough time.

2) I knew I was there for the first time and it was a lot to learn, but I'm very cranky that I just couldn't get those controlled pairs off in 1.8 seconds. UGH. Every time I speed up I start pulling the trigger instead of pressing it. Our range master was David Jones, and he had a great story about coming in years ago and chunking the test...and he talked about using that test target for "angry dry practice" and then coming back and acing it. So my mission over the summer will be angry dry practice and the fastest presentation possible.

There were some guys that were doing the 4 day handgun, 2 days off, then the 4 day rifle. I think that's a great idea - I did NOT want to go home! If they had a 5 or 6 day class I think I would actually prefer that.

Even though you're mostly standing on a range and shooting, holding that muscle tension needed to be accurate takes a lot of fitness. A lot of people that weren't so fit were toast by day 2. But we loved it!!
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Old 03-25-2014, 9:17 AM
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Glad you enjoyed it.
Remember, the faster you get the support hand moving, the faster the presentation... and that means more time to shoot.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:54 AM
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Yeah but this old man is still trying to catch up to them young whipersnappers. While I was DG'ing handgun, both were in the Rifle course where the oldest (19) DG'ed and the younger one (17) won the man on man and barely missed DG.

I posted our challenge coins earlier.

I. want. one. of. each.

I know, it's just an evaluation of where you are...but I'm so dang competitive...

Good tip Blackhorse. My plan is to do some "angry dry practice" allllll summer, get a blazing fast presentation, practice my trigger control (which is perfect if I take my time, but I tend to want to MAKE it go boom when I'm in a hurry), and go back and do the 2 day skill builder in November and KILL the test. Kill. And maybe the man on man, too.
  #2031  
Old 03-25-2014, 12:36 PM
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No MAN on MAN action at a skill builder.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:40 PM
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Glad you had a great time. Yep FS is addicting.

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Last edited by acegunnr; 03-25-2014 at 2:20 PM..
  #2033  
Old 03-25-2014, 12:42 PM
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No MAN on MAN action at a skill builder.
Oh no! Bummer. Well - I'll just have to get crazy fast and do the 4 day again
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Old 03-25-2014, 6:43 PM
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do the 4 day rifle! its sure to be a hoot. 2 day was good enough for me, but im thinking since I learned I could survive the 4 day handgun I may be able to survive the 4 day rifle. yikes!
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Old 03-25-2014, 7:20 PM
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The ID Course mantra is "faster support hand!".
Then without telling us, they mess around with the times, shaving a few tenths from each target presentation.
(1.6 instead of 1.8, 1.8 instead of 2.0, etc...)
Maybe it's psychological, but even though the targets are facing for less time, it actually seems like they're facing for more time.
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Old 03-25-2014, 9:03 PM
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From the FS First Family Forum:

Today (03-24-2014), at about 0830, was the construction kickoff parade. While hundreds of students lined the entire length of the sidewalk, cheering & clapping, all of the heavy construction equipment rumbled slowly, single file, through the parking lot. While the dozers, scrapers, compactors, water trucks, back hoes, dirt haulers, etc. paraded through the parking lot, the little drone chopper buzzed merrily back & forth filming the whole affair.

Today (03-25-2014) was the ground breaking ceremony. Upon entering in the morning the student vehicles were directed to park at the east end of the precision rifle range (R-3). Then the students gathered, facing north, at the middle of R-3 and on the north edge. All the construction heavy equipment was parked, facing south, behind the students. Then the Front Sight CFO (I overheard someone say that he was the CFO), flanked by senior staff, dug up a shovel full of dirt, using a shovel whose handle had been replaced by an AR15 with muzzle end pointing toward the shovel blade. A waving red flag signaled the students to start cheering & clapping. Then the bulldozers, scrapers, etc. cranked up their engines and pulled away. Two little drone choppers buzzed around filming the whole event as did a guy in a construction lift positioned about 50 yards, or so, in front of the crowd. After the ceremony, all the students returned to their vehicles and then on to their respective ranges to start the day's training.
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Old 03-25-2014, 9:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhorse2010 View Post
The ID Course mantra is "faster support hand!".
Then without telling us, they mess around with the times, shaving a few tenths from each target presentation.
(1.6 instead of 1.8, 1.8 instead of 2.0, etc...)
Maybe it's psychological, but even though the targets are facing for less time, it actually seems like they're facing for more time.
Hmmm, is this only for ID course or also for the general skills test? Could it be that there are too many students who DG'ed? When my wife took a HGSB class in January, 8 students out of 36 got DG

Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Today (03-25-2014) was the ground breaking ceremony. Upon entering in the morning the student vehicles were directed to park at the east end of the precision rifle range (R-3). Then the students gathered, facing north, at the middle of R-3 and on the north edge. All the construction heavy equipment was parked, facing south, behind the students. Then the Front Sight CFO (I overheard someone say that he was the CFO), flanked by senior staff, dug up a shovel full of dirt, using a shovel whose handle had been replaced by an AR15 with muzzle end pointing toward the shovel blade. A waving red flag signaled the students to start cheering & clapping. Then the bulldozers, scrapers, etc. cranked up their engines and pulled away. Two little drone choppers buzzed around filming the whole event as did a guy in a construction lift positioned about 50 yards, or so, in front of the crowd. After the ceremony, all the students returned to their vehicles and then on to their respective ranges to start the day's training.
Wow, FS is really going ahead with their plan to build a hotel, huh? I wish them well. If anything, I'd like to see them make money since I'd hate to see them close.

Like the others said, the downside is that the canyons will be closed for classes. For me, those used to be the highlight of rifle classes. Wonder why they do not just build a berm between the canyons and the new development?
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Old 03-26-2014, 4:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Hmmm, is this only for ID course or also for the general skills test? Could it be that there are too many students who DG'ed? When my wife took a HGSB class in January, 8 students out of 36 got DG



Wow, FS is really going ahead with their plan to build a hotel, huh? I wish them well. If anything, I'd like to see them make money since I'd hate to see them close.

Like the others said, the downside is that the canyons will be closed for classes. For me, those used to be the highlight of rifle classes. Wonder why they do not just build a berm between the canyons and the new development?
It's only during the Instructor Development course. They use the regular test times during the multiple Skills Tests.
Practicing with reduced times makes the actual test times seem like an eternity.
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:01 AM
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Depending on the instructor and how well the class is doing they'll speed up the times towards the end of day 3 for 4ddhg classes. Just to emphasize how fast your support hand needs to be to get off two good shots within that timeframe.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:10 PM
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Hi,
Just wanted to pass along a FREE android app for dry practice that uses the par times in the FS 4DHG skills test. Didn't notice this latter fact when I initially downloaded it several weeks before my class.

http://drypractice.net/app/

Simple app that seems to work very well, and has built in par times for each of the shot and malfunction drills. Used this before class, at night during class. This time pressure was a great help. Now I take it to the range with me to continue time-based drills.
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