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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-07-2019, 9:03 PM
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Default US Is Not Highest In Mass Shootings.

https://conservativefiringline.com/u...J3n1mFGfjpOV9Y

After a weekend of mass shootings, liberals like Kamala Harris are screaming for the government to “DO SOMETHING.” They all like to claim that the United States is the only place where this kind of thing occurs, so we need more gun control. However, they are wrong. The US is not highest and ranks near the bottom of a list of countries that have mass shootings.

When all countries are taken into consideration, the US comes in 66th. Taking into consideration European countries alone, the United States ranks 12th. For a country of such high population, we have a pretty low rate of mass shootings. Mass shootings by population in 2019 is on this graph:

The World Population Review states:

“There is a common misconception that the United States is one of the top few countries, if not the top country, that have the highest mass shooting rates. But the truth of the matter is that the United States is actually number sixty-six on the list of countries in terms of mass shooting rates.

That finding rings true when all countries around the world are taken into consideration. Looking at the United States alongside all the countries in Europe alone, the United States has the twelfth highest mass shooting rate. A few of the European countries with a higher mass shooting rate than the United States include Russia, Norway, France, Switzerland and Finland.

It certainly seems that the United States has the highest mass shootings rate of all the land, but this has been proven untrue. In recent years, the Crime Prevention Research Center released information regarding the annual death rates as a result of mass shootings around the world.

Tragedies such as the shootings in El Paso and Dayton only add fuel to the liberal emotional reactions against guns. Some Democrats are already using the tragedies to get campaign funds. Kamala Harris, in specific, is using the deaths and brokenness of others in a disgusting attempt to get campaign money. Oh, and remember, she plans to give Congress 100 days to pass gun legislation or she’ll do an Executive Order and take them (USA Today). Remember that, America. And remember the US NOT highest in mass shootings.
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  #2  
Old 08-08-2019, 7:11 AM
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I BELIEVE the leader would be VENEZUELA.


THANKFULLY, the citizenry have been DIS-armed, so only the SOCIALIST gummint thugs are allowed to do the shooting there.


Good thing, too. It'd be a shame if any SOCIALISTS got hurt, while imposing the will of the people upon them...
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Old 08-09-2019, 9:07 AM
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I would also imagine that crime rates and other countries are far less likely to be carefully tracked and they are here. Imagine how many mass executions we see in Mexico from drug dealers.
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Old 08-09-2019, 1:26 PM
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This is completely meaningless and again, YET ANOTHER irrelevant "talking point" that actually makes us look like retarded mouth breathing idiots who have no real argument in our favor. Much like the "huhr huhr they think 'AR' stands for 'assault rifle' and 'magazines' are called 'clips'!" idiocy.

Was re-watching the Ken Burns "Vietnam" PBS show last night and the point was made about a war of attrition and public support: "When you tell the American public that the kill ratio to capture the hill was 1:20 in our favor, they DON'T CARE about the 20, they care about the 1".

Anyone who believes that anyone on the other side of the table will give a rat's butt that some other country has a higher rate of mass shootings is.... idaknow, either kidding themselves or entirely lacking in understanding of how people think.
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  #5  
Old 08-09-2019, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
This is completely meaningless and again, YET ANOTHER irrelevant "talking point" that actually makes us look like retarded mouth breathing idiots who have no real argument in our favor.
refuting a major talking point for the anti-2A crowd makes us look like retarded mouth breathing idiots

Where did you learn to debate?
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Old 08-09-2019, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tenemae View Post
refuting a major talking point for the anti-2A crowd makes us look like retarded mouth breathing idiots

Where did you learn to debate?
Evidently you didn't read the rest of my post, or did not understand it.

Let me restate. Let's say you convinced your average anti-2a person that the US did not lead the world in mass shootings.

It's not gonna make a single bit of difference to them. It doesn't make a single bit of difference to ME in fact. The over-arching theme is that here in America, people out doing everyday things are getting gunned down en-masse by people completely unrelated to them. You can chalk a once in a decade Whitman type of thing up to "random psycho very rare occurrence".
But this is happening multiple times a month now, with some very large body counts in some cases, including school-children.

This kind of **** should not happen THIS FREQUENTLY in America, and I frankly don't care that the s-hole of Mexico has more occurrences than we do. I only care about what is happening here. NOBODY is going to say, "OH! Gee! I didn't know that there were worse places for this than here. Well then, those Las Vegas and Sandy Hook things are really not a big deal".

Like I said in another post, these types of arguments are like catching your kid egging a house and their response is "Well... at least they were ORGANIC eggs!"
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Old 08-09-2019, 3:41 PM
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USMC is right facts, logic and statistics don't matter - only hyperbole and emotional reactionaryism counts these days. Unless one gets emotional about facts and logic then one get slapped with derogatory labels and called a kook.
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  #8  
Old 08-09-2019, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
USMC is right facts, logic and statistics don't matter - only hyperbole and emotional reactionaryism counts these days. Unless one gets emotional about facts and logic then one get slapped with derogatory labels and called a kook.
Well... I think facts DO matter. But some matter more than others.

My list of facts and their relative importance in descending order:
1) We live in America and America is not currently at war. Civilian populations of countries not at war are not generally subject to random large scale murder at increasing rates.
2) America IS experiencing an increased rate of random large scale murder.
3) Some other countries have higher rates of random large scale murder.

Guys, I am on your side, but we gotta spend our time pushing arguments and counterpoints THAT ARE MEANINGFUL TO THE OTHER SIDE.

Otherwise we'll end up with 2A repealed, grumbling to ourselves like mopey 7 years olds... "stupid gun grabbers... took away my guns.... everyone KNOWS there are more shootings in Kirkuk.... mumble grumble"

You might be right but you had the wrong debate.
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  #9  
Old 08-09-2019, 4:11 PM
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Long list of European "rampage killers"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...illers_(Europe)
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  #10  
Old 08-09-2019, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
Well... I think facts DO matter. But some matter more than others.

My list of facts and their relative importance in descending order:
1) We live in America and America is not currently at war. Civilian populations of countries not at war are not generally subject to random large scale murder at increasing rates.
2) America IS experiencing an increased rate of random large scale murder.
3) Some other countries have higher rates of random large scale murder.

Guys, I am on your side, but we gotta spend our time pushing arguments and counterpoints THAT ARE MEANINGFUL TO THE OTHER SIDE.

Otherwise we'll end up with 2A repealed, grumbling to ourselves like mopey 7 years olds... "stupid gun grabbers... took away my guns.... everyone KNOWS there are more shootings in Kirkuk.... mumble grumble"

You might be right but you had the wrong debate.
You lie. We are not experiencing increase in random large scale murder on a long term trend basis, and absolute numbers are utterly insignificant.
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  #11  
Old 08-09-2019, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
This is completely meaningless and again, YET ANOTHER irrelevant "talking point" that actually makes us look like retarded mouth breathing idiots who have no real argument in our favor. Much like the "huhr huhr they think 'AR' stands for 'assault rifle' and 'magazines' are called 'clips'!" idiocy.

Was re-watching the Ken Burns "Vietnam" PBS show last night and the point was made about a war of attrition and public support: "When you tell the American public that the kill ratio to capture the hill was 1:20 in our favor, they DON'T CARE about the 20, they care about the 1".

Anyone who believes that anyone on the other side of the table will give a rat's butt that some other country has a higher rate of mass shootings is.... idaknow, either kidding themselves or entirely lacking in understanding of how people think.
The argument about mass murders in America being something exceptional in the world comes from the other side. So they care at least enough to use it as an argument against guns in the US.

Also, the other side doesn't care about ANY rational arguments, whether this or any other ones, if these arguments don't support their narrative and beliefs. However, those in the middle might care about rational arguments.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2019, 6:31 PM
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Well some other countries their mass killers end up running the country and committing genocide. So, there is that.
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Old 08-09-2019, 6:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
Well... I think facts DO matter. But some matter more than others.

My list of facts and their relative importance in descending order:
1) We live in America and America is not currently at war. Civilian populations of countries not at war are not generally subject to random large scale murder at increasing rates.
2) America IS experiencing an increased rate of random large scale murder.
3) Some other countries have higher rates of random large scale murder.

Guys, I am on your side, but we gotta spend our time pushing arguments and counterpoints THAT ARE MEANINGFUL TO THE OTHER SIDE.

Otherwise we'll end up with 2A repealed, grumbling to ourselves like mopey 7 years olds... "stupid gun grabbers... took away my guns.... everyone KNOWS there are more shootings in Kirkuk.... mumble grumble"

You might be right but you had the wrong debate.
Well, and here's the problem: your beliefs are far from reality.

1. We don't have random large scale murders at increasing rates. The rates are not increasing, and the murders aren't large scale (the scope of the problem is under 1% of all murders).

2. America is NOT experiencing an increased rate of random scale murder.

3. America is considerably below world's average when it comes to random large scale murder.

Facts still matter. If they don't, if any lie the other side says is accepted unchallenged (the way you've accepted it), then it doesn't really matter what we mouthbreathers say. Although coming from a guy who believes lies without challenging them, calling people 'mouthbreathers' is very ironic
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Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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Last edited by nick; 08-09-2019 at 6:53 PM..
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  #14  
Old 08-10-2019, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
...
Guys, I am on your side, but we gotta spend our time pushing arguments and counterpoints THAT ARE MEANINGFUL TO THE OTHER SIDE.
I have no doubt that you are on our side. But, do not delude yourself in thinking that there are any arguments that we could make that would be meaningful to the other side. Simply put, they do not want us to have guns and I am not willing to give up any of mine or any of my 2A rights, so there is no room for agreement. Accordingly, it is a waste of time to even discuss our differences with the other side.
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Old 08-10-2019, 11:00 AM
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I have no doubt that you are on our side. But, do not delude yourself in thinking that there are any arguments that we could make that would be meaningful to the other side. Simply put, they do not want us to have guns and I am not willing to give up any of mine or any of my 2A rights, so there is no room for agreement. Accordingly, it is a waste of time to even discuss our differences with the other side.
I understand your position, but you have to understand that there are A LOT more of "them" than there are of "US". We WILL eventually LOSE and LOSE big. And... history shows, it is usually a REPUBLICAN that signs the bill stripping us of the rights.

Last edited by CAL.BAR; 08-10-2019 at 11:07 AM..
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Old 08-10-2019, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
This is completely meaningless and again, YET ANOTHER irrelevant "talking point" that actually makes us look like retarded mouth breathing idiots who have no real argument in our favor. Much like the "huhr huhr they think 'AR' stands for 'assault rifle' and 'magazines' are called 'clips'!" idiocy.

Was re-watching the Ken Burns "Vietnam" PBS show last night and the point was made about a war of attrition and public support: "When you tell the American public that the kill ratio to capture the hill was 1:20 in our favor, they DON'T CARE about the 20, they care about the 1".

Anyone who believes that anyone on the other side of the table will give a rat's butt that some other country has a higher rate of mass shootings is.... idaknow, either kidding themselves or entirely lacking in understanding of how people think.
Settle down angry man. This is why I don't frequent Calguns like I used to. Reminds me when a patriot suggested a rally at the state capital and the poor guy was viciously shot down by others. Any information is good and if its relevant to the 2A, then we share it at the opportune time. I shared it at the lunch table at work with two co-workers who thought the U.S. led the world in mass shootings after a news report that came on the lunchroom TV on the two shootings. It was a positive experience. Let's have respectful and civil conversations on this forum.
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Old 08-10-2019, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by javalos View Post
Settle down angry man. This is why I don't frequent Calguns like I used to. Reminds me when a patriot suggested a rally at the state capital and the poor guy was viciously shot down by others. Any information is good and if its relevant to the 2A, then we share it at the opportune time. I shared it at the lunch table at work with two co-workers who thought the U.S. led the world in mass shootings after a news report that came on the lunchroom TV on the two shootings. It was a positive experience. Let's have respectful and civil conversations on this forum.
I agree with "javalos", but I'm a new member (not a young member @ 61yrs). I have seen more angry "eating of our own" then civil discussion. The OP's original post might not change the mind of a hard core lib, but those on the fence in the middle trying to make the "right choice", it could be what it takes... Just MHO...
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:38 PM
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The OP's original post might not change the mind of a hard core lib, but those on the fence in the middle trying to make the "right choice", it could be what it takes... Just MHO...
I agree.

I have successfully convinced/persuaded some anti-gun people to either be neutral or be somewhat in favor of guns by using facts that I could back up with citations.
The "mushy middle" of American politics is quite large, actually. It's just that the anti-gun extremists are very loud, so we think that they dominate the conversation. When we run into them, we know there's no way to change their minds.

Usually, the "mushy middle" are people that I meet through the workplace. I might be having lunch with one of them and they might ask what I do for fun. I tell them I shoot, and then they say something that reveals them to be somewhat anti-gun. But they're not informed and they're not committed to their position. Because we have a good working relationship (enough to grab lunch together), I can talk with them candidly and lay out facts that they receive in good faith. Sometimes I can swing them over to being slightly pro-gun or at least undo their anti-gun beliefs (which are usually just repetitions of lies they hear on the leftist mainstream media).
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Old 10-21-2019, 8:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
Evidently you didn't read the rest of my post, or did not understand it.

Let me restate. Let's say you convinced your average anti-2a person that the US did not lead the world in mass shootings.

It's not gonna make a single bit of difference to them. It doesn't make a single bit of difference to ME in fact. The over-arching theme is that here in America, people out doing everyday things are getting gunned down en-masse by people completely unrelated to them. You can chalk a once in a decade Whitman type of thing up to "random psycho very rare occurrence".
But this is happening multiple times a month now, with some very large body counts in some cases, including school-children.

This kind of **** should not happen THIS FREQUENTLY in America, and I frankly don't care that the s-hole of Mexico has more occurrences than we do. I only care about what is happening here. NOBODY is going to say, "OH! Gee! I didn't know that there were worse places for this than here. Well then, those Las Vegas and Sandy Hook things are really not a big deal".

Like I said in another post, these types of arguments are like catching your kid egging a house and their response is "Well... at least they were ORGANIC eggs!"
The reason why it is important is because we need to understand the cause to solve the problem. If countries with very strict gun laws have more mass shootings (or homicides in general) then that refutes the policy decision to ban guns.

I personally agree that more guns is correlated with more gun homicides. But our homicide rate is extremely high because of certain subpopulations.

The gun homicide rate is around 4/100,000. But 12% of the population have a rate of 21/100K. The other 88% have a rate of 1.5%.

So is the problem guns or something else?

I think the mass shootings are mainly *caused* by media coverage of mass shootings. The media long ago agreed to not cover suicides because they spur additional suicides. This is a proven phenomenon.

Quote:
It’s no secret to mental health experts that exposure to suicide, either directly or through media and entertainment, may make people more likely to resort to suicidal behaviors themselves. The phenomenon even has a name: suicide contagion.

And a new paper, published Monday in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, says some specific journalistic practices — such as including lots of details about a death by suicide, or glamorizing these incidents — may make suicide contagion worse.
Less than 200 homicides a year are done with any rifle (let alone "assault rifles"). Banning them will do nothing for the homicide rate.

The main issue with homicides is in the black community. Here are my solutions:

1) allow people on welfare to get jobs while only losing a fraction of welfare benefits. So make an extra dollar, lose 10-20 cents of welfare benefits. Most if not all welfare recipients will start working. Once you have lost those benefits you cant get them back until you have no income. This bimodal system pushes people forward and makes it hard to go backwards.

2) Allow people on welfare to get married and live together. Welfare incentivizes single parenthood, because if there is a capable father in the home you cant get welfare.

3) legalize all drugs, expunge all drug offenses, tax and use the money for treatment. Too many african americans are incarcerated for drug offenses. Once they have been in jail it is very hard for them to get a regular job

4) Make education as exciting and lucrative as sports. Create govt sponsored competitions for education with big dollar payouts by region. Pay kids for doing well in school (or for even showing up). Guaranteed govt jobs for the best and brightest from each region.

Last edited by atxgun; 10-21-2019 at 9:07 AM..
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Old 10-21-2019, 9:41 AM
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Our woke media will not cover this.
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Old 10-22-2019, 12:06 AM
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Our woke media will not cover this.
Yup, Not a chance
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