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  #41  
Old 02-23-2011, 7:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
I don't know if they kept the same hours on the new FFL or not, but they are still closed Sundays. If they decide to start opening on Sundays, a new FFL won't be required, but they would not be obligated to perform PPTs.
Just curious, where did you get this information?
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  #42  
Old 02-23-2011, 8:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a
dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any
additional fees.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:

(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the
requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and
12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a
personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold
or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is
returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or
transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have
sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a
record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry
provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer
shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the
firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the
person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other
information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does
not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required
to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

Not the section in bold. Now this is straight from the CA DOJ web page.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

" 1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d)) "
Maybe I am just blind, but I did not see anything in that section regarding the days and hours that dealers must conduct PPTs, nor any language preventing them from limiting the days and times they conduct them.

Not advocating for it or trying to be a Richard Cranium...but I really am interested in seeing the PC.
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Absolutely, I've refused sale before.
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  #43  
Old 02-23-2011, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier415 View Post
Maybe I am just blind, but I did not see anything in that section regarding the days and hours that dealers must conduct PPTs, nor any language preventing them from limiting the days and times they conduct them.

Not advocating for it or trying to be a Richard Cranium...but I really am interested in seeing the PC.
That's the problem...there is no language which expressly states when or if the hours can be limited...it just says the dealer shall act promptly when a request is made. Oh, there is language which says the request must be submitted in writing, filled out with all the details of the transaction and signed by the buyer and seller. It's a great state we live in.

Instead of trying to be joe bully who's going to "lay down the law" to the FFL, simply leave, call DOJ, tell them you were refused, and find another dealer...then let it go...why get in a twist over it???
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  #44  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:25 AM
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Personally, I would agree that you should leave and call the DOJ (or write a letter, which is more likely to get a response) AND inform others.
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  #45  
Old 02-23-2011, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevans View Post
Not trying to be critical of Roger's as much as wanting to recognize the dealers that do take the time to do PPTs. I wouldn't have bothered Roger's for a simple PPT but I was already going there to do another transfer through them. They were willing to do the transfer but not the PPT.
Being a kitchen table FFL, keep in mind that if the FFL does not sell handguns (such as Cinco Grande), they are not required to perform PPT on handguns.
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A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #46  
Old 02-23-2011, 6:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddjob View Post
I'm not a FFL, but I would look at it like you do....Free advertisement as it forces customers to come in and look at your stuff....The buyer has to come in twice!
No kidding. The law requirements are basically giving you around 3 man-hours of captive audience with a customer.

You can't BUY marketing like that!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #47  
Old 02-23-2011, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kantstudien View Post
Just curious, where did you get this information?
From a similar thread here over a year ago.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #48  
Old 02-23-2011, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier415 View Post
Maybe I am just blind, but I did not see anything in that section regarding the days and hours that dealers must conduct PPTs, nor any language preventing them from limiting the days and times they conduct them.

Not advocating for it or trying to be a Richard Cranium...but I really am interested in seeing the PC.
Found this DOJ Bulletin. It answers many questions. Note the last line that I put in bold red. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

TO: ALL LICENSED FIREARMS DEALERS, CHIEFS OF POLICE, SHERIFFS
OFFICES, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS

This Information Bulletin is intended to remind dealers of their obligations regarding private party transfers including the 10-day waiting period and the fees that firearms dealers are permitted by law to charge when conducting these transfers. Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.
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  #49  
Old 02-23-2011, 7:12 PM
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If you look at the CA PC that was quoted here, it says that the FFL has to do a PPT upon request.

Quote:
Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request
This does not allow the FFL to say that they only do it on certain days or times. It seems pretty clear.
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  #50  
Old 02-23-2011, 7:16 PM
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You guys took it a step further.
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  #51  
Old 02-24-2011, 6:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Found this DOJ Bulletin. It answers many questions. Note the last line that I put in bold red. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

TO: ALL LICENSED FIREARMS DEALERS, CHIEFS OF POLICE, SHERIFFS
OFFICES, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS

This Information Bulletin is intended to remind dealers of their obligations regarding private party transfers including the 10-day waiting period and the fees that firearms dealers are permitted by law to charge when conducting these transfers. Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.
Thats just what I was looking for. Thank you!
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Originally Posted by harmoniums View Post
Absolutely, I've refused sale before.
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  #52  
Old 02-24-2011, 6:28 AM
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From the same bulletin:

Quote:
Firearms dealers that violate these laws may be subject to civil or criminal penalties and/or required to pay restitution to parties that have been overcharged.
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  #53  
Old 02-24-2011, 2:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshinoro2007 View Post
The punks as Fowlers pull this crap, thus they will never get any more business from me. Not only that, they knowingly sold me a lemon used gun, and then made me go through the maker to fix it. They will hopefully go out of business.
I know the OP's store was not Fowlers/Stockade but they limit hours on the week and none on weekend. I've done it on weekdays w/o incident though.

I for one feel guilty if I don't buy or give extra business to FFL's that do legal time and fee PPT's w/o attitude.

I just bought a $70 gun at Ammo Bros PPT and ended up spending another $60 in the shop, the dros fee of course, and I'm going to pick up abougt $20 worth of other trinkets when I go pick up.

It's foolish to alienate customers especially long term loyal gun hobby ones. You can get away with that during the Obama craze,panic buying and gouging but not so much in this economy.

I still spend $1000's every year on guns and accesories and ammo. Some places earn my business, some places I'd not piss on the owner and workers if they were on fire.

Just as much as they hate PPT's, I hate doing them too but it's law.
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  #54  
Old 02-27-2011, 11:09 AM
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I am sick of all of these complainings to our FFLs. I am mainly sick because OPs are going to complain and they don't mention the shops name.

This kind of post doesn't help the community if ever the shops are even doing what they are being complained at.

I am not saying that this and other threads, like this, are invalid but can the OPs have the diligence to mention the shops name? What are they being afraid of?
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  #55  
Old 02-27-2011, 1:51 PM
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Not listing the FFLs name is a personal decision. Instead of making this post you could've just asked me via PM who the FFL was like many other people did.
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  #56  
Old 03-01-2011, 5:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
the law says that they must act promptly in doing a PPT. Claiming that they only do PPTs on certain days is not acting promptly. Requiring PPT customers wait until there are no other customers in the shop (which may take hours) is not acting promptly.



right now, many FFLs get a pass on these PPT violations because, as some people claim, "we need all the FFLs we can get in CA" and sic'ing CADOJ on them would reduce the number of FFLs. But at some point, enough will be enough, it may get to the point where each and every time an FFL violates the law regarding PPTs that a phone call to CADOJ will be in order.
you are misreading the law. it refers to processing paperwork, not customer service. anyone can refuse to do business with anyone for any reason. i do it all the time.
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  #57  
Old 03-01-2011, 5:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggruber View Post
you are misreading the law. it refers to processing paperwork, not customer service. anyone can refuse to do business with anyone for any reason. i do it all the time.
You need to read the rest of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Found this DOJ Bulletin. It answers many questions. Note the last line that I put in bold red. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

TO: ALL LICENSED FIREARMS DEALERS, CHIEFS OF POLICE, SHERIFFS
OFFICES, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS

This Information Bulletin is intended to remind dealers of their obligations regarding private party transfers including the 10-day waiting period and the fees that firearms dealers are permitted by law to charge when conducting these transfers. Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.
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  #58  
Old 03-01-2011, 10:01 AM
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While a FFL can refuse to provide any service to a specific person for any reason or no reason, that does not allow the FFL to refuse to provide specific services which are required by law as a FFL under State law.

You could refuse to allow a person to go on your property or face trespassing charges. That way they could not request a PPT, but then they also could not buy anything else either.

I have to wonder how it would be viewed if you refuse to provide ANY services to a specific person and then that person wants to do a PPT. Under the law, you can not refuse to do a PPT (unless it is for a handgun and you don't sell handguns) and you can not limit the days or hours for PPTs.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
While a FFL can refuse to provide any service to a specific person for any reason or no reason, that does not allow the FFL to refuse to provide specific services which are required by law as a FFL under State law.

You could refuse to allow a person to go on your property or face trespassing charges. That way they could not request a PPT, but then they also could not buy anything else either.

I have to wonder how it would be viewed if you refuse to provide ANY services to a specific person and then that person wants to do a PPT. Under the law, you can not refuse to do a PPT (unless it is for a handgun and you don't sell handguns) and you can not limit the days or hours for PPTs.
I would think there has to be caveats to this for "suspicious" sales or activities, or AW firearms...handguns or long guns. I mean the way it's being put here, if I bring my registered assault weapon in for a PPT an FFL can't refuse.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:01 AM
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I posted something similar almost a year ago, I had this problem at "The Stockade" which also has the same owner as Fowlers. They refused to do a ppt because it was the weekend. I have purchased several guns and a safe from them, not to mention reloading material on a regular basis. I understand their position on not making money on the deal, but the day I was there for the ppt, three sales people were hanging out in the corner shooting the breeze, and the attitude in the air was incredible. I have not been there since, and the guy Bob who was the only nice knowledgeable guy there has since opened up "Field Time" gun shop right down the street. I highly recommend field time to anybody in the oc area, or ades, straightline tactical in anaheim does ffl to ffl for 50 dollars, and that includes dros. I hope this new competion in the area will spur stockade/fowlers to get their head out of their **S and start treating people right, as I dont wish for them to fold up shop. Competion is good in my book for the consumer.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:12 AM
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It is not legal for a place to refuse to do a PPT during normal business hours.

I would think that there should not be an issue for refusing to do a PPT if the FFL believed that the person was doing something illegal, such as a strawman purchase. The BATF says that you can refuse to do a transfer for anyone for any reason.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It is not legal for a place to refuse to do a PPT during normal business hours.

I would think that there should not be an issue for refusing to do a PPT if the FFL believed that the person was doing something illegal, such as a strawman purchase. The BATF says that you can refuse to do a transfer for anyone for any reason.
This was not the case here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtmkinsd View Post
I would think there has to be caveats to this for "suspicious" sales or activities, or AW firearms...handguns or long guns. I mean the way it's being put here, if I bring my registered assault weapon in for a PPT an FFL can't refuse.
Yes they can refuse then. It's illegal to PPT a registered assault weapon.
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  #63  
Old 03-01-2011, 11:48 AM
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The place was violating the law by refusing to do the PPT without a valid reason as to why not. As said, the business can not limit the days or hours to do a PPT, but unless people report them, nothing will happen. If the DOJ refuses to do anything, then you need to complain to your elected politicians and keep going up the chain until something happens. Also, report this to any firearms rights organizations that you are a member of.

I doubt that a newspaper would publish a letter to the editor saying that the CA DOJ is refusing to enforce firearms laws in this case.
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Old 03-01-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post

right now, many FFLs get a pass on these PPT violations because, as some people claim, "we need all the FFLs we can get in CA" and sic'ing CADOJ on them would reduce the number of FFLs. But at some point, enough will be enough, it may get to the point where each and every time an FFL violates the law regarding PPTs that a phone call to CADOJ will be in order.
I don't think we need more crappy FFLs. After all, is a crappy FFL really any better than no FFL if you can't get service done there?
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Old 03-01-2011, 12:56 PM
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I think we need a boycott thread and just throw these ffls under the bus. I have heard so many dumb thing its amazing. I have been in a FFL and the owner was yelling "paying customers i can help" and ignoring anyone else.
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"What you've just posted is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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  #66  
Old 03-01-2011, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jtmkinsd View Post
I would think there has to be caveats to this for "suspicious" sales or activities, or AW firearms...handguns or long guns. I mean the way it's being put here, if I bring my registered assault weapon in for a PPT an FFL can't refuse.
Not a valid comparison as you would be asking the FFL to perform an illegal transaction.
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Old 03-01-2011, 4:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Not a valid comparison as you would be asking the FFL to perform an illegal transaction.
Well, "suspicious" does not = illegal.

I'm with kemasa on this...there are a number of reasons I might refuse to perform a PPT...but as has been stated, it's not what the main problem posed in this thread is.
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Last edited by jtmkinsd; 03-01-2011 at 4:12 PM..
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Old 03-01-2011, 4:13 PM
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I'm not suprise. Ling's gun store in Hacienda Heights, when I called to ask for PPT he laughed and hung up on me. Never liked that store, can't touch anything, can't put your arm on the glass counter. Just an overall jerk. Can't believe I purchased my first gun from him. He will insult you if you don't spend big money on a nicer gun and call you cheap and a person like you should buy a gun like this blah blah blah. Worse experience ever.
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Old 03-01-2011, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jtmkinsd View Post
Well, "suspicious" does not = illegal.

I'm with kemasa on this...there are a number of reasons I might refuse to perform a PPT...but as has been stated, it's not what the main problem posed in this thread is.

Transferring a registered assault weapon via a PPT is illegal. That is the example you gave.
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Old 03-01-2011, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Transferring a registered assault weapon via a PPT is illegal. That is the example you gave.
The point being...there are reasons I can refuse to do a PPT...that is an extreme example.
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Old 03-01-2011, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by c20rj View Post
but the day I was there for the ppt, three sales people were hanging out in the corner shooting the breeze,
So you're saying it was a typical day.

I went in there a couple of years ago to look at handguns for my wife.

I walked around the display cases while the employees were chatting. Finally got their attention, one pipes up "Help ya?"
"Ya, I'm looking for a handgun for my wife"
"I made that mistake once"....

Then he walked out the door to light up a smoke!
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