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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 11-02-2019, 2:33 PM
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This has been an intreesting discussion. Thanks for all the great info!

I closely inspected the bolt head on my Savage .223 yesterday. It is nice and smooth, and flat.
-p
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  #42  
Old 11-07-2019, 6:25 AM
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Tightening the bolt body accomplishes even less than it does on the R700 because the cocking piece is at 3:00 instead of 6:00 on the Remington. It's pushing the bolt into the opposite lug raceway, not on to the upper bearing surface. On top of that, the bolt head floats. Spoiler alert, when the gun is fired, the pressure holding the bolt body up or over is released and the bolt body is floating when the primer goes off. Yes, tight bolts feel nice to operate.

I missed this earlier.
In the old days it was common to see a Savage type floating bolthead on a 700 Remington. It was cheaper/easier to sleeve or double sleeve the bolt body so it was short lived.
And not really a spoiler alert the sleeved double sleeved guns outshoot the unsleeved guns even though the bullet is out of the barrel before the gun moves 0.050 of an inch.
The Borden "Bumps" found that you can combine a loose fitting bolt with a tight lockup and get the best of both worlds.
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  #43  
Old 11-08-2019, 8:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
And not really a spoiler alert the sleeved double sleeved guns outshoot the unsleeved guns even though the bullet is out of the barrel before the gun moves 0.050 of an inch.
Do you have a test that demonstrates this?

Vaughn was pretty dismissive of the practice of tightening bolt bodies in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts". He used a Remington 721 for his testing, which has a fixed bolt head like the 700.

In the same chapter that he disses bolt tightening, he demonstrates that the underhung recoil lug and asymmetry in the receiver holes ahead of the bolt lugs are the larger issues.

On a Savage, it has absolutely no potential value because of the floating bolt head and the firing pin loads the bolt body into the opposite bolt raceway.

The 700 is actually closer to the Savage than the tight bolt crowd thinks. The simple demonstration is to cock an empty R700 and try to move the bolt up and down. It's pretty tight. Fire the empty gun and try to move the bolt again. Now it rattles like a Savage. That's the condition it goes off in. When the firing pin hits the primer, the whole R700 bolt is floating just like the Savage bolt head, not preloaded by the trigger and firing pin. As the bullet starts moving, the bolt thrust from the cartridge loads the bolt into the lugs, not the trigger and firing pin.

When you lap the lugs on a R700, you pull the firing pin, right?
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  #44  
Old 11-08-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
Do you have a test that demonstrates this?

Vaughn was pretty dismissive of the practice of tightening bolt bodies in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts". He used a Remington 721 for his testing, which has a fixed bolt head like the 700.

In the same chapter that he disses bolt tightening, he demonstrates that the underhung recoil lug and asymmetry in the receiver holes ahead of the bolt lugs are the larger issues.

On a Savage, it has absolutely no potential value because of the floating bolt head and the firing pin loads the bolt body into the opposite bolt raceway.

The 700 is actually closer to the Savage than the tight bolt crowd thinks. The simple demonstration is to cock an empty R700 and try to move the bolt up and down. It's pretty tight. Fire the empty gun and try to move the bolt again. Now it rattles like a Savage. That's the condition it goes off in. When the firing pin hits the primer, the whole R700 bolt is floating just like the Savage bolt head, not preloaded by the trigger and firing pin. As the bullet starts moving, the bolt thrust from the cartridge loads the bolt into the lugs, not the trigger and firing pin.

When you lap the lugs on a R700, you pull the firing pin, right?
I have Vaughn's book.
Have you read Greg Tannel's take on bolt tilt?

Here is my take on 700 bolt clearance:
Even though the bolt is LOADED by the cocking piece, the fixed bolt head causes the lugs to lift off the lug abutments due to the bolt sitting at an angle in the receiver bore.
When you release the striker, that loading goes away as you note.
When you release the striker, a great amount of force gets applied to the bolt lugs and reciever abutments by the consumption of powder and pushing a bullet down the bore.
That force causes the lugs to want to be flat to each other.
Gravity makes the bolt body want to FALL when the loading goes away that WAS holding the bolt body against the top of the reciever.
So when the loading goes away, you have gravity AND firing forces acting on the bolt.
Since there is room to move in the reciever, you have turned the bolt body into a tuning fork.
The bolt body bounces up and down in the reciever and that sets off an additional vibration harmonic through the barrel.

Reducing the clearance between bolt body and fixed bolt reduces the amplitude of that harmonic.

Even the firing pin smacking into the bolt creates a dramatic vibration.
The sloppiness of a fixed bolt within the reciever determines if that vibration will throw the gun off target or not.
Customers always want to know HOW MUCH accuracy truing a 700 is going to give.
There is no absolute answer because every gun is different.

One thing I tell them to do is to dry fire their gun and watch the crosshairs while firing.
Some guns will sit perfectly on target while others will jump 1/4moa or more.
The guns that jump the most will benefit the most as tightening up the bolt clearance reduces the jump.
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  #45  
Old 11-08-2019, 4:02 PM
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The test is your target. Shoot one group with a tight bolt and a second group with a factory bolt.
We need to get you to our local range and behind a couple of my guns.
As Randall posted it's about things slapping around while the bullet is in the bore. You can put a live round in your gun and measure the difference from the top of the bolt shroud in a loaded condition and a fired condition.
For those looking for the thrill of there life grab hold of the middle of your barrel while someone fires the gun.
It's something you usually do once. Try it with a factory bolt and a tight bolt.
I think Al Harrell did some modeling of a loose fitting bolt on his website but it might have been on one of the more accuracy oriented websites after he posted some of his results.
The pictures show a couple of my BAT actions and recoil lugs are not used. The one in the picture is just there so I don't lose it. The more accuracy oriented the gun becomes the less the chance it will use a sandwiched recoil lug.

https://youtu.be/EiVv_vO9MI8

Here is a crummy video showing the bolt fit we are talking about. On a sloppy fitting bolt the firing pin spring will try and lift the bolt body up on a 700 action because both the cocking piece and the trigger use slanted engagement points. Some actions use 90 degree contact and this isn't an issue.
When the gun goes bang and that 50,000 psi hits the boltface it violently rattles the gun.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 11-08-2019 at 4:35 PM..
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  #46  
Old 11-15-2019, 10:41 AM
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------------------------------------UPDATE----------------------------


heard back from savage...…..

they reamed the chamber
polished the chamber
replaced ALL extraction components

are awaiting a firing test..
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  #47  
Old 11-15-2019, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevins750 View Post
------------------------------------UPDATE----------------------------


heard back from savage...…..

they reamed the chamber
polished the chamber
replaced ALL extraction components

are awaiting a firing test..
Sounds like the belt and suspenders approach, it'll probably be fixed when you get it back.
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  #48  
Old 11-15-2019, 12:29 PM
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Lynn & Randall,

I'll add trying Bordon Bumping to my list of tests to do someday. I'm still skeptical, Vaughn was the guy with the test instrumented receiver.
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  #49  
Old 11-15-2019, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
Lynn & Randall,

I'll add trying Bordon Bumping to my list of tests to do someday. I'm still skeptical, Vaughn was the guy with the test instrumented receiver.
I did them by tig welding bumps and then OD grinding them back to the diameter I wanted.
Works really slick.
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  #50  
Old 11-16-2019, 8:57 AM
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Target-223-1.jpg

Here's some cherry picked groups from a couple of range days in October/early November.

Savage Model 10 Trophy Hunter XP
Wood stock
.223 Remington
22" Barrel
Leupold 4.5x14 VX3
Factory Federal Fusion MSR, 62 gr.

Distance: 100 meters
Weather: Clear, cool, calm wind.

(The center bullseye is 1" dia.)

This is a bone stock rifle. I was using Caldwell bag rests. I am quite happy with this rifle.
--P
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  #51  
Old 11-19-2019, 9:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The test is your target. Shoot one group with a tight bolt and a second group with a factory bolt.
I gave that a try yesterday.



Didn't see a change.

The gun is a 300wm Remington 5R that had the same problem the OP did with his Savage, no primary extraction. The bolt was also the roughest I've ever felt. I smoothed it out some, but it's never going to be right.

I pulled the barrel and opened the counterbore to clear a PTG bolt with a M16 extractor. That bolt is from my first URSA gun. I have another factory 300wm bolt that has plenty of primary extraction. The bolt raceway on this gun measures 0.7035" with a snap gauge. The PTG bolt is 0.6995", and the Remington bolt is 0.692". Those 2 bolts headspace to within .002", but they're about .004" shorter than the bolt that came with the gun.

I took 0.006" off the shoulder of the barrel to bring the headspace down to the minimum with the replacement bolts. The go gauge is a little tight on the longer bolt, but it closes without much effort. I lapped the barrel/receiver threads and the receiver/recoil lug/barrel shoulder, then torqued it back together at 75 ft-lbs.

The best group was about 3/4 moa after reassembly, just over 1 moa had been it's previous best with the same box of ammo. The barrel had 36 rounds through it before I started fireforming a box of 100. The barrel sped up 34 fps as the 100 were fired.



That was shot with the Remington bolt.

The load was for fireforming and pretty mild. Weight sorted Winchester brass, H4831, 210, and 208 Amax 5 thou into the lands.



It's better ammo than you can buy, but not tuned to the gun in any way. I have no idea why the velocity spread is so low. It was that way all the way through the box of 100.

I'll repeat the test as I develop a load, but so far there is no discernible difference with the tighter bolt.
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  #52  
Old 11-19-2019, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post

Customers always want to know HOW MUCH accuracy truing a 700 is going to give.
There is no absolute answer because every gun is different.
When I started building precision rifles as a hobby, I had a plan. I thought it was a good plan. I was going to change 1 thing at a time and test the accuracy at each step.

I started with a short action Stevens 200. I rebarreled it in 6xc with a budget unlapped Shilen blank that was $160 at the time. The idea was to try a better barrel next, and start in on receiver work after that.

This is what happened:



No truing or tight bolts, an engineer running the lathe, and a 2# trigger.

A few chambering projects later, I accepted that my old 300wm Sendero was never going to shoot and was just another donor gun. It would shoot 3 into a moa and then start drifting towards 5:00 at about a 1/4" a shot. I thought it was the barrel. I set the receiver up for a short true with a mandrel in the bolt bore, then checked the face and periphery. The face was out .003", and it was a low spot without a corresponding high spot 180 degrees away. I'm not sure how that happened, it didn't look like it was dropped, but Remington probably made a bunch of them that way that day. I'm pretty sure if I had not trued it, the new barrel would have had problems similar to the old.

Vaughn had a fixation on the tenon threads, and the Sendero experience reinforced that for me.

I think the answer to how much accuracy truing gives is it gives nothing, unless it does, and we're not going to have much of an idea until we're ready to remove metal.
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  #53  
Old 11-19-2019, 6:31 PM
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Shaun neither of your bolts is what is called a tight fit and your model 200 wouldn't show any improvement due to the floating bolthead..
If sloppy fitting bolts won matches shooters would be using them.
We need to get you to the range and shooting from a mechanical rest off of a concrete bench.
Did you try holding the barrel?
https://youtu.be/EiVv_vO9MI8
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2019, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I have Vaughn's book.
Have you read Greg Tannel's take on bolt tilt?

Here is my take on 700 bolt clearance:
Even though the bolt is LOADED by the cocking piece, the fixed bolt head causes the lugs to lift off the lug abutments due to the bolt sitting at an angle in the receiver bore.
When you release the striker, that loading goes away as you note.
When you release the striker, a great amount of force gets applied to the bolt lugs and reciever abutments by the consumption of powder and pushing a bullet down the bore.
That force causes the lugs to want to be flat to each other.
Gravity makes the bolt body want to FALL when the loading goes away that WAS holding the bolt body against the top of the reciever.
So when the loading goes away, you have gravity AND firing forces acting on the bolt.
Since there is room to move in the reciever, you have turned the bolt body into a tuning fork.
The bolt body bounces up and down in the reciever and that sets off an additional vibration harmonic through the barrel.

Reducing the clearance between bolt body and fixed bolt reduces the amplitude of that harmonic.

Even the firing pin smacking into the bolt creates a dramatic vibration.
The sloppiness of a fixed bolt within the reciever determines if that vibration will throw the gun off target or not.
Customers always want to know HOW MUCH accuracy truing a 700 is going to give.
There is no absolute answer because every gun is different.

One thing I tell them to do is to dry fire their gun and watch the crosshairs while firing.
Some guns will sit perfectly on target while others will jump 1/4moa or more.
The guns that jump the most will benefit the most as tightening up the bolt clearance reduces the jump.
On your suggestion, I looked up Greg Tannel's take on bolt tilt. It was interesting, but I think he was selective in his reading of Vaughn. My take on what happens after the sear drops is similar to Greg's, the rear of the bolt starts down. Vaughn appears to believe that the rear of the bolt stays at the top of the action because he machined the tilt into the receiver lugs. No before and after testing though. Greg describes the bolt as falling. From the timing of the falling he describes, it sounds like he thinks only gravity is causing the bolt to drop. I'm on the other side of Greg from Vaughn. The bolt drops, and several times faster than gravity would drive it because the ejector is in the top lug. It can't overpower the firing pin spring, but it moves the bolt a lot faster than gravity. On the front of the bolt, the extractor pushes the case up in the bolt. When it snaps over a case in the barrel, the extractor forces the bolt down. So the front of the bolt is likely at the bottom of the raceway because gravity, the cocking piece, and extractor are all holding it there. After the cartridge is fired, the front of the bolt is pinned back into the lugs in whatever radial location it starts in, which is the bottom of the raceway. If the lugs are square to the centerline, and not machined or lapped to the cocked angle, the bolt is pinned on the bottom of the raceway for it's entire length. If the lug faces are adjusted to the cocked angle, the back of the bolt pops back up after firing. From Vaughn's instruments, which version happens is of no consequence.

Even if the tuning fork theory was correct, Vaughn tests the influence of firing pin fall on barrel vibration in a later chapter and demonstrates the amplitudes produced are insignificant. Any vibration of the bolt would be far less significant than the firing pin fall.

My position is if the bolt radial clearance is within the normal range for factory bolts, the bolt is pinned to the bottom of the raceway while the bullet is in the barrel regardless of the clearance and changing it isn't going to be noticed on target.

I tried your dry fire test on some of my rifles. I'm not sure it's testing what you think it is. None of the rifles I've rebarreled gave any movement, even those that weren't trued, and none of them have tight bolts. All the rifles I tested that haven't been rebarreled did. The crosshair movement went away if I repeated the test with an empty case that had been fired in that gun. I think the test is at least heavily influenced by how free the firing pin fall is and the bolt end shake. When I fit a new barrel, even if I don't true the action, I reduce the clearance between the end of the bolt and the barrel to 7-8 thousandths. It's generally a lot larger with factory barrels.
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  #55  
Old 11-24-2019, 9:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
your model 200 wouldn't show any improvement due to the floating bolthead..
Sounds like you're becoming a Savage fan?

This is another 6XC in a RPR with a one piece bolt.



Again, factory bolt and untrued. This one was off a bipod.

I do think you're taking a chance if you don't true the action, and after the barrel is installed is too late.
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  #56  
Old 11-24-2019, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
I think the test is at least heavily influenced by how free the firing pin fall is and the bolt end shake.
That's interesting.
I'll have to play with this some more.
I also tighten up the endshake when fitting new barrels and don't see the jump on guns I have rebuilt.
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  #57  
Old 12-04-2019, 6:43 PM
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Got the rifle back from savage today. Looks like they left about 10 fired casings with the shipment.

Think I will measure and compare them to my original fired cases. I received a printout of the work done and they reamed and polished a "tight chamber".
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  #58  
Old 12-05-2019, 6:49 AM
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What was the turn around time with Savage?

It was shooting pretty good when it left. Let us know if the problem is fixed and if it still shoots well.
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  #59  
Old 12-05-2019, 9:01 AM
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What was the turn around time with Savage?

It was shooting pretty good when it left. Let us know if the problem is fixed and if it still shoots well.
October 29 drop off


December 4 pick up.
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  #60  
Old 12-06-2019, 4:40 AM
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Nice turn around and people say Savage CS sucks ..As an Ashbury Owner I agree nice rigs welcome to the kool aid :<).. Taken her back out yet and how's it feel?
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:03 AM
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Got her back yesterday. Shot good before the work was done and still shooting good today.

I am no pro shooter, I don't weigh brass, i don't sort bullets at 100 yards. I am left handed shooting a right handed rifle so I break my position on every shot. I don't wait between shots just drop in a round and shoot a group shot after shot

I am not touting my shooting abilities just the rifles ability. These aren't one hole groups but pretty good for a factory barrel with about 45-50 rds down it.

BTW.......the action is as buttery soft as a savage can get....it throws the spent casing out easily.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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Rifle in question, pictured below.
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  #63  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:00 AM
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nice
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:54 AM
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Glad to hear this had a soft landing.

It sounds like they did more than just open the chamber.....
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Old 12-06-2019, 1:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
Glad to hear this had a soft landing.

It sounds like they did more than just open the chamber.....
Agreed. Looks like a sweet shooter. Enjoy!
-P
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  #66  
Old 12-06-2019, 2:23 PM
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kevins750 kevins750 is offline
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Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
Glad to hear this had a soft landing.

It sounds like they did more than just open the chamber.....
I wish I could send a couple more in for "warranty" work. It is as smooth as my
Savage blue printed magnum action.
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Old 12-06-2019, 8:43 PM
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Switchbarrel Switchbarrel is offline
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Default Shooting left handed

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Originally Posted by kevins750 View Post
Rifle in question, pictured below.
Convert the windage cable/knob on your rest over to left handed. It will make life (adjustments) easier.

-Rick
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  #68  
Old 12-06-2019, 9:08 PM
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Convert the windage cable/knob on your rest over to left handed. It will make life (adjustments) easier.

-Rick
You know I thought about it but I never change windage with that. I just pick that heavy pig up and move it. I have seen some mods where the "knob" is on the end of the carriage assembly, removing the cable all together. The towel is there because I shoot my 243 bench rifle with the bald eagle and it has a much wider forearm
And I don't want to change "my settings".
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Last edited by kevins750; 12-06-2019 at 9:11 PM..
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Old 12-06-2019, 9:48 PM
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You know I thought about it but I never change windage with that. I just pick that heavy pig up and move it.
Your choice. Only takes about 10 minutes to reverse it.

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Old 12-07-2019, 9:27 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
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Shaun Brady
I wasn't following this thread so missed what you posted earlier.
On a 700 the cocking piece has a 45 degree angle on it. The top lever on the trigger also has a 45 degree angle on it.
When the bolt is slid forward those two surfaces along with a 20+ pound firing pin spring try to force the bolt upward not on the bottom of the raceway.
The locking lugs are not making full contact because the rear of the bolt is tilted upwards..
The ejector is to weak to have any influence and most tight bolts don't even use one.
When the trigger is touched the top lever drops and the pressure from the firing pin spring forces the bolt downwards. Gravity plays no role at all and to test it roll the gun upside down and make your measurements. The bolt doesn't roll around in the receiver when cocked. It is pinned by the pressure of the firing pin spring.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 12-07-2019 at 9:41 PM..
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